Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

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Skald Haldi
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Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Skald Haldi » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:52 pm

Does Arelith have an out-of-game place to store historical fixture descriptions?

Today, I typed (in a text editor) the description on a bunch of existing old well-written fixtures to make sure that if something happened to them, they'd be replaceable. These are NOT my fixtures, but I'd like to give respect to the original creators.

I expect others have done the same - but is there somewhere that descriptions like this are stored or saved?

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:55 pm

Not that I know of.
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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Kuma » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:07 am

Skald Haldi wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:52 pm
Does Arelith have an out-of-game place to store historical fixture descriptions?

Today, I typed (in a text editor) the description on a bunch of existing old well-written fixtures to make sure that if something happened to them, they'd be replaceable. These are NOT my fixtures, but I'd like to give respect to the original creators.

I expect others have done the same - but is there somewhere that descriptions like this are stored or saved?
This raises interesting questions on the conflict between continuity of the server, historical preservation, and what is essentially unrepentant metagaming.

The lack of historical preservation on the server beyond the efforts of a determined and, sometimes, bonkers few renders the IC zeitgeist particularly vulnerable to the revisionism of whomsoever is playing at that time, with a particular slant towards long-lived characters with an axe to grind. (Sometimes this skips the first part and manifests as "predownloaded" opinions of otherwise new characters. Good luck proving it to DMs though.)

On the other hand, that preservation is vulnerable to two things: IC destruction and vandalism, and OOC preservation with no real corresponding IC record.

The former is valid. Burning the records of the Cordorian Guard in a pyre when my character took over as Chancellor was a watershed moment that altered how Cordor operated for almost a full RL year and a half before the Guard was reformed. Questioning and correcting history, ICly, is a perfectly valid form of roleplay.

The latter is something I'm still struggling to wrestle with and don't have an easy answer to.

I have grown fond of many particular fixtures over my decade plus on this god forsaken children's fantasy roleplaying game - the Faerzress Cannon, Mesmer Coils (especially those I DIDN'T make), the Liber Diabolica, the Libris Celestia, inordinate paintings, statues and references, proclamations, declarations, condemnations - let me tell you I have archived a great many of them, and some of them (particularly things like announcements of Certain Eras) are on public view.

This public view has never really been confirmed or denied as accessible IC, as something a character can 'reference' or 'research'. This was the intention years ago (as stated by Mithreas a while back) but it never made it IG.

Is it right to replace something someone destroyed?

Is not the destruction as much an IC act as its creation?

A fixture may be iconic - does that render it immortal?

I don't have easy answers to this. Or any, really. Although a recent trend of just copypasting from the Encyclopedia Arelithica or other personal archives/logs under the guise of "IC research" concerns me in many regards.

anyway no there isnt and idk what do about it lol

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Marsi » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:55 am

I love the material history of Arelith, I'm a fanatic for 'old stuff', but I've come to accept that wanting things to stay the way they are forever, or to perfectly recall them exactly as they were, is not really what I want.

What makes historical objects, or even the history itself, special, is that it survived. There are billions of things we'll never know existed, and we just have to accept that -- things that were senselessly destroyed or lost. It's as much the same on Arelith, I feel.

In a twisted way, griefing is a feature, not a bug. As much as we'd all like as much RP as possible going into the vandalism of our favorite objects, it's a kind of force of nature, when viewed at a distance, that purges the system and keeps it vital, fresh, and most importantly, vacant. You might find a particular fixture cool, but I found the fixture that used to stand there five years ago cool too, and if I had things my way, your fixture would never have had the room to be placed there. And so on and so on.

It's unfortunate when the fixtures we like/created are destroyed, and I don't think there's anything wrong with making a Mk II now and then, but large-scale history/fixture preservation can very quickly become unhealthy, revisionist (in an OOC way) and most of all, self-defeating. Because, like I said, impermanence is what makes the things that did last special, and everyone sub-consciously cares less about fiat history that has been repeatedly downloaded from a giant Google Drive.

It's for this reason that I'm deeply suspicious of the recent urges to form some kind of Arelithian ministry of historical truth. It will almost certainly became the propaganda engine of neurotic individuals hoping to wield the kind of soft power that fact revising provides. It's happened.

I think historical preservation is an incredibly worthy undertaking - in game. I don't know if it's still in vogue, but when I had a character in the Knights of the Road, acting out the process of maintaining, protecting, and researching shrines and monuments was the core function of the faction.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Skibbles » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:00 pm

I've seen some characters go through great lengths to preserve stuff IC which is pretty cool but I don't know any central locations where stuff is saved OOC just in a general sense. I've heard that the Arcane Tower has, or at least used to, according to rumor, have backups of their books and stuff in case of total disaster. It certainly doesn't strike me as a bad idea when it comes to things that are presumably tangential to IG power struggles.

