God-Save Exploit, or No?

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:11 pm

I'm surprised we don't have basins by every major server transition. The way some of you talk about it ("everyone is doing it!"), you'd think enchanters made it easy for themselves by placing basins right by the transitions.

Because if it IS allowed and encouraged, we might as well make it easier to access.

I personally agree that it is gamey and silly, but as I stated earlier, it's a mechanic. So unless it is specifically called out by DMs as an exploit, it doesn't breach the rules.

It's the same thing with Stealth. Arelith doesn't have any rules regarding stealthing in the middle of the square in broad daylight, because it's a mechanic, it's a feature. I've seen other servers both in this game and in NWN2 try to rule against stealth usage like the example mentioned, and it's... so messy and so impossible for DMs to police.

One of the reasons I truly believe Arelith is so popular is because of WYSIWYG. What you see is what you get. Basins and stealth included.


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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:32 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:11 pm
I'm surprised we don't have basins by every major server transition. The way some of you talk about it ("everyone is doing it!"), you'd think enchanters made it easy for themselves by placing basins right by the transitions.
There usually is an actual layer of RP to the travel, even if a superficial one- especially when you're enchanting for someone else. In my usage of this I usually took a somewhat scenic route, but even just portal or boat hopping tends to offer several transitions worth of opportunity for dialogue and 'side-quests' to come up on your trip to the basin.

But with that said, at least nowadays, it's basically as simple as going from a Cordorian basin/station to any other Surface settlement, since they're all on a different server. It's not terribly inconvenient, it's just not very well-documented- most likely because no one wanted to point out the awkward looking elephant in the room for fear of it getting ruled against.

It's likely riskier to try to pull this off as an underdarker, although I imagine you could get away with using Sibayad/Sencliff as an alternate location if you were discreet and careful about it.

Mind you, there's also just carrying your own basin/station in your inventory and crossing literally any server transition to plop it down - but I would suggest that's probably a little too heavy on the cheddar.

It would be kind of cool to have known enchantment hubs at server transitions though, which occasionally happen around leylines of power...
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Distant Relation » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:16 pm

Even for an underdark character its fairly trivial to hit 3 of the servers (UD of course, Surface and Cordor and Planes). You can hit all those within three transitions of Andunor, all with basins, all fairly safe areas.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by MRFTW » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:51 pm

Even Skaljarders can get two servers, with the dock just south of the village being (presumably) surface.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by ElvenEdibles » Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:47 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:01 pm
My take is: Who cares?

I wouldn't waste effort on fixing it, unless it was quick and easy.

It provides no immediate advantage, and really only becomes gamechanging, in terms of time savings
It still costs the same amount of time, if not a little more, it's just not spread over a day or two as if you were doing it all on one server. Or put another way, it costs a little more time but the 'product' is potentially finished in fewer days.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by xanrael » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:02 am

Curve wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:24 pm
I hear what y'all are saying, and I don't think it really hurts anything so long as everyone is playing by the same rules. If it turns out that this is not against the rules, then maybe it can be added to the wiki as an aspect of enchanting because it is a tremendous boon to enchanting and it should be available to everyone...
This is my take on it, especially as it's one of those gray areas where people arbitrarily draw a line to define within/outside server ethics.

Personally I'd rather see the loophole closed and instead have the enchanting godsave gold threshold scale by level or enchanting tier. If you're level 3 and decide to enchant you probably want almost anything to save as you're next to broke, if you're level 30, not so much.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Ork » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:50 am

With an enchantment change on the horizon, I don't know if this even matters.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:28 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:50 am
With an enchantment change on the horizon, I don't know if this even matters.
Do we know what kind of change? This could be really exciting!


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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:27 am

Let me reveal to ya'all in case it hasnt been absolutely clear yet.

