Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

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UilliamNebel
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Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by UilliamNebel » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:59 pm

For events where there is no good primary source from RP past, can a DM be asked to make a reasonable ruling on what could be known as a fact IC?

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by -XXX- » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:11 pm

Why'd you want to do that?

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:27 pm

Is it a DM event? Depends how 'big' the question is to me?
This too shall pass.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:07 pm

I kinda feel like you've answered your own question.

In circumstances where there is no good primary source, then the issue in question should be somewhere between insanely difficult to impossible to define what is "known as fact IC".

Historians deal with this exact problem all the time. Historical data is often conflicting, confused, incomplete, or sometimes simply absent. In such cases, the historian takes what can be found, and makes their best guess. A good historian informs the reader that what they are writing is a best guess based on the available data. A shitty historian presents their theories as fact. Arelith has many shitty historians.

And that's great.


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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:10 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:07 pm
I kinda feel like you've answered your own question.

In circumstances where there is no good primary source, then the issue in question should be somewhere between insanely difficult to impossible to define what is "known as fact IC".

Historians deal with this exact problem all the time. Historical data is often conflicting, confused, incomplete, or sometimes simply absent. In such cases, the historian takes what can be found, and makes their best guess. A good historian informs the reader that what they are writing is a best guess based on the available data. A shitty historian presents their theories as fact. Arelith has many shitty historians.

And that's great.
I'm... mostly on board with this. There are perhaps a few cases, with very braud, obvious facts where I feel we could provide static answers, but even these might depend a bit on who was asked and if these situations have effects on rp of the situation in general. But as I said- these are outlayers and on the whole the above is true.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by UilliamNebel » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:41 pm

Thanks all, answered my question.

Asked before if I went forward on presenting Dethos own, limited, and incomplete take on the Weatherstone IC, which is a bit contrarian to the IC consensus, and several other takes, I've heard IC, and seen presented as fact OOC at times as if they were settled matters by DMs (Just never found IC, or dev side sources for, several things).

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by ltlukoziuz » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:23 pm

Do it. We need more contrarians. They're great.


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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Hazard » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 am

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:23 pm
Do it. We need more contrarians. They're great.
I disagree.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Wethrinea » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:30 am

The question I'd like to pose when it comes to the factuality of events is: Does it matter?

Arelith, to my knowledge, has no official history, and the past is whatever characters remember it to be. As a new player, this frustrated me to no end, and I still don't know what really happened to Benwick, or that war between Guldorand and the Sky-Talkers, and a host of other events. But I came to realize that this does not really matter, for the simple reason that the characters we play do not, and should not, posses perfect information about the world they live in.

This means that the characters I play likely hold many beliefs about the past that are wrong, to varying degrees. And that is fine. Even desirable.
Ivar Ferdamann - Mercenary turned Marshall

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:09 am

Wethrinea wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:30 am
The question I'd like to pose when it comes to the factuality of events is: Does it matter?

Arelith, to my knowledge, has no official history, and the past is whatever characters remember it to be. As a new player, this frustrated me to no end, and I still don't know what really happened to Benwick, or that war between Guldorand and the Sky-Talkers, and a host of other events. But I came to realize that this does not really matter, for the simple reason that the characters we play do not, and should not, posses perfect information about the world they live in.

This means that the characters I play likely hold many beliefs about the past that are wrong, to varying degrees. And that is fine. Even desirable.
Theonly time I consider that it might matter is if you're setting up a character whos background is linked intrinsically with these events. So if you're wanting to play say, an orphan of Wharftown. Or the child of one of the sky totem druids. Or a baby of the Benwick refugees. Even then the accuracy of the knowledge would depend on how far removed you were from the event.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:57 pm

Wethrinea wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:30 am
The question I'd like to pose when it comes to the factuality of events is: Does it matter?
Yes, it does, in the sense of character/player agency if that is of value to a player.

Some players, even some characters, were about for these events. The players made choices that they believed would have lasting effect, even if just some manner of historical record in game. On an immersion side, this matters to many people. It is fine for people to recall details wrong in character, but to wholesale retcon or write out contributions made to the game world is another issue entirely. So, in that sense, I'd look to get it reasonably right.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:37 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:07 pm
I kinda feel like you've answered your own question.

In circumstances where there is no good primary source, then the issue in question should be somewhere between insanely difficult to impossible to define what is "known as fact IC".

Historians deal with this exact problem all the time. Historical data is often conflicting, confused, incomplete, or sometimes simply absent. In such cases, the historian takes what can be found, and makes their best guess. A good historian informs the reader that what they are writing is a best guess based on the available data. A shitty historian presents their theories as fact. Arelith has many shitty historians.

And that's great.
:lol:

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pm

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:57 pm
Wethrinea wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:30 am
The question I'd like to pose when it comes to the factuality of events is: Does it matter?
Yes, it does, in the sense of character/player agency if that is of value to a player.

Some players, even some characters, were about for these events. The players made choices that they believed would have lasting effect, even if just some manner of historical record in game. On an immersion side, this matters to many people. It is fine for people to recall details wrong in character, but to wholesale retcon or write out contributions made to the game world is another issue entirely. So, in that sense, I'd look to get it reasonably right.
This does touch on an interesting question. A great example is the fall of Wharftown.

