"On the ley" Clarification Request

You have questions? We may have answers.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Post Reply
perseid
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:01 am

"On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by perseid » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:15 pm

I agree with the announcement that was made (currently just in the official Discord I think) warning players about not using their ability to scry as a justification to outright metagame the playerlist but there was one point that I found unclear in the example that was given. The scenario provided was of a pc referencing another character as "not on the ley" after checking the playerlist (to describe whether that player was currently present on a particular server or not). What wasn't explained is whether this terminology remains discouraged if an actual -scry is attempted and blocked or otherwise provides combat log feedback as well as what the suggested nomenclature would be for acknowledging the spell tried to connect but was mitigated.

Kalopsia
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Concourse Capaneus
Contact:

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Kalopsia » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:26 pm

Think of it this way. Would your character know their scry target was "not on the ley", rather than just warded or in a scry-proof area? Would you as a player know this without checking the player list?
If the answer is no, I think it'd be best to just RP that the scry didn't work for some unknown reason.

(That said, I'm no DM, so this is just my subjective opinion rather than an official stance)

perseid
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:01 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by perseid » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:33 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:26 pm
Think of it this way. Would your character know their scry target was "not on the ley", rather than just warded or in a scry-proof area?
Yes because the combat log would say "The target is warded against such divination" if they were warded for example.

User avatar
Morgy
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 720
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Morgy » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:34 pm

I find the whole phrase a bit cringey, because it's basically the player just saying 'not on the current server'.

Would be better if you just said 'I can't currently sight them' or 'Something is blocking my vision of them right now'.

perseid
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:01 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by perseid » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:39 pm

Morgy wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:34 pm
I find the whole phrase a bit cringey, because it's basically the player just saying 'not on the current server'.

Would be better if you just said 'I can't currently sight them' or 'Something is blocking my vision of them right now'.
I agree but there's also a very specific context I'm unsure on here which is why I thought clarification would be beneficial. "Don't acknowledge someone is on a specific server at all even if you -scry" is very different from "Don't assume awareness of a character's presence based on just skimming the playerlist."

Eyeliner
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:27 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:40 pm

Where it really gets dicey is if they're online but not on the current server. Is changing servers to track them down not allowed? I mean that's pretty cheesy but on the other hand there's five servers they could be on and if you can't have a "hunch" then scry because pointless pretty quickly, especially once you consider we're not all online at the same times and shared playtime windows can be narrow.

I mean a message that says you sense their presence but scrying failed would give you something to RP with, that seems like a way to meet in the middle.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6572
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:46 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:40 pm
Where it really gets dicey is if they're online but not on the current server. Is changing servers to track them down not allowed? I mean that's pretty cheesy but on the other hand there's five servers they could be on and if you can't have a "hunch" then scry because pointless pretty quickly, especially once you consider we're not all online at the same times and shared playtime windows can be narrow.

I mean a message that says you sense their presence but scrying failed would give you something to RP with, that seems like a way to meet in the middle.
It depends on why you're tracking them down and such. If you're just trying to meet up, with a -yoink, or even a -scry to get their location, to find them, to have a chat - then I don't think anyones going to be too fussy.

If you're trying to track them down to kill them, or to cause them hassel - then I think hopping server, checking the player list and, without even attempting the spell going 'Nope not here I don't 'sense them on the lay' is really cheesy. But at lot of this really comes down to the 'don't scry on people as soon as they log in.'
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:43 am

I'm glad the announcement was made, and I'm glad there was some consideration given to just looking for friendly reasons to play with someone, versus looking to gank.

I'm just concerned how something like this could ever be policed with the amount of players we have, and the fact that it would be very difficult if not impossible for the victim of this metagaming to know it even happened to be able to report it.

I think scry itself needs an overhaul. I'd like scry to just be something that's available to casters (without 3 feats), easier to ward against, and possibly requires the use of a fixture that must remain stationary for a full game day before it 'activates' or something, so people have to actually go home/to their base and use the scrying pool instead of just carrying around a diviner in their pocket that can tell you where the phattest gankbait is and how far their pants are down.