EVERYBODY DOES THIS (I guess except some people who didnt know about it because everything to do with god-saves is kinda foig and mysterious intentionally)

And to be clear. It's just way too obnoxious to not to this, with how the system currently works, exploit or not. That's the hard truth.
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Ping14 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:27 am
EVERYBODY DOES THIS (I guess except some people who didnt know about it because everything to do with god-saves is kinda foig and mysterious intentionally)
From Arelith Wiki:
Characters may sometimes have their deity intervene to make a failed Dweomercraft succeed. This is an intentionally obscured game mechanic and the intervention is not guaranteed:

As long as your piety is high enough (the required % is kept unknown to players on purpose), the godsave presumably has a 45% chance of happening (Peppermint has supposedly said this once)
Your % piety is irrelevant for a godsave occurring as long as you have enough.
The cooldown of a godsave presumably is 1 in game day, meaning 144 real life minutes. This is according to Xerah, who said "let's just accept that 1 per day is the right number" in this thread: http://forum.arelith.com/viewtopic.php? ... 85#p198185. However, others have said the cooldown is 12 real life hours, and there have been reports of godsaves happening 30 minutes after another on the same server and the same account, without a reset. Like with many aspects of this mechanic, the team is unwilling to be transparent on this.
The godsave, if not on cooldown, is supposed to occur only if the initial chance of success is lower than 90%. However, there have been several reports of it triggering on a 95% enchantment as well.
Godsave cooldown timers work separately on each of the three servers. For example, if you have triggered the godsave on the Cities & Planes server, you will still be able to receive your godsave on the other servers, provided it was not already on cooldown there.
Enchantment/Dweomercrafting is not as FOIG as it once was.

All they need to do is read the Wiki, which I would assume is our counterpart of an RL game manual.
If they didn't know about it, then they probably haven't read the wiki.
Last edited by Ping14 on Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:36 am

Ping14 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:27 am
EVERYBODY DOES THIS (I guess except some people who didnt know about it because everything to do with god-saves is kinda foig and mysterious intentionally)
From Arelith Wiki:
Characters may sometimes have their deity intervene to make a failed Dweomercraft succeed. This is an intentionally obscured game mechanic and the intervention is not guaranteed:

As long as your piety is high enough (the required % is kept unknown to players on purpose), the godsave presumably has a 45% chance of happening (Peppermint has supposedly said this once)
Your % piety is irrelevant for a godsave occurring as long as you have enough.
The cooldown of a godsave presumably is 1 in game day, meaning 144 real life minutes. This is according to Xerah, who said "let's just accept that 1 per day is the right number" in this thread: http://forum.arelith.com/viewtopic.php? ... 85#p198185. However, others have said the cooldown is 12 real life hours, and there have been reports of godsaves happening 30 minutes after another on the same server and the same account, without a reset. Like with many aspects of this mechanic, the team is unwilling to be transparent on this.
The godsave, if not on cooldown, is supposed to occur only if the initial chance of success is lower than 90%. However, there have been several reports of it triggering on a 95% enchantment as well.
Godsave cooldown timers work separately on each of the three servers. For example, if you have triggered the godsave on the Cities & Planes server, you will still be able to receive your godsave on the other servers, provided it was not already on cooldown there.
Enchantment/Dweomercrafting is not as FOIG as it once was.

All they need to do is read the Wiki, which I would assume is our counterpart of an RL game manual.
Awesome.
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by dominantdrowess » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:48 am

Because the strategy, as it's been explained is ... typically, when people are enchanting in this way, they prepare a bunch of items up past the god-save, then try to do 15 - 20 of them at once on hard 5%. So they industrialize the god-saves.

Carry a Basin. Carry an Altar. Teleport to a remote portal at each location. Enchant, enchant, enchant. If DMs are fine with this, I'm fine with this. The main thing is just getting what is and IS NOT an exploit properly aired.

People wanna stay IC, and teaching new people how to do things IC is more desirable than a bunch of tells.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:21 pm

Wasn't going to chime in but just wanted to point out that hard 5% rolls don't get deity save.

Also I understand it's "not" cheating but honestly I've never had to do this and it does kind of scream EXPLOIT!!! as it requires making use of a glitch in a system due to Arelith being spread over multiple servers.
If Arelith was a single server this wouldn't happen so is clearly not the intended idea of the deity save system.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Skibbles » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:04 pm

Saying that 'everyone' does this is definitely incorrect.

