Sail

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Mister Badhorse
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Re: Sail

Post by Mister Badhorse » Sat May 22, 2021 10:28 pm

To be fair, those same Leviathan sailors can be citizens and own property in settlements, don't have tattoos that often amount to 'Die Pirate' RP, and are less likely to have based their entire character concept on being a sailor. Also, there are 2 ships designated for pirates, and they are both rentals and rarely armed as a result

Duchess Says
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Re: Sail

Post by Duchess Says » Sat May 22, 2021 10:41 pm

Yes I see nothing wrong with Sencliff ppl having easier access to Sail skill than anyone else considering they have quite a few drawbacks too.

And, this could lead to hiring neutral Sencliff-based mercenaries as sailors, there'd be great RP there if they're not trusted by the crew but their skill is useful. This would be very accurate to the High Seas era IRL too where even a royal navy crew would be dodgy and the line between legitimate and pirate was often fuzzy.

lordgaist
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Re: Sail

Post by lordgaist » Sat May 22, 2021 11:44 pm

I mean anything is possible. I'm not sure how the people of Cordor would feel about their navy having pirates on their ships though. Its a weird line to draw with historical accuracy translated over to D&D. If we go by that line Cordor will need about fifty ships per pirate ship and 1000 to 1 Guard to pirate ratio.

helitron
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Re: Sail

Post by helitron » Sun May 23, 2021 9:05 am

Just another 2 cents from my side here, also after reading some of the replies and based on discussions with other players that are involved in sailing-related RP. In general, the overhaul is amazing and adds a lot of potential, especially after the major changes that have been introduced to the sailing system a while ago. I very much appreciate the efforts put into this by ActionReplay and others.

However, please be aware that the number of players/characters that are interested in a constant sailing-related RP (pirates/navy/privateers) is very small. Already now, settlement ships like the Ironhelm, Timberfleet, Gulodrand Man-o-war, Dreadnought and even the Cordorian one are rarely used and out at sea, if not at all. Although the later one has a more active crew - kudos here to the Cordorian players that put effort to move the Leviathan out of port.

I think this is mainly due to the overhaul of the ship system and the danger of engaging into naval PvP that can destroy expensive ship upgrades. This was not an issue before, where ships could not be destroyed and PvP was restricted to boarding the other ship. Although I play a pirate, I have to admit that this gives Sencliff some kind of advantage, since pirates don't really care about upgrading the ships to top tiers and are more likely to accept the risk of loosing a ship. Furthermore, they are forced to sail because of writs. The result of this is that the seas are indeed ruled by Sencliff, and there is no incentive for other parties to get their ships out and show presence.

With the SAILS skill implemented and the requirements for some ships to be effective in sailing and naval PvP (as also posted by some of the posters above), I fear that there will be even less incentive for non-pirates to spend skill points into something that is done occasionally and has a high chance to end up in PvP. And this will result in even less non-pirate ships out at sea.

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Vancy
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Re: Sail

Post by Vancy » Tue May 25, 2021 8:49 pm

I second the sentiment that this skill should be available to all classes. I am a player who sails a lot, enjoys it and spent a lot of time at sea. However, my class does not have Sail as class skill, so now I'll be more limited in this activity, unless I invest a lot of points for little gain. There are not that many players on the sea anyway, this can make them even more barren.

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FallenDabus
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Re: Sail

Post by FallenDabus » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:39 pm

Too Long to Read, Design Preface Babble
The previous iteration and especially the recent update really demonstrated to me how enjoyable the sailing experience on Arelith could be with some additional work. The sailing skill implementation and how checks are made based on crew size are fantastic. Everything in the current iteration of sailing seems great, and there is nothing I would suggest removing. Even if sailing is not expanded, I am really fond of this change and thankful for all the hard work that went into it.

The previous and current iteration of the sailing system does however place most characters in the role of passengers. It is a very passive experience with limited interaction and agency. The player characters never truly interact with the ship as sailors.

Despite the great foundation and potential set with the sail skill and the smart way it is implemented through crew size, the impact of the sail skill is not truly felt. It also scales poorly as the DCs for evading encounters need to be balanced with the late game in mind, which make most of them near impossible for low to mid-level sailors. The main benefits are also just quality of life, mainly being able to skip combat encounters. The carrots and sticks of the system are not very impactful.

The consequence of these two things is that the motivation to travel with others remains on having the means to repel boarders and to have other players to roleplay with. It is only when it comes to naval PvP when the updated system has a considerable impact. I would argue that naval PvP making up so little of the sailing experience suggests it is not enough.

Too long to read; The rest of the very long post below covers suggestions for an expansion of tools (like the spyglass item), scaling difficulty checks for the sailing skill (to be more inclusive of mid-level sailors), a few sticks to wave at daring sailors (like a ship taking damage to its ability to sail quickly) and a few carrots to dangle (more opportunities to interact with the ship, options for daring journeys that get unlocked for more skilled crews), as well as providing the option to adjust the speed of a ship (lowered sails, half-mast, full sail) that provide advantages and disadvantages in naval combat and in naval encounters.