I absolutely save backups of every single thing I've ever made, but I'm also a prolific fixture/book maker and have faced accidental data loss more than once. It only takes one ill-timed crash, or one rampant griefer, to realize why it's important to keep your stuff saved just in case.

On rare occasions I've shared this stuff with other players who were interested in them but almost always it's more about nostalgia from years ago than anything impactful in game.

Like Kuma said there's probably no centralized location for historical stuff, but we should also question if having such a thing is a good idea.

On one hand it's wonderful that we as players value the work and creativity of players/characters long gone, but on the other hand perhaps it's precisely the difficulty in keeping track of it all that gives it its weight in the first place.
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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Curve » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:41 pm

When I first started Arelith the Hoarran statues at the Minmar Falls was really a big deal to my character, so were the Crow Totems on my next character. After those characters died off I got in the habit of having those fixtures be important or at the least respected by my subsequent characters. I have since come to realize that it was at best bending my characters in a negative way, and at worst some disgusting desire to have my character's action (read: my actions) or players/characters I respected mean more than they actually did. It is one of the things I look back on and cringe. It's a fine line between respecting the past and holding the server hostage with old non-relevant echoes. I have not found a black or white answer on this. But, I am far more careful of what drives my character's actions as a result of this revelation about myself and my roleplay.

I don't think it's cool to reproduce fixtures or books verbatim when your character was not the author or artist, though. To me it is blatant negative metagaming. Sucks when griefers grief, but it's not always griefers and sometimes it's very healthy for the server to be purged of it's heavy past.

Also, it is no good when players do historical research that makes their past characters look really cool and impactful.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:23 pm

My current PC with the help of like minded others have worked to uncover and piece together the past of Arelith. Mostly from the many, many player written books, posts, fixtures, and a few rare interviews. I must say the experience has been one of the most enjoyable personal quests. I never knew how much has happened over the servers life or the things players changed through action. That being said I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much if I didn't do it IG and instead read it off a website. Finding the lore and items long past and trying to preserve them IG is just part of what makes Arelith great. Who remembers first visiting Benwick and looking around to go "what the heck happened here?" Which in turn led to a personal quest to check books and ask around. There are many such places in Arelith and even more to which the stories have been lost, mostly likely to player actions.

Sibayad is a good example. I have found very little of its past other then a few mentions here and there which saddens me to no end. Much like life things are lost to time and held forgotten in some museum to be, we hope, looked upon in the future and remembered.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:02 pm

In a short way of saying it, the persistence of history and the relevant creation of themed backstory and history through the placement and usage of in game items that are manufactured from the fanbase and users that has endured through over a decade of play is one of the only reasons Arelith is attractive as more than 'just an MMO'.

The ability to leave a permanance, to make a difference, to leave behind small parts of your character in memorials or tombstones, to write full books and memoirs, reports and journals.... That is one of the defining factors that set's Arelith apart from any other community like it before and after.

I don't know of a single game out there that has the ability to allow a player character to Create, Rename, customize, describe and trade their items, furniture and props like NWN on Arelith does. Some servers here on NWN allow versions of it yes, but Arelith is unique in it's explosive amount of in game created history and it's ties to generations far before the current day.

Paintings... Swords... Cabinets with hidden details... Books with only 2 or 3 copies floating around... Personalized cloaks and armors with character baked in from characters that are rolled/dead... Wedding rings and Funeral Markers...

These aren't just items or things, and seeing them around the world makes Arelith something special. It makes the world seem that much more real. The Characters we create weave their own lives, and leave behind things to be remembered by, to be loved by, and the actions IC are not just completing quests or getting a bag of gold from doing some job. They are like real pen and paper, where the time spent by our DMs isn't just creating a small story that will come and go, but it represents hours and days of slaving away making unforgettable experiences, and then being able to keep that memory around and alive.

The Statue of Tug, the Headstones in the nook of the Bramblewood, The Gravestone of Nerelith in Baator, The Sundial of the Weatherstone, The Manzil Library, The Cracked Mirror in the Heartwood Grove.

One day, the server won't be able to handle SO MUCH... history and beauty. There will come a time when, the fixture limits are at their peak and these items WILL have to be moved or make room for new items, it's the way of progress and the way of making new memories. But I agree, we need to have a place for the best of them to be remembered...

Or, perhaps that over time, some of the most enduring markers be made permanent. Removed as player placed fixtures and installed by the Developers as unique textures to the land, to free up the space for new fixtures without needing to destroy what is there.

Kuma had a few good points that I thought a lot about as I read this a few times and I was working on my own response, because sadly, no. Not everything should be immortalized. Not even Most things should be immortalized.