Yvesza
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:35 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Yvesza » Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:32 am

Someone with scrying can quickly figure out,
1) If the target is on the same server (You'll be notified if you can't find them, though this can mean they're also offline)
2) If the target is warded against scrying (Again, you'll be notified if you find them and then, if they're warded to prevent scrying)

Which parts of this information are considered to be IC? It's entirely reasonable for any scrier to know that you can't scry across servers, which tends to be what people refer to as "on the ley" (Or at least I think so?) At what point is the line between IC & OOC drawn?

User avatar
Flower Power
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:02 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Flower Power » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:50 am

Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:43 am
I'm glad the announcement was made, and I'm glad there was some consideration given to just looking for friendly reasons to play with someone, versus looking to gank.

I'm just concerned how something like this could ever be policed with the amount of players we have, and the fact that it would be very difficult if not impossible for the victim of this metagaming to know it even happened to be able to report it.

I think scry itself needs an overhaul. I'd like scry to just be something that's available to casters (without 3 feats), easier to ward against, and possibly requires the use of a fixture that must remain stationary for a full game day before it 'activates' or something, so people have to actually go home/to their base and use the scrying pool instead of just carrying around a diviner in their pocket that can tell you where the phattest gankbait is and how far their pants are down.
I think scrying as it exists ought to be ripped out completely because it's fraught with opportunities for abuse or for people to be really weird with it, and just replaced with some sort of expanded Deck of Stars-esque system, where-in information about the target and their surroundings are fed to you through obscure and potentially misinterpretable riddles, clues and symbols that will actually require a degree of effort, practice and experimentation to divine useful information from.

That'd be fun.
what would fred rogers do?

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:14 am

Flower Power wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:50 am
Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:43 am
I'm glad the announcement was made, and I'm glad there was some consideration given to just looking for friendly reasons to play with someone, versus looking to gank.

I'm just concerned how something like this could ever be policed with the amount of players we have, and the fact that it would be very difficult if not impossible for the victim of this metagaming to know it even happened to be able to report it.

I think scry itself needs an overhaul. I'd like scry to just be something that's available to casters (without 3 feats), easier to ward against, and possibly requires the use of a fixture that must remain stationary for a full game day before it 'activates' or something, so people have to actually go home/to their base and use the scrying pool instead of just carrying around a diviner in their pocket that can tell you where the phattest gankbait is and how far their pants are down.
I think scrying as it exists ought to be ripped out completely because it's fraught with opportunities for abuse or for people to be really weird with it, and just replaced with some sort of expanded Deck of Stars-esque system, where-in information about the target and their surroundings are fed to you through obscure and potentially misinterpretable riddles, clues and symbols that will actually require a degree of effort, practice and experimentation to divine useful information from.

That'd be fun.
That sounds good, too.

It would be a big shame to totally lose access to scrying in a forgotten realms setting, because it's one of the most iconic spells in the setting imo. Right up there with fireballs and magic missile!

But it's already SUPER diminished, an epic spell instead of a lower circle spell, behind a -THREE- feat investment, and even then you do not get 'full scry' benefits unless you are a wizard specialist giving up an entire spellschool for it. Even then you still get the very weak, epic-spell, Arelith version of scry.

We may as well just get rid of it? It's kind of sad to see it suffer.

User avatar
Flower Power
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:02 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Flower Power » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:18 am

The real problem is that scrying is too accessible right now: it's not locked behind a three feat investment, it's locked behind a single feat investment - SF Lore. I'd hazard a bet that the Secret of Scrying is one of the most commonly picked Loremaster secrets.
what would fred rogers do?

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: "On the ley" Clarification Request

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:36 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:18 am
The real problem is that scrying is too accessible right now: it's not locked behind a three feat investment, it's locked behind a single feat investment - SF Lore. I'd hazard a bet that the Secret of Scrying is one of the most commonly picked Loremaster secrets.
Oh right.

There's so many new classes and mechanics I can't remember all of them. I totally forgot loremaster even exists!!

You're totally right.

Post Reply