1. Sail Skill Mastery Rolls
All Sail Skill checks are transparent and will be displayed in the combat log showing your roll and the DC using the Ship Mechanics. Like regular skill checks, 1 is a critical failure and 20 critical success.

! If a crew makes a successful sail check and the crew skill equals or exceeds the DC, they immediately make Mastery Sail check versus the DC +20.

! A critical success on a regular sail check is considered as a successful Mastery Sail check, even if the crew skill does not equal or exceed the DC of the sail check that would allow them to make one.

! Currently effect descriptions of many DCs are not provided in the combat log. If you succeed at a "Sail Check - Gale with perilous weather" it should provide the info "You gain additional travel speed" in the next line of the combat log. This allows players to more quickly understand how the system works, as well as provide feedback on subtle effects hard to notice otherwise.

Design Babble Note
Inspired by Arelith's crafting system, Sail Mastery checks allow for three types of outcomes; failure, success, and mastery success. This has the immediate benefit of being able to better balance sea encounter DCs to be more inclusive of the mid-level characters. A DC of 42 of the current system can be changed to a DC of 22 (sail check) and DC of 42 (sail mastery check).


!!! 2. Sail State
This is perhaps the most important new addition. A ship would have either one to two rigging objects on board, depending on the size of the ship. Ships with a crew size of 2 have one rigging object, and ships with a crew size of 4 or more have two rigging objects.

These are invisible interactable placeables located on the starboard (right) and larboard (left, or port) side of the main deck.

When a character interacts with the rigging object, they can adjust the sails through a dialogue option. They can "lower sails", "half-mast" sails or set them to "full sail". If the ship has two riggings objects, one player character can begin to adjust the sail state, and another can interact with the second to aid.

It takes several turns to reduce full sail to half-mast, and several turns for half-mast to lowered sails, and vice versa. A failed sail check results in the default time, a successful sail check reduces it by a third, and a mastery sail check reduces the time by two-thirds.

If a ship has two sets of rigging, the sail skill of the two characters is added and then divided by 2. If only one of two riggings are used, then the sail skill is that of the character + 0 divided by 2.
  • Lowered Sails
    ⦁ 5% Speed
    ⦁ +10 on artillery attacks
    ⦁ -10 to avoid grapple
    ⦁ -20 on artillery evasions
    ⦁ +10 hide
    ⦁ -10 in storm encounters
    ⦁ -10 in ice shoal encounters
  • Half Mast
    ⦁ 50% Speed
  • Full Sail
    ⦁ 100% Speed
    ⦁ -20 on artillery attacks
    ⦁ +10 to avoid grapple
    ⦁ +10 on artillery evasions
    ⦁ -10 hide
    ⦁ -10 in storm encounters
    ⦁ -10 in ice shoal encounters
The sails can also be adjusted by interacting with the navigator. This results in the default duration to adjust the sail state, with no opportunity to shorten the time required. This is a quality of life touch to retain the overall simplicity of the current system if it is just one person on board. The system is not intended to prevent sailing as is done currently, but to provide agency and advantages to those who really want to get into it.

Design Babble Note
This addition would make a massive difference by itself. Suddenly more characters on the crew would have ways to interact with the ship. It is no longer just passengers + whoever interacts with the navigator. Now you have the person interacting with the navigator, as well as one to two people on the crew who can aid by tending to the sails via the rigging objects.

Emotive descriptions and pop-up messages are of course important to keep everyone on the crew up to speed due to the lack of visual cues. A message popping up above the head of a character "The sails are fully unfurled." as well as one in the combat log is a must.

It also means that storm and ice shoal type events would need to be adjusted. A sail check to see the weather changing, giving the crew an opportunity to adjust the sails, and then being hit by three bad weather encounters during a short storm would be very beneficial to get the feel right. Perhaps a pop up message of a large wave building up and threatening to crash down before a check! But a failed check just affecting sailing speed would not be enough, hence the next section on Seaworthiness and Hull Condition.

For extra credit, I believe it would be a nice touch for the ship's wheel to also be interactable. Allowing it to be used to set a course like it is via the navigator. It may seem like a minor thing that is just extra scripting work, but it will feel differently if it looks like a character is controlling the ship and not a navigator. A PC can use the wheel and call out the new course, and the adjusted course is just navigated in combat log with "The ship leans to starboard as the course is adjusted to south-west.". Navigator = kind of makes you feel like you are giving orders, not sailing yourself.


3. Seaworthiness & Hull Condition
A ship's health would now be measured through both 'Seaworthiness' and 'Hull Condition', instead of just 'health'. Hull condition would replace much of the 'health' original mechanics and function.

! In Detail: Sea Worthiness reflects its state of general repair and disrepair, such as the condition of the ship's masts, rigging, sails and rudder.

As Sea Worthiness decreases, so does a ship's speed, ability to hide and ability to evade attacks by other ships. A ship's Sea Worthiness can be damaged by both random events and during Naval PvP. Random Events such as Storms and Ice Shoals most commonly damage the Sea Worthiness of a ship. (If someone has an idea for an event of how a dragon turtle could ram your ship and has to be scared away with shots fired would be really cool, but not really the point of this post.)

