Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

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CNS
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Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by CNS » Mon May 31, 2021 12:50 pm

Following a discussion in discord I'd like to check on if something is allowed. My personal stance is its a load of rubbish and shouldn't be allowed.

Person A makes a character called "Dave Davidson" and never tells anyone that name, they live in disguise and instead go by "John Johnson". Never once, since leaving the creation area do they exist without their disguise of John and never do they say "Dave" is their name. They literally just live as "John".

Why would anyone do this?

Well many months later, Person B wishes to Scry "Dave/John" because they are at war over something but is never able to without Metaing their name as "Dave Davidson" because the system mechanically only works off a 'true name' and not a disguised name. Despite Person B's character knowing a great deal about "Dave/John".

To me it feels like being forever disguised is the bad thing here and if you do have a character that assumes another name and will never go back to their old one there should be some way to change the permenant name (as logically that should be enough to scry on?) or some other solution but could I get some DM input?

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Hazard
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by Hazard » Mon May 31, 2021 12:59 pm

If you never find out a character's "true name" you CANNOT scry them.
This was clarified to me by the staff, and I asked multiple times if this was true to be sure, because it means even if you have a hair, or some blood or have MET them or they are standing right there/just left your pressence, you cannot scry them without their full true name.

True names can be taken from shop/house signs and any other means where they show up. This is considered in character information.

It is possible to play a character immune to scry if you never share their true name and never use any of the mechanics involving names.

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In Sorrow We Trust
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Mon May 31, 2021 1:11 pm

Hazard wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:59 pm
If you never find out a character's "true name" you CANNOT scry them.
This was clarified to me by the staff, and I asked multiple times if this was true to be sure, because it means even if you have a hair, or some blood or have MET them or they are standing right there/just left your pressence, you cannot scry them without their full true name.

True names can be taken from shop/house signs and any other means where they show up. This is considered in character information.

It is possible to play a character immune to scry if you never share their true name and never use any of the mechanics involving names.
Actually, I recall GrumpyCat saying that you can scry disguises. Just type -scry <insert disguise name here>. My understanding is it's not only possible mechanically but it's also within rules. Using the command in this way confirms that it does work if you do it this way.

Edit: as long as you know the disguise name ICly, to append.

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Hazard
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by Hazard » Mon May 31, 2021 1:13 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 1:11 pm
Hazard wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:59 pm
If you never find out a character's "true name" you CANNOT scry them.
This was clarified to me by the staff, and I asked multiple times if this was true to be sure, because it means even if you have a hair, or some blood or have MET them or they are standing right there/just left your pressence, you cannot scry them without their full true name.

True names can be taken from shop/house signs and any other means where they show up. This is considered in character information.

It is possible to play a character immune to scry if you never share their true name and never use any of the mechanics involving names.
Actually, I recall GrumpyCat saying that you can scry disguises. Just type -scry <insert disguise name here>. My understanding is it's not only possible mechanically but it's also within rules. Using the command in this way confirms that it does work if you do it this way.
Really? I thought I was told the exact opposite of that in PMs very directly by ... someone. I can't recall. Staff.

I guess we 'do' need confirmation then, because now I need to know.

And being able to scry -disguised people I don't know the true name of would be a game changer for me.
Until it's confirmed I'm going to stick to what I was told and ONLY scry people using true names.
I asked multiple times to be sure, and that's what I was told.
Last edited by Hazard on Mon May 31, 2021 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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In Sorrow We Trust
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Mon May 31, 2021 1:16 pm

That post was ..... last year? Could be outdated, but absolutely 100% can you scry just knowing the psuedonym. It's entirely possible mechanically because I've tried it.

But then it begs the question of "is this realistic".

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Hazard
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by Hazard » Mon May 31, 2021 1:21 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 1:16 pm
That post was ..... last year? Could be outdated, but absolutely 100% can you scry just knowing the psuedonym. It's entirely possible mechanically because I've tried it.

But then it begs the question of "is this realistic".
I don't have the messages still, but that's the opposite of what I was told because that's ... exactly what I wanted to do and I was told to stop and never do that.

So.. good thing this thread exists. I'm keen to learn more.

Being able to scry like that again would be a game changer.

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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Mon May 31, 2021 1:27 pm

Hazard wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 1:21 pm
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 1:16 pm
That post was ..... last year? Could be outdated, but absolutely 100% can you scry just knowing the psuedonym. It's entirely possible mechanically because I've tried it.

But then it begs the question of "is this realistic".
I don't have the messages still, but that's the opposite of what I was told because that's ... exactly what I wanted to do and I was told to stop and never do that.