I don't really care that anyone does it but it does just seem a little weird to me which is why I brought it up.
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Lexx » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:53 pm

I've never used this and enchant a lot on varying characters over the years. Not something I've seen the need to as it honestly just felt gamey as said and kind of doesn't make sense from a lore perspective with gods. And that's coming from someone who hard 5%s a lot of gear for people. For what that's worth.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:41 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:48 am
Because the strategy, as it's been explained is ... typically, when people are enchanting in this way, they prepare a bunch of items up past the god-save, then try to do 15 - 20 of them at once on hard 5%. So they industrialize the god-saves.

Carry a Basin. Carry an Altar. Teleport to a remote portal at each location. Enchant, enchant, enchant. If DMs are fine with this, I'm fine with this. The main thing is just getting what is and IS NOT an exploit properly aired.

People wanna stay IC, and teaching new people how to do things IC is more desirable than a bunch of tells.
It's a perfect example for "dont hate the player hate the game" (Or.. dont hate anyone really but you get the point). Enchanting items is atrociously annoying, takes long time as is, is basically no less than gambling in a PG-13 setting, and the game limitation that allows to manipulate god-save between servers is practically no less than a god-send.

So here we are.
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:21 am

I wouldn't be particularly upset if this were fixed, although I agree that enchanting would become tedious. No one uses the alternate server godsave to try to hard 5% (as others have mentioned, that doesn't work). In the 'industrialized' version, what you do is generate a bunch of +2 skill, +2 skill, +1 uni, +1 stat items, all the same bonuses and item type, say for example, a cloak. You then try to godsave another +1 stat onto one until you have about 15 or 20 of these. Then you take THOSE to the basin and try to hard 5% them, without the benefit of godsaves.

This means even if you're taking the round trip for all three servers, and you have enough/limitless gold to throw at the project without having to go adventuring in between, you're taking at least 5 full IG days worth of god saves and crafting efforts to get the minimum necessary for a passable statistical chance at getting one hard five percent item, and 7 if you want to have slightly better than passable odds (it's surprisingly easy to fail 50 5% checks in a row when it come to the basin- experience talking). Edit: This of course, assumes, that you don't burn any of your godsaves on the way to last possible godsave, as well.

"Fixing" this would turn it into 15-21 IG days worth of crafting projects. On the other hand, you could just streamline the process, close the server transition loophole, and set the enchanting godsaves to three times/ IG day.

Yes, I realize my numbers above may be a bit off on the 5% stat collections, it's been awhile. It was more about the method in which it was applied.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:42 am

Lexx wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:53 pm
I've never used this and enchant a lot on varying characters over the years. Not something I've seen the need to as it honestly just felt gamey as said and kind of doesn't make sense from a lore perspective with gods. And that's coming from someone who hard 5%s a lot of gear for people. For what that's worth.
God saves are gamey to begin with. Nothing in lore would indicate deities give followers exactly one reliable boost in crafting a day. Planning for that one guaranteed god-save is just as much a gamey OOC move as going to another city for a second one. The basins are totally gamey too, they fill a need for gear creation in a NWN persistent world but barely make sense IG.

I get complaints that this is a minor exploit (though a rule against doing it would be almost completely unenforceable so it either needs to be fixed or let be) but it's really no more gamey than anything else about item enchantment.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:39 pm

OK, let's say that I want to make a powerful piece of 5% gear that can later be runed.
The process (assuming tier 3 dweomercrafter enchanting anything but rings or weapons) would look like this:
  • +2 skill... 37gp, 95%
  • +1 UNI... 1173gp, 88%
  • +1 Stat... 3065gp, 51%
--------------------------------------------------------------------
  • +1 Stat... 4937gp, 5%
  • Apply masterwork rune for +1 Stat (or whatever)

Now, note the line - that's the farthest a godsave will get you, because godsaves do not work for 5% attempts.