  • Example Encounter: Ice Shoal
    ⦁ On a failed sailing check the ship takes significant damage to Sea Worthiness. The ship collides with an ice shoal. The NPC Navigator calls out "All hands, hold fast! Iceshoal dead ahead!". For a bit of visual flavour, one could add a check for characters to be knocked prone and take some damage from splinters and pieces of ice.
    ⦁ On a successful sailing check, the ship takes minor damage to Sea Worthiness. The ship has a glancing pass with an ice shoal. A critical success is assumed to be an automatic successful Sail Mastery check.
    ⦁ On a successful Sail Mastery check the ship takes no damage to Sea Worthiness. The ship avoids the ice shoal. (Huzzah, and a round of extra ration of rum for the crew.)
A character can slip into the role of the sail master. A character with 15 sail and 30 tailoring can repair a ships Sea Worthiness while it is anchored (stay in quadrant command). If the repairs are being undertaken while anchored at sea instead of a location, the DC is increased by 10. This is a crafting check done by interacting with a special crafting station below the ship's deck. These repairs require medium and large cloth.

A character can slip into the role of the ship's carpenter. A character with 15 sail and 30 carpentry can repair a ships Sea Worthiness while it is anchored (stay in quadrant command). If the repairs are being undertaken while anchored at sea instead of a location, the DC is increased by 10. This is a crafting check done by interacting with a special crafting station below the ship's deck. These repairs require soft- and hardwood.

Charter vessels have Seaworthiness and can also be repaired by carpenter and tailor characters with 15 sail. However, once they return to their homeport their seaworthiness is automatically restored. It is assumed that the ship's NPC owner sees to their repairs. This is important, as you do not want to have folks needing to repair ships that the previous crew ruined. It is bad enough they are often unavailable due to being left adrift.

Purchasable and settlement ships such as the Sea Leopard, Cordor's flagship and Dreadnaught are not automatically repaired when they return to their homeport. They need to be repaired by player characters.


In Detail: Hull Condition reflects the condition of a ships hull. This replaces a ship's health and generally functions as it has previously.

If a ship's hull condition falls below 0 it is destroyed and will sink. A Ship's Hull can be damaged through Naval PvP. Random Events at Sea rarely (if ever) cause damage to a Ship's Hull. When this happens all players on board the ship will fall into the sea much like the "Jump Overboard" feature. A destroyed ship is useless until the next server reset where it will be brought back again.

However, the penalty of losing a ship will also decrease all its Upgrades by 1 Tier and destroy any deployed weapons on deck. If it is a non-charter ship, it will also only be restored with half of its hull condition and seaworthiness restored. The rest of the repairs need to be done by a tailor or carpenter.

A character with 15 sail and 30 carpentry can repair a ship while it is anchored. If the repairs are being undertaken while anchored at sea instead of a location, the DC is increased by 5. This is a crafting check done by interacting with a special crafting station below the ship's deck. It requires soft- and hardwood.

Design Babble Note
The introduction of Sea Worthiness is useful for encounters. If travelling the sea has no consequences beyond the risk of losing a little speed, the system does not have much of a stick to encourage crews to form. Encounters can be very forgiving around the calmer waters too, but more challenging and impactful on seaworthiness when further out. But the stick is not enough, hence the carrot that is the next section.

Overall, it would not be an issue for repairs being done by a Shipwright in a settlement. It just felt like currently, it is a missed opportunity to tie it into the craft system, as that forces ship captains to be more inclusive of other characters. Also encourages captains to bring sailing capable tailors and carpenters on their voyages, which is neat.


4: Carrots! Lots and lots of carrots!
A high level sail rank provides quality of life currently but little in the way of meaningful choices. My suggestion is to add a few options for high Sail skill crews.

a. Skal Journey
In the colder months, the journey to Skal is not immediately closed off but grows more treacherous to navigate until the passage freezes over completely. If a course is charted to Skall during these months, the navigator will respond with "Are you certain we want to risk it? If we get caught between the ice we'll risk the ship."

⦁ If one on board of the crew has 5 hard skill of sail, the navigator provides the option to sail to Skal in months 8 and 4. The DC is 15 to navigate the growing ice shoals in the area. A failed check can damage the seaworthiness of the ship.

⦁ If one on board of the crew has 15 hard skill of sail, the navigator gains the options to sail to Skal in months 9 and 3. The DC is 30 to navigate the growing ice shoals in the area. A failed check can damage the seaworthiness of the ship.

⦁ If a member of the crew has a 30 hard skill of sail, the navigator provides the option to sail to Skal in months 10 and 2. The DC to navigate the growing ice shoals in the area is 45. A failed check can damage the seaworthiness -and- the hull condition of the ship.

⦁ If a member of the crew has a hard skill of sail of 40, the navigator provides the option to sail to Skal in months 11 and 1. The DC to navigate the growing ice shoals is 60. A failed check can damage the seaworthiness -and- the hull condition of the ship.

⦁ During month 12, Skal can not be sailed to. There is simply no passage for a ship to sail through, regardless of the skill of the crew.


b. Rayne's Landing
High sail skill characters can reach Rayne's Landing even if its lighthouse is not lit.

