Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:51 pm

It seems like people don't understand that fixture theft from homes is already in the game. It can be done. Id argue it can even be done without Gimping yourself mechanically.
You're assuming an awful lot about what I do and do not understand. I understand that this is already in the game, and I think that it is a bad thing.


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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Drowboy » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:10 pm

The idea of x is a privilege not a right is completely nothing. It's a video game. Everything is a privilege.

However: it's a video game, and things that are objectively unfun and non-interactive should be kept out of it.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Chomper173 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:21 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:10 pm
The idea of x is a privilege not a right is completely nothing. It's a video game. Everything is a privilege.

However: it's a video game, and things that are objectively unfun and non-interactive should be kept out of it.


Losing pvp is unfun, should be removed.
The rez sickness timer is unfun, should be removed.

Etc etc. Theres a long list of things that by your logic should be removed depending on whatever player you talk to.

The fact is, on arelith, not all players get to own homes. That is not fun for some of those players. Players can get evicted from their homes in some cases. That also probably isn't fun for those players.

So yes, the idea of x is a privledge and not a right is completely relevant when we are playing on a server in which some PCs get perks and benefits that other pcs don't have.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

As has been explained at length in this thread "It could be cool for the thief" is not really a compelling argument in favor. The issue with the theft system is not that it's currently insufficiently cool for a thief, it's that it too often really miserable for the victim in ways that are quite unfair. It leaves the victim with no roleplay, no clues to follow and (as Seven has aptly explained), even if there is roleplay and some sort of clue to follow, there's often no recourse to get your stuff back, it's just gone.
This is kinda the thing that baffles me.

For chest items? Sure ok this makes an amount of sense. But for fixtures far less so.

Again - keeping in mind that someone can only steal ONE fixture per OOC day.

* WHy would they steal anything that wasn't valueble, in some way or other? So whilst it is possible bespoke items of furnature would be the target, it's more likely rp items or items of information would be taken.
* Having stolen the valuble thing, why would they trash it? I can see maybe doing it a little but I don't think that'd be the vast majority.
* If they steal multiple things from you in one sitting - report
* If they keep on stealing from you - report. We also deal with people stealing fixtures from the same person continuously - esp if you keep replacing it
* What are they going to do with the fixture when they have it? I mean sure, yeah, some people might trashbin/or bash them. But I think the vast majority would use them for other purposes.
*If it's unique, it's probably findable. It's unlikely people will walk around with said fixture in their inventory - they're bulky after all.
*Which brings me to the fact there are then multiple ways of trying to get your precious fixture back. Offer to pay the thief to get it back. Put up Wanted posters. Pay other thieves to look around quarters for the item. Put up assassin bounties on people whom you think are the thieves. Ect. Ect. Ect.

Also everyone is now focusing on fixture theft, what about the other bonuses to being able to enter quarters?

*Gathering secret information
*Hiding in on meetings and listening in
*Squatting!
*Assassinations
*Coming in and cleaning up for people
*Adding false evidence in someones house to get them in trouble.
*Leaving secret messages

All these and more would become far more accessable if people could enter quarters with a little more ease.
I think it's worth the risk of maybe perhaps loosing the occasional fixture.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Chomper173 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:47 pm


Also everyone is now focusing on fixture theft, what about the other bonuses to being able to enter quarters?

*Gathering secret information
*Hiding in on meetings and listening in
*Squatting!
*Assassinations
*Coming in and cleaning up for people
*Adding false evidence in someones house to get them in trouble.
*Leaving secret messages
I'm not sure myself, honestly, even though I'm debating that with other people who are worried about it.

All those things you mentioned would provide far more RP and positive stuff to the server than the negative detriment of people having to replace fixtures occasionally.

If it was really an issue you just ban fixture bashing in homes (though I think that's absurd because its just another benefit in the long list of owning a home that other players who don't wouldn't have).

