Dungeon Etiquette - First come, first serve?

[Sir Ven]

Good morning all,

A question about Dungeon Etiquette. Several times recently I've been out in the world of Arelith beating up bad guys, when a group comes up behind me in the dungeon and is like "Oh, someone beat us to it!" (as if the absence of bad guys, loot and/or a trail of bodies up to that point isn't a clue).

In nearly every case at this point my character is basically told that they can either join the group that has come in after him, or leave. This strikes me as incredibly rude, if only on an OOC level. Historically I've not said anything, but today my frustration got the better of me and I sent a few tells explaining why I thought it was rude.

I did not receive an apology, or an explanation or even a "Oh, you're right I didn't think of that!". So I find myself asking the question, genuinely - but obviously with a bias - what is the etiquette here? Am I simply being unreasonable in my expectations that I should be allowed to finish what I've started, with or without company?

Or is there a consensus in general that this is rude?

[Tabby]

I would say the nice thing todo is these:

If the new guys are level 30 or so, and not doing a writ.. they should leave.

If they are on a writ aswell, ask to join, if refused, leave..

In general, the one that arrived first is kinda the one that should decide..

BUT, hence.. the group is evil, are perhaps, underdarkers in surface dungeons, there can be conflicts and

And i fully understand..
Sometimes such an encounter can add RP.

What i generally hate, when such a thing happens, is the new group instantly press "invite to party" without a single hello.. that i feel, is.. general strange behaviour myself

As you have no idea of the one you asking to join is.. 1) necromancer, warlock, evil.. or vice versa..
2) just dont wanna tag along...

[-XXX-]

This is such a broad issue and most cases can be quite specific.

For me a good rule of the thumb is asking the question "what's more fun for the majority of involved players".

So yeah, if you're out soloing and a group catches up with your toon, surrendering the road or joining up should be a consideration.
On the other hand if another solo grinder wordlessly overtakes you during dungeoneering, that's just inconsiderate.


IMO this issue stems from the general challenge (or the lack of thereof) of the PvE content. Most character builds can casually solo almost all PvE content, so anyone "intruding" on a solo grind can almost feel like stealing at times

[Curve]

I used to do this kind of mental mathematics. Are they doing writs, am I doing writs, are they too high level? But, I’ve abandoned that. I keep it 100% in character. I don’t use tells to sort out what could potentially be very exciting conflict. I role play the situation.

[Amateur Hour]

What i generally hate, when such a thing happens, is the new group instantly press "invite to party" without a single hello.. that i feel, is.. general strange behaviour myself

As you have no idea of the one you asking to join is.. 1) necromancer, warlock, evil.. or vice versa..
2) just dont wanna tag along...

I can sort of defend the automatic invite. If the new guys have casters on their team, the chances of accidentally killing the guy who was there first due to weird NWN mechanics (because some spells will harm anyone not specifically partied with the caster, because Reasons) is non-negligible.

I tend to see party invitations the same way I see mechanical hostiles. It's an out-of-character mechanical action rather than an in-character one.

[chris a gogo]

Generally i consider it scummy if a new groups tries to take over a dungeon.
Have attacked such groups before now and seen others do the same and completely agree it's a fine response to someone stealing your plunder after you have battled halfway through a horde of enemies.

This said i do generally offer to join them or ask if they wish to join me when im alone as playing with others is why were all here.

[Xerah]

It's really scummy to say "get out, it's mine" regardless if you are there first or second. I don't believe this is just "my evil RP!!". It's really dumb reason to start a "conflict" over something so motivated by, let's get real here, OOC reasons of not wanting larger parties and not wanting to split gold further. Saying "Well, I hate gnomes so go away" is much less development potential than joining up and making snarky remarks about their dumb noses, lingering cheese scent, or explosion potential.

It's totally reasonable for these things to actually be a conflict when you're dealing with [known evil group] vs. [known good group] in epic level content, but most of the time this has happened to me is when meeting people I've never seen before on mid level stuff.

[Curve]

In nearly every case at this point my character is basically told that they can either join the group that has come in after him, or leave. This strikes me as incredibly rude, if only on an OOC level. Historically I've not said anything, but today my frustration got the better of me and I sent a few tells explaining why I thought it was rude.

I did not receive an apology, or an explanation or even a "Oh, you're right I didn't think of that!". So I find myself asking the question, genuinely - but obviously with a bias - what is the etiquette here? Am I simply being unreasonable in my expectations that I should be allowed to finish what I've started, with or without company?

If you think there should be a common etiquette or not I do not think that sending 'a few tells explaining why I thought it was rude' is a good idea. Personally I can't type -notells fast enough when I receive a string of tells trying to sort something out while we, through out characters, are currently sorting it out in the game.

Can it be scummy to demand someone leave a dungeon? Sure. Can it be scummy to demand to solo an area when others want to join up? Sure. These things are complicated. That is why for me the best course of action is to try and take it all IC, look at the actions of other characters as in character actions and respond accordingly. That prevents me from thinking 'MAN WHAT A SCUMMY PERSON!' and falling into the deep, deep well of negativity that can be so pervasive on online spaces.