⦁ If a member of the crew has a 20 hard skill of sail, the navigator provides the option to search for the isle even if the lighthouse is not lit. The DC is 35 to navigate safely to its shore. A failed check can damage the seaworthiness of a ship through the reefs.


c. Sibayad
The journey to Sibayad becomes dangerous in month 3 and 5, and is very dangerous during month 4. During these months the sea passages to Sibayad are frequently plagued by powerful storms.

If a course is charted to Sibayad during these months, the navigator will respond with "Are you certain we want to risk it? If we get caught in one of those storms..." etc. Then add strong and very strong storms the ship could possibly run into if heading this way during this time.


d. Sunken City
I would suggest dungeons like the sunken city simply always need a mid-level crew to reach and a high-level crew to have a good chance at avoiding significant seaworthiness damage. One or two places sailing crews will be approached about in order to provide passage is really helpful in terms of a reward.


Design Babble Note
So at this point, we have provided more interaction options for characters to feel more like sailors and less like passengers. We have provided a method to introduce consequences through seaworthiness that allow a ship to be battered during a longer voyage, and the mastery skills and sail state allow characters to have a chance of dealing with them both at mid-level and high-level. Both passively and actively. We have also added some carrots that reward higher investment in the sailing skill.

This should be a great start in terms of encouraging players to form crews. It is more exciting to be part of a crew and spent time on deck, and for a captain there is far greater incentive to be inclusive with their use of their ship and try to put together a great crew. This will all be even more salient when we look at PvP, but before we do let's just look at a few adjustments to the spyglass item.

As a sidenote, balancing is very important. The cost for upgrades should be reduced due to the inclusion of seaworthiness, lest more settlements are encouraged to keep their ships in port.


5: I spy with my little eye!
The spyglass item (not navigator option!) provides the option for the user to select a spotted vessel in the vicinity to assess. The user must make a Sail skill check to reveal further information about a vessel.
  • Spyglass Option: Assess Vessel
    o A failed skill check reveals only basic information. This includes the direction of the quadrant it is in and the weather conditions of the quadrant the examined ship is in.
    o A successful skill check reveals a vessels speed (vs your own), it's heading, the sail state, hull condition, seaworthiness and if it is docked or not.
    o A critical success on a skill check or a successful sail mastery skill check reveals if the sail state of the examined vessel is in the process of being changed, the number of players on deck, and which weapons are deployed on the vessel.
  • ! Spyglass Option: Search for Landmark
    o The Spyglass also allows the user to actively search for specific landmarks and encounters, as well as hidden ships. This provides a list of encounters common to the quadrant, such as sandbanks, naval forts, coves, trade vessels, etc. It does not include encounters such as storms, harpy or saughin attacks, etc.
    o A sailing check is used to determine if the search was successful. If it is, the navigator will gain the navigator spyglass dialogue option to change the heading to anchor there.
    o The Search for Landmark option has a cooldown of around twelve turns. Once the cooldown expires, a message notifies the player the cooldown has expired. The cooldown should be long enough for it not to feel disruptive by encouraging you to constantly spam it.
  • ! Spyglass Option: Examine Course
    The spyglass also allows the user to determine the current weather conditions of a bordering quadrant. The quadrant you examine is selected from a list of the 8 neighbouring quadrants. A "(heading)" tag indicates the neighbouring quadrant the ship is currently heading towards. If there are consequences via storms, players should not be completely helpless victims to them.
Design Babble Note
So in addition of rigging, navigator / ship's wheel, we now have made the spyglass useful. We have also provided an option to actively search for landmarks and trade vessels, again infusing a sense of player agency into the system instead of it all feeling like random happenstance that happens to the ship's crew.

Up until here a ship's crew has the option to be quite involved or to be off hands like is the default of the current system. Everything can be handled via the navigator and remains still pretty simple, but we added a lot of depth and opportunities for active participation. The best way to illustrate how different these small changes will feel (small in term of design, not scripting work!) is when the stakes are high. So lets look at naval PvP.


6: Beat to quarters!
Naval PvP changes drastically and becomes a game of cat and mouse. The spyglass item use to assess another vessel to look at its sail state and if the sail state is being adjusted provides an opportunity to gain an advantage. The best time to fire or grapple another ship is when it is at lowered sail. A crew working hard to quickly adjust its sails to exploit windows of opportunity by having a better chance to hit or being better at evading will have an advantage.

So during naval combat, we have 1-2 people working the sails via rigging, 1 person adjusting the course, 1 person using the spyglass, and 1-3 people on the artillery pieces/grappler. Or a combination of these with a smaller crew. All are actively involved, and someone barking orders like a captain can keep them working together smoothly to be as effective as can be.

If we really want to add depth of options, a possibility to fire artillery normally or to focus fire on a ship's rigging and masts (to decrease its seaworthiness) at a penalty would add another element of strategy.

If one of the ships tries to run, the other ship must decide between following at full speed or decreasing speed in the hope its attacks will take care of it.

It may not be a very complex system but these few new options provide a feeling of choice of strategy. The most flavorful might be using the spyglass to detect fog in a nearby quadrant and sailing into it for cover, or to try to evade by sailing to Sibayad during a storm or risking the Skal passages in late months. Trying to shake off a pursuer by heading into more dangerous passages. For pirates, there is a whole other option. The passages near Skal or Sibayad during the more dangerous months will mean ships emerging from them are likely already a little battered in terms of seaworthiness.