So hopping servers to get another instance of godsave would maybe help saving 4275gp in this example.
Sure, one can save a lot of gold coins if they contunually keep doing this, but that takes time and patience.
TBH I'd rather spend the time grinding to make up for the loss than waiting and cluttering my character's inventory with unfinished enchanting projects - especially once we consider the fickleness of RNG - one can succeed a 5% enchantment on the first attempt and one can waste a hilarious amount of gold coins with no success to show for it regardless of how much server hopping they do.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Ping14 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:59 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:39 pm
I really can't imagine why would anyone go through the ordeal of spending sums potentially creaping up to hundreds of thousands gold coins in order to 5% an item that can't be runed (runes can be applied to items with max 4 properties).
They can make it like so:
  • x2 +2 Skills
    +1 reflex, fort, will
    +1 STAT (soft 6%)
    +1 STAT (Hard)
  • With the above config, specific saves does not count for rune count, hence a masterwork rune will work for a +1 more STAT
They can also do it like so:
Ring of Fortitude +3
  • +1 STAT (5% soft)
    +1 STAT (5% hard)
  • Lesser rune it for triple stats
Ring of Insight:
  • x1 +2 Skill
    +1 specific save
    +1 STAT (5% soft)
    +1 STAT (5% hard)
  • Masterwork rune it for triple stats
Its alot of hassle to do though. But if they have the time for it, its on them. I personally do not find it worthwhile.
I'd rather avoid any use of masterwork rune if I can. And just usually save the masterwork runes for interesting finds that can be double 5%.

As for multi server god saves, its publicly known (has a wiki article about it even). It doesn't make sense in terms of lore that a deity would aid you again if you changed servers, but it does encourage another thing, travelling. Is it cheezy to do so? Well- if I am going to save days to hours of waiting just to get my standard gear of:
  • x2 +2 Skills
    +1 fort/reflex/will
    +1 STAT (5% soft)
    +1 STAT (Greater rune)
I think its more of a convenience than anything. So that I can do more things other than dweomercrafting. 4x saves a day helps alot for full gear orders too. You can complete an order in 2 IG days (approx 1 day RL, or if you don't play that much, 2 days). There's a bit of cheese but not diarrhea inducing cheese like Adamantine/Rune camping bosses outside their areas. It saves time, some coin. But not game breaking amounts of coins, and doesn't harm other players fun of the game.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:05 pm

Yeah, though TBH most of those examples is gear good enough for mid lvl/low epic lvl characters - a spot in the character's level progression that most people just skyrocket through with 2x +1 stat gear.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Lexx » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:08 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:42 am
Lexx wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:53 pm
I've never used this and enchant a lot on varying characters over the years. Not something I've seen the need to as it honestly just felt gamey as said and kind of doesn't make sense from a lore perspective with gods. And that's coming from someone who hard 5%s a lot of gear for people. For what that's worth.
but it's really no more gamey than anything else about item enchantment.
Fair does. I guess I'll agree to disagree with that sentiment.

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:12 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:39 pm
OK, let's say that I want to make a powerful piece of 5% gear that can later be runed.
The process (assuming tier 3 dweomercrafter enchanting anything but rings or weapons) would look like this:
  • +2 skill... 37gp, 95%
  • +1 UNI... 1173gp, 88%
  • +1 Stat... 3065gp, 51%
--------------------------------------------------------------------
  • +1 Stat... 4937gp, 5%
  • Apply masterwork rune for +1 Stat (or whatever)

Now, note the line - that's the farthest a godsave will get you, because godsaves do not work for 5% attempts.

So hopping servers to get another instance of godsave would maybe help saving 4275gp in this example.
It's not about the 4275 gp on the one item you've enchanted. It's about the fact that you want that hard 5% roll at the end. I'm also 99.9% sure you can sneak at least one more +2 skills onto the non-ring non-weapon item you've got above before the godsave line at tier 3 (I think you can get 3 4 +2 skills, a +1 unisave, and a +1 stat), unless the system got a nerf while I was gone- this invalidates your ability to masterwork rune a third stat onto the unisaves, but eliminates the need for it at all (the last time I tried to buy a masterwork rune they cost over 200K gold), which would push your savings up into the 200K+ range.

Even if my memory of the item it took me over a month RL time to successfully take has somehow become trash (it's possible, we're talking 5+ years ago when runes weren't even a thing yet), you're still examining it in the light of a single item. Getting up to that line in your post is going to generate failures, which cost more gold.