The biggest thing here is right now quarters are so secure they effectively provide an ingame discord to plot which goes against the spirt of the rules of plotting on discords and other out of game venues.
Last edited by Chomper173 on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Xerah » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:51 pm

If I had to make a guess, I'd assume its because a lot of players who've had homes for awhile have gotten use to the nigh impenetrable security they provide and don't want to lose that IG protection they are afforded.
I feel like you have some very selective reading abilities in this thread with a rather angry/aggressive tone. Pretty much everyone has said that breaking into quarters is probably okay but stealing from the chest gets very unfun.

People love to be able to do things with no risk and quarter theft is one of those things when you can just check if someone is online ahead of time.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Chomper173 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:58 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:51 pm
If I had to make a guess, I'd assume its because a lot of players who've had homes for awhile have gotten use to the nigh impenetrable security they provide and don't want to lose that IG protection they are afforded.
I feel like you have some very selective reading abilities in this thread with a rather angry/aggressive tone. Pretty much everyone has said that breaking into quarters is probably okay but stealing from the chest gets very unfun.

People love to be able to do things with no risk and quarter theft is one of those things when you can just check if someone is online ahead of time.
I removed that part of my comment then because my intent isn't to have an angry/aggressive tone and I don't believe I have one arguing for easier housing breakins than people telling me my point is "utterly invalidated" and "means nothing".

And I dont really appreciate the insult to my "selective reading" and having you do the same to me since I've been debating specifically about fixtures, not chests.

However, the argument of no risk actions goes both ways. I see your point regarding theft and risk. That point also applies to plotting, because right now people can plot with 0 risk in their home.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:09 pm

However, the argument of no risk actions goes both ways. I see your point regarding theft and risk. That point also applies to plotting, because right now people can plot with 0 risk in their home.
...

In fairness this isn't entirely true, as there is still scrying. And a really clever thief might be able to sneak in via other means. But I do think that your point holds fairly true none the less.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Nitro » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:23 pm

Chomper173 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:58 pm
However, the argument of no risk actions goes both ways. I see your point regarding theft and risk. That point also applies to plotting, because right now people can plot with 0 risk in their home.
Chomper173 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:15 pm
It seems like people don't understand that fixture theft from homes is already in the game. It can be done. Id argue it can even be done without Gimping yourself mechanically.

What the anti-break in argument seems to be asking for is for a rule exemption/change for home owners only.
My dude, you can't have your cake and eat it. Either your argument is that it's too hard to break into quarters, and should be made easier to enable spy RP, or that breaking into quarters is already easy enough to facilitate theft and therefore we don't need to keep it hard. Pick one, is spying 100% foolproof or are items currently at risk already?

As it currently stands, breaking into quarters is hard. You require a meme build and backup to do it, or you need to put yourself at risk and sneak in when someone else is. This is good, great even. The increased investments means that these builds are rare. Demonstrably so because quarter break-ins when people are offline are rare. And the other form is good because it forces some kind of interaction, hiding behind walls to dodge truesight sweeps, making actively sure not to get caught rather than just waltzing in when the owner is offline.

So in essence. All the things you advocate for being good about reducing quarter locks are already possible, but hard. You want to make them easier to reward those who can do break-ins and punish those who own quarters for... I guess wanting to keep some of their stuff as their own? I dunno, throughout this thread you've gone pretty hard in on the anti-quarter owner rhetoric which really is making me start to feel like you're bitter towards people who have managed to secure a quarter for themselves.

You're also talking a lot abut how the privilege of owning a quarter doesn't make you exempt from bashing and theft. But that's a weird argument to make when you're not arguing for a status quo, you're actively trying to change it. Currently one of the main draws for owning a quarter is the fact that you get a largely safe place to store things and do things that you don't want to have done in a public setting. So no, owning a quarter doesn't make you exempt from any rules, but it certainly gives you a great deal of protection from what others can do to harm you.