Final Design Babble
Something akin to this system should be rather robust and be relatively easy to pick up. Telegraphing it via combat log and pop up messages is vital. Lots of little touches such as rolls of naval encounters (like ice shoals or light surf with perilous surf) having their effects spelled out in the combat log would help. As would a "-sail" console command that provides information on weather, course, sail-state, etc. to crew. Just ease of use quality in general.

The big benefit is that the current system basically does all the really heavy lifting in terms of design for something like this. As I mentioned at the start, the current system is great in a lot of ways. That it lends itself so well to expansion ideas like mine speaks highly of it.

If at a later time a few incentives for settlements doing tri-monthly cargo writs to Skal and Sibayad would be added, it could all be rounded off nicely. Aka, a couple of more interesting carrots. Perhaps visiting skal for cargo writs decreases the wood demand of a settlement by up to 10%, while visiting Sibayad decreases the stone demand by up to 10%. Suddenly you have one settlement ship doing a cargo writ at a speed decrease, that perhaps hires on others to escort it in case of Arr, piracy!

I just want to mention that I feel like Helitron is very much correct in his assessment that currently there are not too many players interested in sailing and that the upgrade costs have caused a loss aversion attitude towards naval PvP. My sense however is that the lack of fanfare for sailing is due to the "feeling like a passenger" problem more than the aversion loss through naval PvP. I noticed a lot of players avoid throwing in with established crews, as they feel like they just twiddle their thumbs while a single player interacts with the ship. Nor is there a big mechanical advantage or opportunity for a rewarding experience for doing so.

As an avid Underdark fan, I believe a system like this would also be fantastic to make the future Undrenzea content really engaging, as you could use it in really interesting and creative ways down there. Slowing down in certain locations to avoid stirring the attention of cloakers and aboleths, or needing to navigate a faezress storm would be awesome.
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Re: Sail

Post by ActionReplay » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:55 pm

FallenDabus wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:39 pm
...
Wow, thanks for this extremely in-depth feedback and suggestions. Some of the ideas mentioned are already something we have in mind and is on the Todo list, but there is some serious great ideas in here that I will gladly incorporate into the system. My sentiment is very much along the lines of the poster here.

Though I will probably have my own take on a lot of these ideas, I think the overall consensus is to have more players involved during seafaring is the main goal.

Some other concepts I have WIP are random treasure islands to be found during specific events that Ships need to find certain clues for to pinpoint the specific location.

Economy in the form of cargo and goods for settlement is another, so captains can make profit but still be subject to piracy, by selling and buying goods from different locations.

An actual moveable storm across the map that spawns on the grid, a step over the current storm we have from weather but more an actual event like thing that can be devastating.

We also are planning to remove the Navigator entirely and just replace them with a Ship Wheel instead, it would work much like the Navigator though but would present information in a more structural way as a system, rather than flavored text from the Navigator.

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Re: Sail

Post by Mister Badhorse » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:25 pm

Just a random thought:

It might be cool to have a small Sail bonus tied to the various sea deities to represent their favor. Something like +4 for having a sea deity as a patron or a +2 for attunement.

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Re: Sail

Post by ActionReplay » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:47 pm

Mister Badhorse wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:25 pm
Just a random thought:

It might be cool to have a small Sail bonus tied to the various sea deities to represent their favor. Something like +4 for having a sea deity as a patron or a +2 for attunement.
Oh yeah that's neat, I like that.

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Re: Sail

Post by Wethrinea » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:57 am

I wish to echo the sentiment that Sail should be a universal class skill, like Ride and Lore. For one, getting a crew for a ship is difficult now, and second, it excludes a lot of characters from -learning- to sail via RP.

And maybe offerings to Umberlee/Valkur ahead of a journey could give something similar to the above?
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Re: Sail

Post by ActionReplay » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:54 am

Wethrinea wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:57 am
I wish to echo the sentiment that Sail should be a universal class skill, like Ride and Lore. For one, getting a crew for a ship is difficult now, and second, it excludes a lot of characters from -learning- to sail via RP.

And maybe offerings to Umberlee/Valkur ahead of a journey could give something similar to the above?
I agree Sail should be available for all classes, not my call though in this case. Sail is based on the Profession Skill which is open to all classes, so it really should be universal.

Especially with the Ship System being a big chunk of content some people may just miss out on it because they can't minmax or invest in it as they want. I have a hard time seeing someone cross-skill in Sailing atm.

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Re: Sail

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:03 am

Bards not getting sail is beyond bizarre.

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Re: Sail

Post by ActionReplay » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:34 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bards not getting sail is beyond bizarre.
Alright, good news after some discussions we'll open up Sailing for all classes. Hurray!

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Re: Sail

Post by xanrael » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:19 pm

ActionReplay wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:34 pm
ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bards not getting sail is beyond bizarre.
Alright, good news after some discussions we'll open up Sailing for all classes. Hurray!
Nice, will the relevel time be extended for this? I know my current pirate PC didn't have access to Sail except CCing it before.