From my memory of a DM (and please note that the memory isn't perfect) the following narrative- in the briefest of forms took place:
That after many, many, many attacks on Cordor and its people, King Edward sent a message something like, 'Remove yourself as mayor of wharftown and hand it over to Cordor to be vassaled, or we'll ally with Amn to destroy it.'
The leadership of Wharftown not only ignored this, but positivly seemed to relish the idea. Much work was taken on by Cordorians and other forces to evacuate Wharftown. In the end only a few npcs - less than a dozen or so, chose to stay - including the priestess of the Selunite temple.
Wharftown was bombarded, and those people within it killed. An attack was made on the Amnian ships at the same time by Rheag, killing far more people on that side. I think there was also a battle outside of wharftown, but I'm not sure about the full details of that.
In the weeks/months after the event, Cordor took in the refugees in a camp outside and pretty much bent over backwards to aid them. Hundreds of thousands of gold and man hours were put into their comfort and safty. I think narrativly we had it that many moved to Cordor after. There were of course abuses/attacks on the refugee camp, but there really was a lot of attempt to look after them.
The refugees who entered Cordor - some of them at least (though by no means all) did join the poorer class, and during the voting to decide which queen would gain the right to court King Edward, one of the contestents - the Cormyran one - afreed at the end to take many of the remaining, unsatisfied refugees back to Cormyr.

To hear how some players tell the story *ahem*
'Vile Amn talked the blood thirsty Edward Cordor into destroying Wharftown! Killing thousands in the assault upon the absolutly perfectly innocent fishing village! Men! Women! Children! All slaughtered by the uncaring Amnian navy! The bodies of the innocent people stacked high in bloody piles around the town! Afterwards the refugees from the attack were left to fend for themselves, starving and dying in droves! Until they wrere FORCED into crodor as SLAVE LABOUR! Working in the WORST of conditions beneth the LASH of the noble man!
Eventually one of the contenders for Edwards hand, a noble lady from Cormyr FORCED the pitiable remains of what was left of the refugees onto her boat, sailed them towards Cormyr and MURDERED THEM ALL!!!!

Or, that's how I've heard it at times.

Now on the one hand - it is reasonable that pcs should be able to controle the narrative to some degree. I mean - hell look at real life. There's morons out there denying the holocaust! So that is realistic.
On the other I think it must really suck to work so hard and do so much to, in this example, 'help' the refugees, to prevent the slaughter, to try and make the whole, awful affair as clean as possible - because Wharftown really were the bad guys in this - only to have history turn around and screm YOU WERE THE VILLAINS!

On the whole, as irritating as the latter is, I do prefer some amount of ambivilence I think. Though again, I can see a neccesarity for some clarity from Dms if you're making a pc who's background really ties into such events.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:38 pm

I didn't even know about the later efforts to aid the refugees or the consorts role with them . . . Seems much is lost to history.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:39 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pm

A great example is the fall of Wharftown.
One for me I was directly involved in as a player was some of the Sky Talker issues.

The meme that Sky Talkers were orthodox druids, who were just isolationist, and genocide ensued by the civilized for 'reasons', is laughable to anyone who played in old. old, like Shelob's cave was still there Guldorand.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Ork » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:38 pm
I didn't even know about the later efforts to aid the refugees or the consorts role with them . . . Seems much is lost to history.
Which is 100% okay. That's how we move on from old arcs or stories or characters. No one is talking about old things because a lot of people are interested in new stories and new ideas. Getting stuck on old history leads to stagnation.


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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:08 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 pm
Getting stuck on old history leads to stagnation.
Sure. But forever casting to the aside leads to MCU levels of 'who blows up the Death Star this week' and utter lack of continuity over time, a feature, not bug, of a PW.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Hazard » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:26 pm

Hazard wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 am
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:23 pm
Do it. We need more contrarians. They're great.
I disagree.
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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:29 pm

HA HA

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:09 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:38 pm
I didn't even know about the later efforts to aid the refugees or the consorts role with them . . . Seems much is lost to history.
Can confirm the majority of Grumpy's recounting. A few additions/alterations regarding the lead-up.

1: During the leadup to the bombardment, the Arelithian sea elven princess was captured by the sahuagin. This had the effect of giving the sahaugin free run of the seas, and they were using it to attack and sink all approaching ships, which was preventing the Amnian navy from getting into position; accepting the mission from the Cowled Wizards of Amn to rescue the sea elven princess, we (the Golden Eagles, PC guard force of Cordor at the time) went into the sea with water breathing spells, and rescued the princess.

2: Moment of personal character relevance - The Eagles were offered a boon in exchange for rescuing the princess. Up to this point, Ceviran (my character, and the current commander) had been trying to figure out a method to avoid/avert the attack. In the moment, I had about a thirty second window where I realized Ceviran could ask the sea elves to continue keeping the Amnian ships at bay.