And a quickie, since you don't want to be accused of selective reading I'll bring a point back up that you seemed to swerve on the first time through when you were talking about how fixtures deserve to be publicly available.
Scondly. The reason these are often kept in private places are because if you leave them out anywhere public they will be wordlessly stolen by a thief that's impossible to identify, often to never be seen again.
And a quickie edit:
Theres at times over 400 people on arelith in game and it has something like 6000 players. Even if you're actively using the fixture to RP in your home (which is great), the vast majority of the playerbase is having no interaction with it.
And that's good. Not everyone needs to be involved with every plot or see the inside of every castle. The fact that an object or fixture is the center of an RP storyline affecting two dozen people doesn't mean it's being used poorly, if it's out in the open it's just one of a thousand other fixtures littering the server with no gravitas or plot.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Chomper173 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:17 pm


My dude, you can't have your cake and eat it. Either your argument is that it's too hard to break into quarters, and should be made easier to enable spy RP, or that breaking into quarters is already easy enough to facilitate theft and therefore we don't need to keep it hard. Pick one, is spying 100% foolproof or are items currently at risk already?

As it currently stands, breaking into quarters is hard. You require a meme build and backup to do it, or you need to put yourself at risk and sneak in when someone else is. This is good, great even. The increased investments means that these builds are rare. Demonstrably so because quarter break-ins when people are offline are rare. And the other form is good because it forces some kind of interaction, hiding behind walls to dodge truesight sweeps, making actively sure not to get caught rather than just waltzing in when the owner is offline.

So in essence. All the things you advocate for being good about reducing quarter locks are already possible, but hard. You want to make them easier to reward those who can do break-ins and punish those who own quarters for... I guess wanting to keep some of their stuff as their own? I dunno, throughout this thread you've gone pretty hard in on the anti-quarter owner rhetoric which really is making me start to feel like you're bitter towards people who have managed to secure a quarter for themselves.

You're also talking a lot abut how the privilege of owning a quarter doesn't make you exempt from bashing and theft. But that's a weird argument to make when you're not arguing for a status quo, you're actively trying to change it. Currently one of the main draws for owning a quarter is the fact that you get a largely safe place to store things and do things that you don't want to have done in a public setting. So no, owning a quarter doesn't make you exempt from any rules, but it certainly gives you a great deal of protection from what others can do to harm you.

And a quickie, since you don't want to be accused of selective reading I'll bring a point back up that you seemed to swerve on the first time through when you were talking about how fixtures deserve to be publicly available.
I'll try to re-explain my point because I feel you're misunderstanding it.

Its can be too hard to break into quarters to facilitate spying, pvping, assassinations, etc all while still being doable. That's the case now.

Also the case now - fixtures can be stolen. Its also equally hard to do (although it seems some people believe it is already too low risk in its current form)

The fact is, if someone is fixture griefing, they could be doing it right now or if there were no locks at all and as was mentioned in this thread that is a reportable offense. The only difference between locks and no locks is the amount of effort it takes to do so.

Opening up the long list of positive RP encounters by making it easier to facilitate spying, framings, Assassinations, etc in the home far out weighs the negative of fixture bashing becoming more common place. As I previously stated if fixture issues become a major rampant problem, this could be addressed in other ways.

And as it turns out, the PC I'm playing does currently own a quarters. And I'd personally enjoy if people were able to more commonly attempt invasions of the home. My stance on the matter is they should not be as risk free as they currently are.

I do vehemently disagree with the notion that just because I, you, or anyone else who does own a quarters isn't online it should be "safe". Tons of players who don't have quarters cant get these benefits. If quarters were more available, or were easier to police the activity level of the owner id have a different view perhaps. As it stands, I've logged a few hundred hours of play over the last three weeks in various time zones and seen more than a few quarters owned by pcs I haven't seen online a single time. Quarters should be owned by active pcs, and while that could be its entire own thread and discussion, it still has some relevance. If you set up a camp outside its very vulnerable and you need to regularly patrol it to keep it safe. If you aren't active, it might get dismantled and thats a risk you take. I don't believe housing should so completely protect players from the risk of having to defend their stuff and having to remain active.