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Re: Sail

Post by Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:53 pm

I'm not the boss, but Gron did mention in staff chat when putting the Sail change forward that the free relevels will continue longer than originally announced. Hopefully we'll get a new official time frame announced soon, but you should all be good for a little while longer.

Done.


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Re: Sail

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:33 pm

ActionReplay wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:34 pm
ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:03 am
Bards not getting sail is beyond bizarre.
Alright, good news after some discussions we'll open up Sailing for all classes. Hurray!
Great change, I'm glad feedback was taken into account.

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FallenDabus
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Re: Sail

Post by FallenDabus » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:44 pm

ActionReplay wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:55 pm
FallenDabus wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:39 pm
...
Wow, thanks for this extremely in-depth feedback and suggestions. Some of the ideas mentioned are already something we have in mind and is on the Todo list, but there is some serious great ideas in here that I will gladly incorporate into the system. My sentiment is very much along the lines of the poster here.

Though I will probably have my own take on a lot of these ideas, I think the overall consensus is to have more players involved during seafaring is the main goal.

Some other concepts I have WIP are random treasure islands to be found during specific events that Ships need to find certain clues for to pinpoint the specific location.

Economy in the form of cargo and goods for settlement is another, so captains can make profit but still be subject to piracy, by selling and buying goods from different locations.

An actual moveable storm across the map that spawns on the grid, a step over the current storm we have from weather but more an actual event like thing that can be devastating.

We also are planning to remove the Navigator entirely and just replace them with a Ship Wheel instead, it would work much like the Navigator though but would present information in a more structural way as a system, rather than flavored text from the Navigator.
The actual movable storms on the map would be a great, visual touch and the rest all sounds fantastic. I am really excited that sailing is heading in this direction. The treasure hunt islands also sound like tons of fun!

ActionReplay wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:47 pm
Mister Badhorse wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:25 pm
Just a random thought:

It might be cool to have a small Sail bonus tied to the various sea deities to represent their favor. Something like +4 for having a sea deity as a patron or a +2 for attunement.
Oh yeah that's neat, I like that.
This was something I had been thinking about as well. In the end, I removed it from my feedback/suggestion post as it was already way too long.

The way I approached the idea was to have an element of sailing be the chance to awaken the 'Misgivings of Umberlee'. Instead of flat bonuses, I thought it was an opportunity to hammer home a sense of why coastal communities with a goodly outlook honour a tempest deity like her instead of just completely turning to Valkur.

Every X hours at sea there is a 5% chance to awaken her misgivings. These could be rather simple by being a modifier to the DC of Storms and the like and expanded over time with a few unique, flavorful additions. A storm that is a DC of 56 instead of 50 works just fine - followed by a combat log flavour hint that "The waves of the storm seem to lash at the ship with anger and intent." Alternatively, the chance for 2 waves of Saughin boarders attacking the ship instead of one.

Then there are positive and negative modifiers to roll if her misgivings are awakened.
  • You made a sacrifice of 1000 gold before your journey, the chance decreases by 0 to 3%.
  • If you prayed at her shrine in the last 24 hours, the chance decreases by 0 to 2%.
  • If there is a cleric of Umberlee among the crew it decreases by 0 to 5%. If not and if someone selected her as a patron it decreases by 0 to 2%. If not and if someone selected her as an attuned goddess it decreases by 0 to 1%. The lack of certainty if you actually get a modifier is a flavour choice to reflect her capricious nature.
Alternatively, if someone on the crew is a cleric of Valkur or Kossuth it can increases by 0 to 2%, etc. Most gods like Isitah, Tymora, etc. do not give a benefit or penalty.

Finally, there are the Sea God and Fortune God benefits. Tymora, Besheba, Valkur, Isitah, Umberlee, etc. If an important sail check fails and one of the crew holds them as a patron (cleric is better than layman), there is a chance of a bit of divine meddling and you succeed instead at the cost for some piety. If someone is attuned or prayed at one of their shrines, there is a smaller chance for this to happen as well.

The idea being that Umberlee is a royal pain in the Snuggybear for everyone, even her own. However, Valkur, Isitah, Tymora, etc. will look out for their own and tilt the odds in their favour from time to time. Even Umberlee might spare a crew her wrath after demonstrating her power by offering a divine intercession success.

By keeping the two mechanics relatively separate and not conflating every sea god = same bonus, praying to Valkur seems more defiant rather than a more palatable substitute.
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

Deryliss
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Re: Sail

Post by Deryliss » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:41 pm

This is now my favorite thread of all time. Anything that promotes the rich flavorful tapestry of Faerun's very real and very influential deities gets an automatic like in my book.

On sailing in general:
I've been doing a fair bit of sailing since the Sail skill update (I had incredibly little contact with the system beforehand, between lack of ship availability and lack of interest of other landlubbers in getting involved with sea content in general), and I love what I've sen so far. A lot has been said already and I'm not going to just repeat words for the sake of repeating them, just going to add in that in this player's humble opinion this is a system worth investing creative and coding time in.