We are working with our own evolving, beautiful history and we are reaching the point now that there are far more players that joined who know nothing about who the founders of the server are. We are more than 15 years past the opening of the server, and through that time we have seen players come and go, yet their marks live on in the memories we made here.

Forgetting Metagaming, I would say it would be a good thing to have a small selection of the In Game created items made permenant as a form of a physical history, and others it may be better to have a registry.

Perhaps even a proposition, something to bridge the gap between two. There are a lot of answers and as a community, I think it is important that we start thinking about our collective legacy, beyond just what we have today, and what we leave behind for those who come tomorrow.

Now... If you will excuse me, I just came up with a fantastic Idea for an Alt to explore one of these options, you may meet him soon.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:08 am

I've seen an increase in this fixation of Arelith history with the invention of the Notebook.

I think the Notebook is a bad thing and should be removed.

The Notebook has made this kind of preservation - this note-taking, archiving, and historical fascination - to an unhealthy new height. I find many parallels to modern woes around the management and flow of information in folks day-to-day lives.

Arelith's flow of information, unlike ever before, rivals that of some 20th C newspaper machine - not early pre-industrial Guttenberg, not medieval Dublin, not even 19th C empire.

I think this has had an affect on how we store, internalize, and think about Arelith's history. I don't think it's healthy. I think there's a lot of fixation on "forcing survival" of things and people and places that goes about it the wrong way.

As Kuma and Marsi said, Arelithian history is unique because there is an ebb and flow and it follows just the happenings of the server - the comings and goings, the flavours of the day, the creativity of its players.

And, I think there is an increasing reliance on text and "fact" as justification for, as Kuma put it, unrepentant metagaming. It's a real problem. We should be dialing back how we preserve and archive Arelith's stuff, not ramping it up.

So in short - unless it's in your character to do so, I wouldn't be doing this kind of thing. Some stories are meant to die out. Some arcs are meant to be unresolved. Some histories are meant to be forgotten. There is a kind poignant beauty to the forgetful nature of the server, and I think trying to undermine it with copying down fixture descriptions puts too much emphasis on being enduring, rather than embracing the temporal nature of the day.

Because - it means all the stuff that could happen tomorrow, or next month, or in 2022, is constantly compared and stressed against past events, and "oh no this happened this way" or "oh this person isn't as significant as X" or "this story is more boring than Y" or "how could you even say that? look, this book says your wrong" or "what are you talking about? you're not as knowledgeable as you think you are because I've read ALL of these great in-game books", etc.

It all touches at a similar elitism and exclusionary tone of, "you weren't there", "you didn't log in then", "you weren't around for it" - and that's deeply problematic.
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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Kessarin » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:41 pm

I support the preservation of game history through game methods and appreciate all the players who have stocked libraries and museums.

You’ve made my game experience richer for your efforts. Keep up the great work!
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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Flower Power » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:45 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:08 am
So in short - unless it's in your character to do so, I wouldn't be doing this kind of thing. Some stories are meant to die out. Some arcs are meant to be unresolved. Some histories are meant to be forgotten. There is a kind poignant beauty to the forgetful nature of the server, and I think trying to undermine it with copying down fixture descriptions puts too much emphasis on being enduring, rather than embracing the temporal nature of the day.

Because - it means all the stuff that could happen tomorrow, or next month, or in 2022, is constantly compared and stressed against past events, and "oh no this happened this way" or "oh this person isn't as significant as X" or "this story is more boring than Y" or "how could you even say that? look, this book says your wrong" or "what are you talking about? you're not as knowledgeable as you think you are because I've read ALL of these great in-game books", etc.

It all touches at a similar elitism and exclusionary tone of, "you weren't there", "you didn't log in then", "you weren't around for it" - and that's deeply problematic.
You know, I've been saying for years that it's good and okay to try to preserve the accomplishments of past players/characters, but not if it's getting in the way of telling new stories now for years; sadly, it's not a popular opinion.
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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by ElvenEdibles » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:49 pm

Kessarin wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:41 pm
I support the preservation of game history through game methods and appreciate all the players who have stocked libraries and museums.

You’ve made my game experience richer for your efforts. Keep up the great work!
+1

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Marsi » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:08 am
I've seen an increase in this fixation of Arelith history with the invention of the Notebook.

I think the Notebook is a bad thing and should be removed.

The Notebook has made this kind of preservation - this note-taking, archiving, and historical fascination - to an unhealthy new height. I find many parallels to modern woes around the management and flow of information in folks day-to-day lives.