As for the publically available fixture vses the one in a private quarters my point was simply that a fixture in a private quarters can and should be used for rp, but its also doesn't see the vast majority of the player base when its used in that manner. You seem to have a stance that fixtures out in the open world are somehow less valuable than one in the house and I would absolutely disagree. Just because fixtures in the open world don't happen to have their personal plot of being an antique doesn't mean that they dont add rp and value to the world.

I understand I'm taking an unpopular opinion here because I also would be annoyed with losing a time investment, rare item, etc. Who wouldn't? I just dislike the level of protection currently given by quarters, and am personally fine with losing some fixtures if it means the wider RP possibilities are more readily accessible.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:46 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm
* Having stolen the valuble thing, why would they trash it? I can see maybe doing it a little but I don't think that'd be the vast majority.
Griefing, mostly. I think you're far more charitable re: the intentions of an average housebreaker than I am. My most recent experience with a widescale destruction of furniture within a quarter was the complete annihilation of a player library by thieves, who just binned the bookshelves 1/day until the library was gone, so near as I could tell, out of nothing but spite for the character who had assembled the library in question. The player who made the library reported it, but was informed that no rules were broken since no more than 1/day got taken. In this light, I'm not particularly reassured that griefing that does not break any rules will be addressed (or put another way, I've been here too long to believe that the "be nice" rule has any meaningful teeth as a deterrent to griefers).

I will confess, I am certainly more worried about chest items than about fixtures; every fixture I really, really care about has its description saved somewhere in case I need to remake it for any reason.

The one thing I'm most concerned about re: fixtures is someone making off with an entire bookshelf full of player-authored books/notebooks, since the amount of replacement effort involved goes beyond just making and re-describing a new fixture. You could probably fix this with a system whereby bookshelf theft was replaced by copying a single book on the shelf per break-in, though, and it would accomplish whatever spying aim you wanted to preserve.


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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by OleBlighty » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:05 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm
As has been explained at length in this thread "It could be cool for the thief" is not really a compelling argument in favor. The issue with the theft system is not that it's currently insufficiently cool for a thief, it's that it too often really miserable for the victim in ways that are quite unfair. It leaves the victim with no roleplay, no clues to follow and (as Seven has aptly explained), even if there is roleplay and some sort of clue to follow, there's often no recourse to get your stuff back, it's just gone.
This is kinda the thing that baffles me.

For chest items? Sure ok this makes an amount of sense. But for fixtures far less so.

Again - keeping in mind that someone can only steal ONE fixture per OOC day.

* WHy would they steal anything that wasn't valueble, in some way or other? So whilst it is possible bespoke items of furnature would be the target, it's more likely rp items or items of information would be taken.
* Having stolen the valuble thing, why would they trash it? I can see maybe doing it a little but I don't think that'd be the vast majority.
* If they steal multiple things from you in one sitting - report
* If they keep on stealing from you - report. We also deal with people stealing fixtures from the same person continuously - esp if you keep replacing it
* What are they going to do with the fixture when they have it? I mean sure, yeah, some people might trashbin/or bash them. But I think the vast majority would use them for other purposes.
*If it's unique, it's probably findable. It's unlikely people will walk around with said fixture in their inventory - they're bulky after all.
*Which brings me to the fact there are then multiple ways of trying to get your precious fixture back. Offer to pay the thief to get it back. Put up Wanted posters. Pay other thieves to look around quarters for the item. Put up assassin bounties on people whom you think are the thieves. Ect. Ect. Ect.

Also everyone is now focusing on fixture theft, what about the other bonuses to being able to enter quarters?

*Gathering secret information
*Hiding in on meetings and listening in
*Squatting!
*Assassinations
*Coming in and cleaning up for people
*Adding false evidence in someones house to get them in trouble.
*Leaving secret messages

All these and more would become far more accessable if people could enter quarters with a little more ease.
I think it's worth the risk of maybe perhaps loosing the occasional fixture.
I have experienced multiple thefts from quarters that either I or friends have owned, and it has resulted in engaging, interesting, and long-term rp exactly...zero times.