The potential consequences were execution for betrayal, for him, his men, or possibly drowning at the bottom of the sea, since they were being watched by the Cowled Wizards who were providing the water breathing, and also increased fatalities on the Cordorian side, as at this point they had basically committed to Wharftown's eradication. Ceviran asked the sea elven princess for nothing other than to resume defending her people from the sahuagin, which freed the sea lanes back up.

As an aside, to this day, due to this interaction, both my character and I feel a personal sense of responsibility for Wharftown's fate - what would have happened if we had asked the elves to sabotage the fleet? OOC, I don't know if this would've given the Team an out or not, but some small part of me feels it would have at least prevented the naval bombardment that was ultimately given credit for Wharftown's destruction, and since IG didn't want WT destroyed, this is one of the few instances where I regret not bending my character's principles for the sake of the story of the server at large, even if it would've royally screwed the entire party in terms of treason.

To all of you who lost your memories, history, efforts, and potential future stories in this settlement, even if it would have changed nothing - as a player, I'm sorry. As a character, Ceviran will carry that regret until his death. Without Wharftown, his parents would never have fallen in love.

3: Sometime during the day of or immediately preceding the attack (clarity will have to come from another player, if you can track Miranda down that will help- I was obviously busy running around doing things other than checking on the mayor status), Armenius' tenure as mayor ended, and Miranda (Magna, I believe?) became the mayor, along with a few supporters (so the town wasn't completely abandoned)- she met us (the Eagles) at the gate for the attack. She informed the golden eagles that she had taken over mayorship. Our characters had a short dialogue, where my duty-bound guard commander informed her that it was too late- my character, conflicted, attempted to persuade them to stand down/surrender/leave, and did a very poor job, inciting an emotional response from Miranda and rendering victory or death the only possible outcome (sorry, Miranda).

Ceviran stood at King Edward's side, backed by the Eagles, as Edward gave the command to commence the bombardment. Cev very nearly lost his composure, and would not have issued the order for his men to move forward and attack during the bombardment without his lieutenant (Ingeborg) reminding him that the rest of the force was waiting for his command. For the briefest of moments, here I as a player had another thought - could Ceviran risk everything in an attempt to sabotage the attack? Ironically, had he not loved his Eagles and he could have been the only one to suffer the fallout, he might've gone the martyr route, here. But he was also in love with his lieutenant, and he couldn't bring himself to condemn her to that fate (he wouldn't have been able to stop her from supporting him, mechanically or otherwise). He was still conflicted, and when he made his way into the city, he was slain. During this attack, an assassin (drow?) poisoned King Edward, which led to his cloistering himself away from the public eye for the foreseeable future.

Ceviran hates the piece of art that shows the day of the Cordorian Army laying siege to Wharftown - it is a lasting reminder of his lack of courage during multiple opportunities to do what he felt was right, and it glorifies what he sees as his personal failing.

4: Leading up to this, a number of players were involved, I'm sure, but the only part I can remember seeing is Amadeo booking it as fast as he could in and out of Wharftown with refugees, and I seem to recall him making creative use of teleportation bolts to do so. He and the others involved in the evacuation of Wharftown (again, I was obviously busy elsewhere for this chapter) would be ideal for clarification here.

5: Wharftown Dalenda Est. :cry:
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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Ork » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:54 pm

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:08 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 pm
Getting stuck on old history leads to stagnation.
Sure. But forever casting to the aside leads to MCU levels of 'who blows up the Death Star this week' and utter lack of continuity over time, a feature, not bug, of a PW.
I think this is really only experienced for players that continuously play the same character over a year+

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:01 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:54 pm
UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:08 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 pm
Getting stuck on old history leads to stagnation.
Sure. But forever casting to the aside leads to MCU levels of 'who blows up the Death Star this week' and utter lack of continuity over time, a feature, not bug, of a PW.
I think this is really only experienced for players that continuously play the same character over a year+
Whether you play your characters for two months or two years, it shouldn't change the answer to a question like "Who controlled the fleet that bombarded Wharftown to smithereens?" This is not a problem of people playing their characters for too long, it's a problem of people wanting to isolate/forget knowledge so they can ignore or alter it later.

As an aside, plenty of characters with a shelf life of longer than a year have less playtime than characters who get rolled in a few months. Looking down on those players for having less playtime and still wanting to complete a story isn't Nice. Edit: Not to say that's your intention, but it's a sentiment that gets brought up and referenced often.
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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:23 pm

Keeping it fresh and creative is player-driven not character driven. Whether you're on a new character or old there are a lot of endlessly repeating stories here if you've been a player for a while. I think rapid turnover is kind of overrated honestly as often it's a succession of similar concepts. If you're more comfortable starting fresh every few weeks or months that's great but a lot of the time that new character still seems to know what the player knows so how fresh are they really?

There is value in sometimes playing a character for years, I don't think that should be done every time but a wise elder who care share experiences can add a lot to the world.
Last edited by Eyeliner on Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can a DM be called on to rule on past event's factuality?

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:39 pm

I would take IC driven false narratives over players quoting passages from their years old notepad files anytime.

Even many PC written historical records IG seem to have been warped by the lens of perception or IC agenda. Why not just take it for what it is and invent ways to work with what we have rather than engage in OOC arguments over what is or isn't "canon"?

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