On deities:
I love the general direction of the proposal above, and it goes a way to capturing the flavor of how the sea deities interact, but you could probably lean even harder on that flavor. The primary struggle is Umberlee as the capricious, fickle, often cruel goddess that you must appease for a better chance at a safer passage versus Valkur as the deity of defiance in the face of such fear-based tactics.

Now imagine this: Every time your ship is about to encounter negative weather of any kind, the Umberlee Roll (patent pending) comes into play. The Umberlee Roll is a simple d20 + Number vs a DC of 10. On a failure, the storm worsens by one step, or gains some dreadful effect.

Number is 0 by default but goes up based on Umberlee appeasement actions, such as:
-Having made an offering on board (I recommend the very flavorful 'tossing gems overboard' which is apparently Umberlee's second favorite sacrifice).
-Having devotees of Umberlee on board.
-A bard on board having played a curse song / dirge (Umberlee enjoys mournful songs played using mouthpipes, and this could be either the Dirge of the Dead or the Booming Drums of the Storm song).

Number could also go down on anything that makes Umberlee sad, possibly, but that's perhaps too much complexity.

A failure worsens the storm by one step (moderate wind becomes strong, strong becomes severe, severe becomes windstorm, windstorm becomes hurricane). A 1 is always a fail, a 20 is always a pass.

But what about clerics of Umberlee? Well, with those, fun things happen. If a cleric of Umberlee is on board, the Umberlee Roll will change functionality. It will weaken the storm on a pass and leave the storm the same on a failure. BUT WAIT. Umberlee is cruel and capricious. She will sometimes want to teach her clerics a lesson. Her protection is never a guarantee, and on a 1 she will increase the storm's severity by TWO steps. So fickle!

So what about the other gods? What of Valkur, Akadi, Deep Sashelas, and all the other gods that offer protection to sailors? Sea storms are Umberlee's domain, and they can't really affect them much. What they can do is gird the sailors against the rigors of the sea, and give them the tools to survive. Bonuses to sail rolls, automatically passing knockdown rolls from heavy winds, ignoring certain penalties, that sort of thing.


This is all wishful thinking of course. Such a system would be a pain to code extensively, but it's nice to dream.
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

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FallenDabus
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Re: Sail

Post by FallenDabus » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:54 pm

^ Absolutely love this.
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

Hinty
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Re: Sail

Post by Hinty » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:45 pm

Yes I would argue for Valkur/Sashelas/Istisha to give a bonus on spotting and avoiding storms perhaps or maybe changing the difficulty of enemy spawns, Umberlee surviving storms occasionally getting hit by particularly tough swarms of saughin out to appease their god by killing worshipers of Umberlee. Selune for navigating at night? Aerdrie/Shaundakul/Akadi slight speed boost?

Perhaps Auril and Ulutui could offer effects similar to Umberlee and Valkur respectively in the areas around Skaljard.


There should also be risk involved with taking on board those that sailors know Umberlee will be displeased by. If you let a cleric of Kosuth or Talos on your ship, you better expect she's going to be trying to sink you. The risks should be very much increased. Followers of Valkur could risk a small increase of severity, Umberlee will want to show her displeasure, but at least they belong on the ocean, and Valkur will be working against her. Less chance of a storm, slightly increased severity if you can't avoid it sort of thing.
Umberlees response to a rival sea god should be her offering a challenge. Her response to a god who has no place on the ocean (Kossuth) or one who is blatently attempting to userp her control of ocean storms (Talos) should be borderline homicidal.

Also, someone on your ship desecrated or destroyed an altar of Umberlee, or a fixture close to one? Hoooo boy.

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Re: Sail

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:20 pm

Hinty wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:45 pm
Yes I would argue for Valkur/Sashelas/Istisha to give a bonus on spotting and avoiding storms perhaps or maybe changing the difficulty of enemy spawns, Umberlee surviving storms occasionally getting hit by particularly tough swarms of saughin out to appease their god by killing worshipers of Umberlee. Selune for navigating at night? Aerdrie/Shaundakul/Akadi slight speed boost?

Perhaps Auril and Ulutui could offer effects similar to Umberlee and Valkur respectively in the areas around Skaljard.


There should also be risk involved with taking on board those that sailors know Umberlee will be displeased by. If you let a cleric of Kosuth or Talos on your ship, you better expect she's going to be trying to sink you. The risks should be very much increased. Followers of Valkur could risk a small increase of severity, Umberlee will want to show her displeasure, but at least they belong on the ocean, and Valkur will be working against her. Less chance of a storm, slightly increased severity if you can't avoid it sort of thing.
Umberlees response to a rival sea god should be her offering a challenge. Her response to a god who has no place on the ocean (Kossuth) or one who is blatently attempting to userp her control of ocean storms (Talos) should be borderline homicidal.

Also, someone on your ship desecrated or destroyed an altar of Umberlee, or a fixture close to one? Hoooo boy.
Eh, I feel Valkur should provide protection.

Selune even more so.

And Sehanine (Journey), Sashelas (oceans), Aerdrie (storms) especially.

Elven navies openly fight with Umberlee (including a major conflict in 1371 with the whole Furies) and elven navies never get sank by Umberlee due to Seldarine protection.

And Valkur literally became a god for giving Umberlee the dirty.