I strongly disagree that it needs to be made easier for people to break in to quarters.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by the grim yeeter » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:35 pm

GrumpyCat, I think you are being a little too naive and forgiving here.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm
* WHy would they steal anything that wasn't valueble, in some way or other?
To cause damage.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

* Having stolen the valuble thing, why would they trash it?
To cause damage.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

* If they steal multiple things from you in one sitting - report
* If they keep on stealing from you - report. We also deal with people stealing fixtures from the same person continuously - esp if you keep replacing it
Yes, sure, but reporting isn't fun. People don't play a game to have to report fellow players for displaying questionable and/or poor behaviour. If a system can be improved such that it becomes more griefer-proof, it should in most (if not all) cases, especially when no roleplay was being had in the original system at all anyway (and by now, a good number of players have mentioned in this thread that they have, indeed, gained zero roleplay from all the times they have been the victim of quarter-looting and/or break-ins).
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

* What are they going to do with the fixture when they have it? I mean sure, yeah, some people might trashbin/or bash them. But I think the vast majority would use them for other purposes.
See above. You're vastly overestimating player integrity here.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

All these and more would become far more accessable if people could enter quarters with a little more ease.
I think it's worth the risk of maybe perhaps loosing the occasional fixture.
I, like most of the others here, very strongly disagree.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Gouge Away » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:39 pm

Possibly fixtures could be protected? As in if you don't have your name on the quarter you can't move or remove them?

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Chomper173 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:28 pm

Yes, sure, but reporting isn't fun. People don't play a game to have to report fellow players for displaying questionable and/or poor behaviour. If a system can be improved such that it becomes more griefer-proof, it should in most (if not all) cases, especially when no roleplay was being had in the original system at all anyway (and by now, a good number of players have mentioned in this thread that they have, indeed, gained zero roleplay from all the times they have been the victim of quarter-looting and/or break-ins).
I agree with your statements about reporting and having to deal with that not being fun. Griefing obviously shouldn't be occurring.

However I do want to point out that the claim "A good number of players" just isn't statistically true.

Taken from this thread (which is older, granted, but it is the most recent player statistics measurement we have to use) - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956&start=25#p196177

As of me posting this there are 64 posts in this thread, many of which are multiple posts by one person. For the sake of ease well just use the 64 posts.

64 / 2565 (the number of distinct players since its more accurate than overall player database #s, since that's near 30000 and many of those players may be inactive) is. 0249 or 2.49% of the total player population.

Thats statistically insignificant to draw a conclusion that the majority of players feel this way (and likewise to draw a conclusion the other way as well).

If anything it would indicate that a very small percentage of players have had a bad enough experience to be this vocal about it.

Edit: and I should add even that claim isn't necessarily true either because there are other factors that could effect it.

Point is, were looking at a very small number of people discussing this issue in this thread.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Mattamue » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 pm

I haven't said anything because the sentiment on the side of rp-less theft have been willfully ignorant at best.

All the other pvp rules require rp. The fact that quarter theft, fixture theft, and fixture destruction doesn't is an oversight that should be fixed.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Drowboy » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:09 pm

Mattamue wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 pm
I haven't said anything because the sentiment on the side of rp-less theft have been willfully ignorant at best.

All the other pvp rules require rp. The fact that quarter theft, fixture theft, and fixture destruction doesn't is an oversight that should be fixed.
Succinct and accurate.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by TheBlueWizard » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm

Just to wade in with my own completely unfounded, newbie opinion again...

But fixture theft? Is it really such a big deal to lose a fixture in a quarter you own?

Surely if it has that much sentimental meaning for you/your character you'd have some kind of ... back-up measure in place. Like taking a screenshot of the description or whatever. 'cos at the end of the day, that's the only thing that makes these fixtures at all special. The individualised descriptions and stuff. Even message boards. Yeah, it might take a while, but if it's a antiqued message board that has no further additions to it, then whats the harm in taking screenshots of each message as a back-up?

Hell, wouldn't you do that anyway? Just in case something happens IRL, and you happen to lose your quarter due to not being able to log in frequently enough?