If you want 20 of them for quick, ready 5% pitches, god saves to prevent the failure on the last step can also save you up to 80K gold, or more if you're having a particularly unlucky run with the basin.

To some people, a few hundred thousand gold doesn't matter. To other people, these savings can get them to a hard 5% item (or multiples) without having to go play Wolf of Wallstreet first, which is even more time saved on top of the potential time spent getting to the line in your post, and let's not forget the time spent navigating the dweomercrafting conversations to get to that line in the first place can be particularly painful during a busy, laggy day. I'll take extra travel time and some RP dialogue over an extra conversation with the basin any day.

Pitching XP into the basin instead of 200K+ gold for a masterwork rune is a no-brainer for some chronically impoverished adventuring characters.
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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by dominantdrowess » Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:07 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:12 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:39 pm
OK, let's say that I want to make a powerful piece of 5% gear that can later be runed.
The process (assuming tier 3 dweomercrafter enchanting anything but rings or weapons) would look like this:
  • +2 skill... 37gp, 95%
  • +1 UNI... 1173gp, 88%
  • +1 Stat... 3065gp, 51%
--------------------------------------------------------------------
  • +1 Stat... 4937gp, 5%
  • Apply masterwork rune for +1 Stat (or whatever)

Now, note the line - that's the farthest a godsave will get you, because godsaves do not work for 5% attempts.

So hopping servers to get another instance of godsave would maybe help saving 4275gp in this example.
It's not about the 4275 gp on the one item you've enchanted. It's about the fact that you want that hard 5% roll at the end. I'm also 99.9% sure you can sneak at least one more +2 skills onto the non-ring non-weapon item you've got above before the godsave line at tier 3 (I think you can get 3 4 +2 skills, a +1 unisave, and a +1 stat), unless the system got a nerf while I was gone- this invalidates your ability to masterwork rune a third stat onto the unisaves, but eliminates the need for it at all (the last time I tried to buy a masterwork rune they cost over 200K gold), which would push your savings up into the 200K+ range.

Even if my memory of the item it took me over a month RL time to successfully take has somehow become trash (it's possible, we're talking 5+ years ago when runes weren't even a thing yet), you're still examining it in the light of a single item. Getting up to that line in your post is going to generate failures, which cost more gold.

If you want 20 of them for quick, ready 5% pitches, god saves to prevent the failure on the last step can also save you up to 80K gold, or more if you're having a particularly unlucky run with the basin.

To some people, a few hundred thousand gold doesn't matter. To other people, these savings can get them to a hard 5% item (or multiples) without having to go play Wolf of Wallstreet first, which is even more time saved on top of the potential time spent getting to the line in your post, and let's not forget the time spent navigating the dweomercrafting conversations to get to that line in the first place can be particularly painful during a busy, laggy day. I'll take extra travel time and some RP dialogue over an extra conversation with the basin any day.

Pitching XP into the basin instead of 200K+ gold for a masterwork rune is a no-brainer for some chronically impoverished adventuring characters.
Maybe I've been unlucky, but I've never seen a masterwork rune for 200,000. They're usually 350+ haha~... and I actually think basin-ing is, statistically, cheaper by this method... although someone with a colored name above mentioned an enchanting thing on the horizon~?

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Re: God-Save Exploit, or No?

Post by Skibbles » Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:28 am

I think I've overall saved money, and made better items, by doing hard 5%s and avoiding master runes unless for rare/craft items like a ring of hiding or the new headband of protection.

Can't say I've ever seen a rune under 300k unless I was buying it from my own party after just finding it. Maybe this depends on the region the character is most active in.

I definitely spend less, or at least equal gold, making 8 affix items from scratch, but it takes a good while as someone that doesn't do the server hop thing.

Won't argue that a rune saves a lot of time making an easier item, or a very creative one, but time is something we all have in different amounts. It kind of sucks that time brings in the most gold, and the lack of time simultaneously makes the time saving item (rune) less accessible due to its cost, but that's just how any game is I think.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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