In short, don't send tells if they are not polite banter or necessary information. You will not get the gratification you want.

[Hazard]

Join them, and then betray them >:)
.. or just tell everyone back in town what jerks those guys are.

I think these situations are best handled in character.

[xf1313]

If on writ, asking for enforcement always works.

Other cases would depend on character,
1, that you can ask for spar, to test if they are worthy, if your pc value it
2, hide, and steal loot, of you are thief and do not like them
3, happy to make more friend and join
4, tail behind and laugh at how bad they are in battle
5, betray in the end with hold person spell lol
6, one of the party would wait for 6 mins, carefully avoid meeting. happens when we are small evil party and might encounter big good guys.

[MRFTW]

Personally I can't type -notells fast enough when I receive a string of tells trying to sort something out while we, through out characters, are currently sorting it out in the game.

"I'm not getting the response I want from your character so I would like to speak to your character's manager"

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

On a mechanical, OOC level, I get where you're coming from. Sometimes, especially if you happen to have limited playtime, you have a material goal that you want to achieve so that you can be 'better' at the things you're going to do later numerically. I sympathize.

On the other hand, I largely fall into the camp of this thread suggesting you do your best to take it IC in all circumstances. Arelith isn't an MMO with instanced dungeons, and it's entirely feasible that two or more parties (ha!) will want the same thing from the same place at once. This might benefit you, it might benefit them, it might benefit both, or it might be a bad day for all involved. But whether positive or negative, if both sides throw themselves completely into the RP behind these meetings, you can guarantee a new connection in your story that has a good chance of creating entertaining narrative.

Whether I'm playing a good or evil character, I will almost always take on all willing participants in a trip with characters I don't already know - even if I have a reason IC to suspect their alignment differs from mine in a sharp way. A bit of tolerance in a wilderness meetup is usually good, even if for no other reason than to let the other person prove their disposition- or provide an opportunity to convince others of your own character's path in a surprisingly non-confrontational method.

Obviously there have to be some exceptions - I don't think, for example, that if a paladin stumbled upon a vampire in a dungeon feeding off of enemies, that anyone expects those two to party up for the good of the cause (although props if you can find an immersive way to make that work). But otherwise, common (monstrous) enemies trying to kill all the non-monsters is a great reason for disparate groups to form.

5, betray in the end with hold person spell lol

I prefer a banishment followed by a targeted dispel of the party's most warded tank if I'm going for this sort of maneuver, followed by a quick escape .

A properly placed dispel can collapse an entire party formation and the banish keeps them from producing a disposable tank to cover - but they still have a chance to work around it, unlike the hold spell unless someone is there to hit you with a freedom wand.

[AstralUniverse]

when I joined arelith long time ago it was actually a breach of the be nice rule to force someone to either join the group or leave, and agency over who stays to continue the dungeon belonged to the person who was there first.

Now, years later, after several cycles of staff, it has been considered entirely "Deal with it IC".

I can say from my personal experience that I've witnessed some wonderful RP and long lasting conflicts over what started as a brawl over the rights to dungeon in a place, but I also agree that from OOC perspective, when we factor the fact that just back tracking through an empty dungeon isnt a fun time investment for the one(s) who need to leave, but when you really think about it it's not much more of a waste of time than... say... waiting a few minutes for an afk player to return during RP, and that's something I believe we all gladly do and expect the same treatment, just for example. That's my two cents.

[Sir Ven]

I started this as a genuine question of "What's the etiquette here?" - which has been well and truly answered. I bear no great ill will towards anyone involved. I agree an IC resolution and discussion is best - and I regret the decision in this example to send a tell.

Unfortunately in this example, the opportunity for an IC resolution or conflict wasn't easily reached. My character was invited to join the other group and when he challenged the assumption that his options were to join them, or leave, he was insulted and the group promptly ran off to continue the dungeon.

At this point, continuing the RP/Conflict in any way meant running after them and trying to engage them as they cleared the dungeon. This either defaulted to me joining their party, which I didn't want to do, or it meant starting a confrontation while they were dealing with PvE content - which I thought would then be rude of 'me'.

Not wanting to be rude on an OOC level mylself, and feeling like I had no viable options to pursue, I was prompted me to try and reach out and explain OOCly why I thought the behaviour was rude. It wasn't intended to be aggressive to begin an OOC conflict - but admittedly, a mistake and one I wish I hadn't made.

I suppose, as I write this, I realise that the reason it was so frustrating was not because of the outcome, but because I felt like I had no agency. There was no confrontation, the attempt my character made to challenge the proposed course of action was basically ignored. I became a passenger in someone else's story, an unnecessary and optional extra. More an inconvenience than equal partner.

Ultimately I teleported out and logged off in my frustration. I then came back about 20 minutes later and took another crack at the dungeon without incident.

This conversation has been helpful for me, I at least have a better understanding of how and why I reacted as I did and I have a clear understanding of what I can expect from others.

[Kalos]

Usually if I am on a writ, and a group comes up behind me, I ask "oh, did the Writ agent also task you with [insert writ name here]?". Most groups, if they know you are on a writ and they are too high level, will IC arrange to leave. Not all, but most.