I'd say I'm also of the opinion of hoarding an antique message board/fixture for yourself is a bit ... selfish. Don't know about other people, but I love going around reading all the descriptions of fixtures/message boards I can find that look a bit old. Helps give newer players like me a sense of what's actually happened on Arelith in the past.

And I've gotta be honest too, but, I really don't understand the whole sentimentally over not wanting to lose fixtures. If I had something precious and individualised that was a fixture, I'd save a screenshot of the description, and possibly just remake the damn thing if it got nicked. IC, yeah, there's special significance. But people seem to begrudgingly consider the current act of quarter theft an almost OOC act and inconvenience. So, just deal with it in an OOC way too if you have to, and remake the fixture... or even better, generate some RP from your being stolen from by asking someone to make a replacement. Give you a chance to explain to a new crafter what you're after/why it meant to so much.

If player owned chests were 100% unpickable, so no item theft could be done, then great! I'm also of the opinion that being able to break into quarters could facilitate and generate some great RP. Not played often enough or got involved enough to see it myself, but I do find it utterly daft that apparently personal quarters are impenetrable fortresses that players can use to IC plot, scheme etc,.. with only a ridiculously slim chance to be spied upon in the current set-up.

At the end of the day I don't think anyone is championing for like a ... DC 50 lock on quarters. Just something more manageable for like... a Rogue who's take SF:OP and ESF:OP just to be able to break into things. As it stands it's damn near impossible to break a 127 DC.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 pm

OleBlighty wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:05 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm
I have experienced multiple thefts from quarters that either I or friends have owned, and it has resulted in engaging, interesting, and long-term rp exactly...zero times.

I strongly disagree that it needs to be made easier for people to break in to quarters.
Just to be absolutly clear- we're not talking chest thefts here. We're talking fixture thefts. Which can still be really lame, but have the tendency to be less lame.

At the end of the day I don't think anyone is championing for like a ... DC 50 lock on quarters. Just something more manageable for like... a Rogue who's take SF:OP and ESF:OP just to be able to break into things. As it stands it's damn near impossible to break a 127 DC.
This. I am not arguing that anyone should enter a quarter. I'm arguing that say, a lock dc of 80-100 or some such. Still a significant cost.
The one thing I'm most concerned about re: fixtures is someone making off with an entire bookshelf full of player-authored books/notebooks, since the amount of replacement effort involved goes beyond just making and re-describing a new fixture. You could probably fix this with a system whereby bookshelf theft was replaced by copying a single book on the shelf per break-in, though, and it would accomplish whatever spying aim you wanted to preserve.
Yeah, that's a very reasonable concern actually. We'd have to make that illegal.



But of course, none of what I'm talking of could be considered possible if chests are still free for all.

As I said, I'm in favour of more access to quarters, not so much of thefts from chests.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by OleBlighty » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:04 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 pm
OleBlighty wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:05 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm
I have experienced multiple thefts from quarters that either I or friends have owned, and it has resulted in engaging, interesting, and long-term rp exactly...zero times.

I strongly disagree that it needs to be made easier for people to break in to quarters.
Just to be absolutly clear- we're not talking chest thefts here. We're talking fixture thefts. Which can still be really lame, but have the tendency to be less lame.



I meant fixtures as well. There have been unique statues, altars, etc stolen with absolutely 0 RP after the fact despite attempts to hunt down the thieves, offering rewards and questioning "enemies" who could have had valid in-character reasons for doing that.
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Nor care I for comely lasses!
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I'm th' most offendin' soul alive!"

