Derro Hide/MS

You have questions? We may have answers.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Post Reply
User avatar
legionetrangere
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:12 pm

Derro Hide/MS

Post by legionetrangere » Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:20 pm

Howdy!

Not sure if this is intended but my lvl 4 rogue derro with 20 MS/Hide isn't able to sneak past the sewer creatures beneath Andunnor.
I'm activating the MS quite before getting in the hostile NPCs line of sight, so i'm wondering if they have really high spot or i am doing something wrong (or maybe its a bug? lol)
PayadorPerseguido

satan
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:11 pm

Re: Derro Hide/MS

Post by satan » Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm

20 is quite low. It's unlikely you'll get past much.
Xyxz - Goblin spider druid. RIP
Flail - Orog weapon master RIP
Krom - Half orc Barbarian RIP
Glyngolyn - Firbolg Shadowdancer RIP
Jigjog - the least industrious Kobold ACTIVE
Muck - munching on carion. ACTIVE

MRFTW
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 5:37 am

Re: Derro Hide/MS

Post by MRFTW » Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:39 am

legionetrangere wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:20 pm
Howdy!

Not sure if this is intended but my lvl 4 rogue derro with 20 MS/Hide isn't able to sneak past the sewer creatures beneath Andunnor.
I'm activating the MS quite before getting in the hostile NPCs line of sight, so i'm wondering if they have really high spot or i am doing something wrong (or maybe its a bug? lol)
As stated above, 20 is low. At low levels, you want to break 30+ ASAP and aim for 50 shortly after.

The reason for this is detection rolls are D20 + Spot/Listen, rolled for NPCs every 6s, much more often (0.2s?) for PCs. That means that almost anyone can hit 20, and it's common to roll a 30 even with no investment due to a couple of random bonuses and a racial that you didn't take into account. Common low level creatures like wolves and bats have a decent amount of listen, and will often spot you until you hit 30, after which spottings should fall off precipitously.

Another thing you may see is that slimes, oozes and a few other creatures have true sight. You can sneak past them, but only by breaking line of sight and beating the MS vs Listen check. If you're in their LoS, they will come for you.

Once you get a few levels, it'll be smoother sailing. You're just witnessing the end of the low level of d20 systems where random chance can really ruin your day. Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1 in NWN, so you're at the horizon of where the randomness will start to fall off. I'm a big rogue fan and I can promise you it does get better.

User avatar
legionetrangere
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Derro Hide/MS

Post by legionetrangere » Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:36 am

Yeah, apparently its exactly that - the oozes have true sight, i didn't know this.
And i'm surprised 20 isn't enough, i thought i was being a badass with that amount on level 4 lol. Apparently not the case lol

Thanks for the replies both of you, much appreciated it!
PayadorPerseguido

The Vandals of Rome
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Derro Hide/MS

Post by The Vandals of Rome » Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:30 am

MRFTW wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:39 am
SNIP
The reason for this is detection rolls are D20 + Spot/Listen, rolled for NPCs every 6s, much more often (0.2s?) for PCs.
SNIP
It should be noted that the wiki entry on detection is very unclear and part of this is a myth.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Detect

Has the relevant lines:

Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
Creatures roll for hide/move silently/spot/listen: every 6 seconds


Emphasis mine. There's a distinction between a "detect" check and a roll.

Everything makes a detect roll once every six seconds. That roll stands for the entirety of that six seconds, as do any stealth rolls. The 5 times per second detection is for comparing those rolls. So imagine Jack has 5 spot and Jim has 20 hide. Jack rolls 13 and so his spot for the next six seconds is 18. Jim rolls 2 and so his hide for the next six seconds is 22. If there are no other conditional factors, every one of the 30 "detection checks" Jack makes will fail, because every one of them will be 18 versus 22.

So why do the detection checks get made so often? To account for situational modifiers. A range of factors will affect detection.

These are different for spot v hide and listen v MS. For hide some of the relevant factors are:

During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
+10 DC if you are in combat
+5 DC if the target is standing still
-5 DC if you are standing still
Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)


If we imagine that during those six seconds Jim is a fool and walks infront of Jack, while Jack remains still with detect mode on, Jack takes 5 off the DC because he is standing still and Jim is not. It is no longer 18 versus 22 but 18 versus 17. Jack detects Jim.

I know this might sound like an academic distinction but if we imagine a scenario wherein the spotter has 20 spot and the hider has 39 hide you can see why it matters.

In order to detect the hider (assuming no other conditions) you need to roll a 20 and the hider needs to roll a 1.

With rolls every 6 seconds this will take forty minutes on average.

With 5 rolls every second it's closer to a minute and a half on average.

MRFTW
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 5:37 am

Re: Derro Hide/MS

Post by MRFTW » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:23 pm

The Vandals of Rome wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:30 am
snip
Oooh, I didn't know that about the detection.

Knowledge is power, thanks mate!

Post Reply