But everyone is a bit different, there have been groups I have joined and had great RP with and fun, and there have been plenty of groups I have abandoned and left, because they just want to grind the writs at full run speed with zero RP, and that's not why I am here.

But I agree, it should all be handled IC, and worst case scenario, you leave and come back later.

Good luck, and happy hunting (for monsters, loot, and RP).

[TurningLeaf]

On etiquette, if it was somewhere close to reasonable for you to get away with telling my group to fek off so you can solo under the 'there first' rule, I probably would go elsewhere. But would not totally sublimate the RP of, say, a CE bully to do so.

[Straxus]

I have always handled these situations in a fair, but IC fashion. Asking if said party is doing a contract (writ) is perfectly viable, it is the first thing I ask.
If I am doing a writ, I always offer to join groups doing them, sometimes they agree to join, other times, they leave and let me finish mine alone.

Hardest part, is figuring out if their level will work with yours, if not, the writ cannot be completed.

However, this does not mean you can't finish the dungeon together, and come back another time to complete the writ.

RP wise, you'll never know, except when you go to hand in the writ. At least how I think that bit should be handled.

Vast situations call for the party happening upon a solo character, they should respect their choice to join or not, and act accordingly... unless they are evil, then, they may be more motivated to create RP conflict. (Which if I were evil... I would)

Etiquette is a hard thing to enforce though, they wouldn't be out of line bulldozing past you, if their alignment supports it.

And there is no way IC you know what their alignment is.

If I happen upon this and the are rude, I will sneak past and take what ever I want before they get there... it is not evil, or a sense of righteousness. I am true neutral and don't care about characters who are rude, or evil, or higher level... I was there first.

[Marsi]

I suppose, as I write this, I realise that the reason it was so frustrating was not because of the outcome, but because I felt like I had no agency. There was no confrontation, the attempt my character made to challenge the proposed course of action was basically ignored. I became a passenger in someone else's story, an unnecessary and optional extra. More an inconvenience than equal partner.

What would you have them do?

Arelith is a social/group- oriented server. No-one gets to "book" a dungeon. The correct etiquette is to combine forces after quick and perfunctory "hail fellow adventurer" dialogue, and then roleplay with your new friends.

[Straxus]

I suppose, as I write this, I realise that the reason it was so frustrating was not because of the outcome, but because I felt like I had no agency. There was no confrontation, the attempt my character made to challenge the proposed course of action was basically ignored. I became a passenger in someone else's story, an unnecessary and optional extra. More an inconvenience than equal partner.

What would you have them do?

Arelith is a social/group- oriented server. No-one gets to "book" a dungeon. The correct etiquette is to combine forces after quick and perfunctory "hail fellow adventurer" dialogue, and then roleplay with your new friends.

See, again I point out, different situation does not allow for this outcome.

I have seen this go negative two ways.... either they ignored me being there and ran out with no RP
Or they refused to let me in their party... with no real RP done

So your answer is not correct

[Cabarcos]

When a group appears, I usually join them. If they are nice, good, and if they are not, I leave after finishing the dungeon/writ.
If they rush the dungeon, I go at my pace trying not to lose them.
Sometimes you find some shady people (I play good characters 99,9%), and it can be interesting going with them thinking if they are going to attack you, etc.
Some characters can be very annoying IC, so you can finish, leave, or attack after some RP depending on your character.
As I do, if you usually wander alone, it can be pretty hard to finish a dungeon alone without finding anyone along the way.
The only time I was on Myon was after finding a very "elven" party at the gnolls. They were very kind after finishing, and asked me if I wanted to go with them.

[Ruzuke]

I would like to think the Be Nice rule would apply.

If I enter into a dungeon someone else has started is it the nice (or right) thing to do to kick the person out of it? Would I want someone to do that to me?

Even if I was playing a CE <insert monster race here> is it fun for the other person if I terrorize them? It could be if it is a story we are building together in a cooperative RP world such as Arelith or while it is In Character is it causing Out of Character grief to others?

[Straxus]

I this morning (chicago time) had a really nice run in with a group, doing a certain writ, somewheres!

They rp'd the situation perfectly. not say we were here first... even though there were a couple different groups that came seperately.

they offered me to join, I accepted, we went on to clear said writ.

the cool thing that I saw, none of us coming into the party asked about gold, or any kind of loot, I asked about one raw gem, and let it go when they said they needed it.

but I totally snuck away and got one chest for myself.

[Dreams]

I used to worry about this stuff. These days I just welcome any help I can get. You end up enjoying the RP as you go, meet new people, and if someone suddenly summons something naughty out of nowhere there tends to be some fun conflict that comes out of it. Go with the flow for a better experience, it doesn’t really matter either way. You can always come back later if you need to.

[Eyeliner]

I think you could replace “course” for “dungeon” in this discussion and it would work just fine on a miniature golf forum.

[Straxus]

All I am saying, is if I am soloing a dungeon because no one came with me... and the a group comes along, and instead of asking me to join they say join or leave... I guarantee you that I am not going to just walk away... IC and OOC that is rude, and uncalled for.