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Drowboy » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:08 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:35 pm
GrumpyCat, I think you are being a little too naive and forgiving here.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm
* WHy would they steal anything that wasn't valueble, in some way or other?
To cause damage.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

* Having stolen the valuble thing, why would they trash it?
To cause damage.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

* If they steal multiple things from you in one sitting - report
* If they keep on stealing from you - report. We also deal with people stealing fixtures from the same person continuously - esp if you keep replacing it
Yes, sure, but reporting isn't fun. People don't play a game to have to report fellow players for displaying questionable and/or poor behaviour. If a system can be improved such that it becomes more griefer-proof, it should in most (if not all) cases, especially when no roleplay was being had in the original system at all anyway (and by now, a good number of players have mentioned in this thread that they have, indeed, gained zero roleplay from all the times they have been the victim of quarter-looting and/or break-ins).
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

* What are they going to do with the fixture when they have it? I mean sure, yeah, some people might trashbin/or bash them. But I think the vast majority would use them for other purposes.
See above. You're vastly overestimating player integrity here.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

All these and more would become far more accessable if people could enter quarters with a little more ease.
I think it's worth the risk of maybe perhaps loosing the occasional fixture.
I, like most of the others here, very strongly disagree.
This post says the same things I was going to say. Arelith's had bad faith 'technically not breaking any rules' wankers/griefers since, well, the day it was exposed to internet folk. There's no way anyone can say it doesn't. Anything that benefits griefers is going to be be, well, exploited by griefers, and so long as "well, technically, this is within the rules" works, it's not going to stop.

Opening the playerbase to more griefing opportunities, especially in a complwtely one-sided, offline no rp pvp interaction (something still not addressed) seems almost like a nyeh nyeh to people who don't have infinite free time to remake fixtures or whatever.
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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:54 am

Mattamue wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 pm
I haven't said anything because the sentiment on the side of rp-less theft have been willfully ignorant at best.

All the other pvp rules require rp. The fact that quarter theft, fixture theft, and fixture destruction doesn't is an oversight that should be fixed.
+1

It's unfortunate that those on the other side of the argument appear to have no experience whatsoever of what it is like to be on the receiving end of this. The lack of empathy has been astounding and extremely disappointing.

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by CNS » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:03 am

GrumpyCat. I made a joke post about a script earlier.

Imagine I posted it for real in suggestions.

Once a month, to simulate npc breakins, a script runs that has a 5% chance of stealing from a chest and a 5% chance of deleting one fixture.

I'm fairly certain you would reject it out of hand because it's a silly idea. But, the more I think about it, the more I realise any actual argument I can come up with against the script applies to player theft too. I'd even wager you have more chance of getting a dm to run a little quest to get your stuff back from a scripted theft than a player one.

In a less hypothetical world. I think most people in this thread and the wider game would be quite happy with a combo update that.

1) reduces lock and trap dc significantly, perhaps even as much as half
2) eliminates chest theft
3) stops fixture theft but allows copying of information from bookcases and noteboards

It seems a fairly easy way to give better access to quarter breaking rp that people including yourself want while not ruining the experience of having a quarter.

Also consider, it's 1 fixture per old day per player. But if you make getting in easier a lot more players have access to your quarters.

Also if someone let's a train of people into your quarters for whatever reason do you want to deal with that kind of report and investigation? Trying to work out who knows who and what was opportunistic and what was coordinated? Seems like you'd be bringing headaches onto the dm team for...questionable benefits?

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:24 am

TheBlueWizard wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm
Just to wade in with my own completely unfounded, newbie opinion again...

But fixture theft? Is it really such a big deal to lose a fixture in a quarter you own?
People keep forgetting that it can be one fixture per 24 hours, per player. If more than one player has it out for you, or even one player routinely, that's not going to be just one fixture (same goes for chest items). That said, even if it was just one fixture, this thread has not been about simply losing fixtures/items so much as it has specifically been about losing fixtures/items without roleplay or the ability to react to the theft at all.
TheBlueWizard wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm
Surely if it has that much sentimental meaning for you/your character you'd have some kind of ... back-up measure in place. Like taking a screenshot of the description or whatever. 'cos at the end of the day, that's the only thing that makes these fixtures at all special. The individualised descriptions and stuff. Even message boards. Yeah, it might take a while, but if it's a antiqued message board that has no further additions to it, then whats the harm in taking screenshots of each message as a back-up?