Arelith's flow of information, unlike ever before, rivals that of some 20th C newspaper machine - not early pre-industrial Guttenberg, not medieval Dublin, not even 19th C empire.
I don't have a problem with Notebooks, but it fascinates me how Bookshelves turned history/player text from this diehard niche that most were remarkably ambivalent about, into this hilariously gamified Veblen good. It's like my wishes as a 2013 lore incel were granted by a monkey's paw, and now every adventurer is an amateur collector, and every home in Arelith *has* to have its library, complete with the arbitrary Arelithian canon in a display of middle-class prosperity that strikes me as our version of the mail-ordered Great Books.

Libraries have become this incredibly reliable peer to peer network, and books that were around at the right time have become gospel. Like others have said, when you allow things to persist they become codified and used as a crutch for contextualizing/storytelling. In a couple years there will be books that some dude just went and wrote that newbies will parrot as if it were carved into the crust of the earth itself.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Emotionaloverload » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:41 pm

The problems described above are a normal problem when it comes to books and information. Back in the day, today, IG. Always the same problem. Its probably more a human thing than it is a problem that can be fixed IG.

I'd prefer to see a lot more propaganda style books or misinformation books spread around.

I often play historian/loremaster type characters so I gather a lot of information but before IG libraries I would keep most of it in notebooks that are passed down (because you couldn't copy notebooks back then) if I didn't have the time, bulk of info or willingness to make a book to give to the staff (it used to be the only reliable way to keep a book in circulation). I love the new libraries. I think that being able to customize each library to what the group/settlement wants in there is great. It adds a layer of rp to the region.

That said, I don't think we should go out of the way to preserve fixtures OoC. What makes a fixture important is usually to the people that made it or the people that later find it cool. It should be up to those people to see it kept in tact. If they fade away then the safety the fixture had before should too until someone comes along that has reason to safeguard them. I don't agree with creating a new fixture with the same description if one is lost or damaged, without acknowledging that it is new and different.

History can be saved in books and stories. if your character really likes a fixture then it may be better to consider finding out the story of the fixture/the place/the event and writing about that than it would be to keep potentially remaking a fixture OoC.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:31 pm

This thread is depressing because it's dunking on everything I enjoy doing in game, in such detail that points to me as a player that I'm wondering if it's a roundabout way to try and talk about me without actually naming me. I dislike all of my favourite things being called "problem activities".


And I think notebooks are great. I think if people want to preserve historic fixtures, they could write books with descriptions of the fixture and its historic significance. In this way you can preserve something while also making room for the new. Dunking on people for taking this sort of initiative is kind of lame. A bookshelf with this sort of thing in a museum would be fun.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:43 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:31 pm
This thread is depressing because it's dunking on everything I enjoy doing in game, in such detail that points to me as a player that I'm wondering if it's a roundabout way to try and talk about me without actually naming me. I dislike all of my favourite things being called "problem activities".


And I think notebooks are great. I think if people want to preserve historic fixtures, they could write books with descriptions of the fixture and its historic significance. In this way you can preserve something while also making room for the new. Dunking on people for taking this sort of initiative is kind of lame. A bookshelf with this sort of thing in a museum would be fun.

Don't feel bad.

People are just being overly dramatic and verbose on account of a non-issue.

Out of all the things that could be, far more easily, pointed to as core issues that Arelith could improve upon, the ease of production of lore and history, by players, is not one of them. If anything, it's a plus. Who cares if a minority will find a way to cheese it. Those kinds of people will do that to everything and anything, given a chance to.

I shall return to my silence now.
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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Marsi » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:57 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:31 pm
This thread is depressing because it's dunking on everything I enjoy doing in game, in such detail that points to me as a player that I'm wondering if it's a roundabout way to try and talk about me without actually naming me. I dislike all of my favourite things being called "problem activities".


And I think notebooks are great. I think if people want to preserve historic fixtures, they could write books with descriptions of the fixture and its historic significance. In this way you can preserve something while also making room for the new. Dunking on people for taking this sort of initiative is kind of lame. A bookshelf with this sort of thing in a museum would be fun.
Ftr, I don't have a problem with bookshelves either, I just like to poke fun at a larger trend. This is discussion is all bigger picture, abstract stuff, I don't think anyone here is trying to call out what people find fun.

I would never take problem with in-game history/lore work - the opposite in fact. It's when it stops being "for fun" and stops being in-game that I start to question it.

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Re: Somewhere to share historical fixture descriptions?

Post by Kuma » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:49 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:31 pm
I think if people want to preserve historic fixtures, they could write books with descriptions of the fixture and its historic significance. In this way you can preserve something while also making room for the new. Dunking on people for taking this sort of initiative is kind of lame. A bookshelf with this sort of thing in a museum would be fun.
i like this idea a lot, actually

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