So.. good thing this thread exists. I'm keen to learn more.

Being able to scry like that again would be a game changer.
If you're not supposed to be able to scry psuedonyms, I wonder why someone painstakingly took the time to script in a clause for doing just that.

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Hinty
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by Hinty » Mon May 31, 2021 2:40 pm

The idea that all you need to scry a person is their name BUT it has to be the name their mother gave them, even if no one ever used that name after that day, and everyone they know besides their long dead mother knows them by a different name, is ridiculous.

I get that its based upon the True Name idea, but a True Name is, traditionally, NOT the name you use every day, nor even the name your mother gave you, it is a special name that you specifically DO NOT use unless you have to because of the dangers if someone gets a hold of it. Weather it is something utterly different and unique, or simply your name pronounced in a very specific way, a name that can be used against you with magic is something everyone would guard very very carefully.

Certainly not something you could learn from speaking to them once, or talking to someone who talked to someone who overheard them talking to someone in the market.



Either A: you are using the name to focus the spell upon an individual you are thinking of, in which case it should only work if you use the name YOU know them by (and only on people you have met and interacted with at least a little bit so you have enough of an impression of the person for the spell to find) and it should only be able to find that person IF they are currently presenting themselves as that person.
I know Joe Blogs the pirate as John Smith the traveling bard. The spell seeks out a flamboyant actor who likes to wear bright silks and everyone knows as John Smith. It will find John Smith, but if he is currently Joe Blogs, stood on his ship being his true brooding, angry captain in dark leathers, the spell isn't going to find him because its not looking for anything like that.

or B: It needs a specific name, that is mystically attached to the person, their magical address, which everyone is going to guard carefully and never use, even for legal documents, and thus you will need special magical means to learn it by using somewhat unsubtle magics in their presence, or perhaps obtaining rare materials and body parts (fingernails and hair are traditional since they are relatively easy to acquire without the individual noticing.) and performing a special ritual.
Joe Blogs introduces himself by many names to many people, and often with different personas to go with the name, BUT if you are able to perform the difficult and exacting task of learning his true name (Or if you are a trusted ally, he GIVES you the name) you can scry him no matter who he is pretending to be.


If a true name is all you need to scry someone, then no one would ever use it for anything. Ever. Unless they trusted the other person with their very life.

Personally I am very much more in favor of the first option. The spell tracks down the identity you have in your mind. It can not track down anyone you have not met (Unless someone is there with you who has met and knows the individual very well and is able to describe them in detail perhaps) and it can not track down someone who currently does not match the description you have fed into the spell.
Thus, if you are scrying someone who is disguised, it will not find them, unless you are scrying that disguise, and vice versa. If you saw through the disguise and identified the person underneath, then perhaps you saw enough of the underlying personality to scry that individual or perhaps not. Thats one for the DMs to rule on.

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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by magistrasa » Mon May 31, 2021 3:36 pm

It would be cool if diviners had like a command or innate ability or something that they had to use on someone in their vicinity, that would then add them to like a "memorized list" or something that made the diviner able to scry on that target regardless of name/disguise/identity. This action would represent the diviner's attunement and familiarity with the individual in question, which is typically supposed to be the key component to scrying. Sure, maybe you can still scry using just a name in other circumstances, but maybe it's got like a 25%-50% chance of failure due to the fact that diviners aren't ordinarily supposed to be able to scry on people just by hearing a name. That's a weird Arelith contrivance that isn't really a thing in forgotten realms. No one should be scrying (or yoinking) someone they don't know. But as well, no one should be prevented from scrying on someone because of a disguise. That's just silly.

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Hinty
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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by Hinty » Mon May 31, 2021 4:14 pm

The command idea isn't bad, although I would like to see it be say a 1/RL hour, thing and require multiple uses to attune to a person.

You could attune to a friend or ally so that you could scry them no matter what, but walking across a crowded plaza and noticing "big bad guy of the month X" wouldn't be enough.


Perhaps limit the number of people you can attune to, with a few extra atunements from spell focuses and specilisations (Knowledge Domain and a Divination focused deity for clerics?)

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Re: Clarification on -disguise and -scry rules

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon May 31, 2021 7:12 pm

So we as a DM team did discuss this again.

In truth both arguments have good points. It IS odd that someone can scry you via your disguised name and it didn't used to be the case- that it's now possible is a change in the system.

On the other hand - it feels to us that scrying has a whole bunch of counters, that adding yet another counter to it would honestly be a bit much.

So the current ruling is that yes, you can scry someone via their disguised name. I'll put an announcment up on that - just for people to refresh their memory and I'll try and get the wiki entry changed soon to reflect this policy.
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