Hell, wouldn't you do that anyway? Just in case something happens IRL, and you happen to lose your quarter due to not being able to log in frequently enough?
You're missing the point. The point is, once more, that people will lose things without gaining any roleplay from it, and without being able to do anything about it (especially when it happens while you are offline). Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether the victim has all the messages saved in screenshots or not. It's the fact that they have to make another message board and type all those messages again with no roleplay gained from the theft. Depending on the amount of messages, that could take hours. And all that - I'll just say it once again to be sure people understand it finally - without roleplay/interaction with the thief. I do not come home from work to play Arelith only to have to find out the rest of my day will have to be spent on just typing over dozens of messages. It's discouraging, demotivating and not fun.

I'll quote Nitro to clarify:
Nitro wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:38 am
Taking one fixture per day isn't a rulebreak in the current rules, and often it only takes one for it to suck really badly. Someone breaks in once and steals a messageboard that represents dozens of hours of ingame work to assemble, a fixture made over 100 IG years ago by someone famous, that big statue you were working all night on and so on.

That still sucks, a lot.
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TheBlueWizard wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm
I'd say I'm also of the opinion of hoarding an antique message board/fixture for yourself is a bit ... selfish. Don't know about other people, but I love going around reading all the descriptions of fixtures/message boards I can find that look a bit old. Helps give newer players like me a sense of what's actually happened on Arelith in the past.
What? How can you call that selfish even? You say that as if that quarter is never to be entered by anyone but the owner, used as some kind of storage. A quarter is part of the in-game world. It can have visitors. Plots happen in there. Fixtures such as message boards are used.

I'll quote Scurvy Cur here:
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:33 pm
[...] The point of fixtures is for them to be viewable and present in the IG world, for a player's enjoyment and that of guests/visitors/etc. [...]
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TheBlueWizard wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm
And I've gotta be honest too, but, I really don't understand the whole sentimentally over not wanting to lose fixtures. If I had something precious and individualised that was a fixture, I'd save a screenshot of the description, and possibly just remake the damn thing if it got nicked. IC, yeah, there's special significance. But people seem to begrudgingly consider the current act of quarter theft an almost OOC act and inconvenience. So, just deal with it in an OOC way too if you have to, and remake the fixture... or even better, generate some RP from your being stolen from by asking someone to make a replacement. Give you a chance to explain to a new crafter what you're after/why it meant to so much.
You're just repeating yourself now. See my responses above.
TheBlueWizard wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm
[...] apparently personal quarters are impenetrable fortresses that players can use to IC plot, scheme etc,.. with only a ridiculously slim chance to be spied upon in the current set-up.

[...] As it stands it's damn near impossible to break a 127 DC.
And this is absolutely a good thing. In fact, as long as the current system regarding quarter theft is in place (see the two quotes below), quarters should become unbreakable even.
Mattamue wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 pm
All the other pvp rules require rp. The fact that quarter theft, fixture theft, and fixture destruction doesn't is an oversight that should be fixed.
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:23 pm
It remains, perplexingly, the one form of PvP in which no face-to-face interaction is required beforehand. [...]
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

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Re: Is Open Lock/Disable Trap basically redundant? Or am I mistaken

Post by Nodders » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:37 pm

So, this is obviously a hot issue and one close to many, many peoples' hearts... and as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, I think there's a pretty decent solution for people that want to play types of characters that do that.

NPC housing that can be burgled. It'd require overhauling to a mild degree of several cities to fit in appropriate and varied levels of housing (poor, middle class, wealthy), but it'd give such characters an outlet and a way to make money. Naturally, you'd want systems to go along with this - so, maybe it could be a similar thing to the seafaring update? Whenever you -burgle a home (potentially after finding an appropriate window or just going for the front door), it teleports you to a unique instance. Could be that you broke into a wizard's home and he has some very powerful protection, and you realize you dun goof'd. Or maybe you break into a wizard's home and he just keeps valuables laying all over and no protection, trusting the guard? Hell. Luck of Heroes feat could play in for people that take it at level 1 to give a better chance of picking a good house.

All I'm saying is, since I'm turning this into a more thought-out system than I cared to, is there's a way to incorporate NPCs into this to let people get their theft fantasies.
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