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FallenDabus
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Re: Sail

Post by FallenDabus » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:14 pm

Big thank you to whoever worked on the most recent sail update! Really excited to try it out.
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

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FallenDabus
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Re: Sail

Post by FallenDabus » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:59 pm

1. Sail State Bug

Location:
Wave Skipper & Warship (2 Sencliff Ships)

Description:
The initial state of the sails (lowered) remains unchanged once the rigging object was successfully used to alter it. Both interacting with the rigging object anew and using the "-sail" command states it is still at lowered sails.

What I also noticed is that despite being in the "lowered sail" sail state which should be 5% of the normal speed, the passage through quadrants take about 40-50 in-game minutes as they have before. I suspect despite being at "lowered sail" you actually sail at "full sail".

What Works:
Everything else seems to work very well with it. The time required is correctly adjusted based on sail skill and a character helping it is automatically involved once the process is begun. Once the sail state change is complete, a message in the combat log informs everyone on board.

Steps to Recreate & Recreation Result:
I rented the Warship (the other Sencliff charter ship) and attempted to adjust the sail state there. The same thing occurred there as expected.


Other Feedback: Sail State
As a side note, I sailed with 3 different groups today to test the new changes. Everyone was incredibly excited to be able to interact with the ship with the new spyglass and rigging function. They continued using the rigging for the sails even while it does nothing, enjoying the feeling of being actual participants in the voyage.

The progress bar is an awesome touch, btw. Love the visual feedback. It automatically selecting someone near a rigging object also works beautifully. Not sure if it is intended due to the bug, but it would be great if the sail state always begins as lowered after you engage a location encounter like an atoll or board another ship. That way the sail state does not only have to be changed once at the beginning of a journey or during naval PvP.

As a small balancing thing, I would definitely suggest adding a minimum time to changing the sails. I already know 2 characters who will hit 100 sail if my character boosts them with bard song, and it being possible to change the sail state almost immediately may undermine the purpose of it a little.


2. Sail Mastery Rolls Bug

Location:
Wave Skipper & Warship (2 Sencliff Ships)

Description:
The Sailing Mastery skill checks appear to have an issue. They trigger on sail check successes, but they appear to:
  • Not have a difficulty increase of +20
  • Display failure when they are successful
What Works:
The speed is correctly adjusted. When you use the sextant before and after, you notice it cuts off a nice amount of time until the next quadrant. The Mastery rolls do feel great. Folks on the ship got really excited when they saw them!

Steps to Recreate & Recreation Result:
Occurs on both Sencliff charter ships, and over multiple quadrants during a voyage.

Image


3.Spyglass Bug

Location:
Wave Skipper & Warship (2 Sencliff Ships)

Description:
I am uncertain of what the issue is with the Spyglass. It appears to function very well and as intended, except when selecting "Ruins" the Navigator then provides the option to engage with an "Iceflow". However, when selecting other options I have not yet run into a problem.

Image

Steps to Recreate & Recreation Result:
I could not recreate it in a different quadrant, as I did not encounter another ruin to select in spyglass during the voyage.


Other Feedback: Sail State & -sail command
It would be fantastic if a message in the combat log could be displayed when the cooldown on "assess location" and "assess vessel" are complete.

"-sail" works perfectly. Only thing I feel that would be worth adding would be the current quadrant name.

The addition of mechanical feedback in the combat log for skill checks is great. Thank you so much for this! Makes the system feel much more transparent.

Image

I have yet to interact with the moving storm, but I hope I will have an opportunity for it soon. Again, thank you so much for all the work on this. The difference of the current sail system and the one before the two updates is huge, and in my opinion a massive improvement!
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

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FallenDabus
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Re: Sail

Post by FallenDabus » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:32 am

3. Spyglass Bug (continued)

Location:
Iron Throne Courier 2 / Arelith Local Water Quadrant

Description:
The issue with the Spyglass locating one location and the navigator shouting out another appears not to be only related to "Ruins" but happen with other locations such as Sandbanks as well.

Image


4. Minor Bug(?) Cancel Rest

Location:
Sencliff Bank

Description:
I am not sure if this one is all too telling, after we went sailing I tried cancelling the resting process by clicking on the "X" on the rest bar. I got the combat log message "Manipulating Sails cancelled".

Image

Recreation:
I attempted to recreate it on an old character who did not go sailing during this reset, and when clicking on the "X" on the rest bar I did not get the combat log message.
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

Popkhorne
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Re: Sail

Post by Popkhorne » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:37 am

Adding to what FallenDabus said about Spyglass bugs, on board of the Penny Rose:

Location:
Cordorian Waters.

Description:
Successfuly assessed an Islet with the Spyglass, but the Navigator found a Shipwreck instead.

-

Location:
Slaver's Run south of Cordorian Waters.

Description:
Spyglass was only able to assess locations, and the only three options were Atoll, Atoll, and Atoll.

-

Location:
Slaver's Run near the "to Sibayad" arrow:

Description:
The options were Sunken City and Trader Ship. Nothing happened at all when I clicked on Sunken City twice, but when I decided to assess the Trade Ship instead, the Navigator found the Sunken City.

-

The -ship command appears to not be working on the Penny Rose.

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