What makes a good bad guy?

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Perplexia
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What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Perplexia » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:03 am

many times in the past, i've rolled up a new character somewhere along the "evil" axis of the alignment spectrum, with the intent to emulate my favourite antagonists from all different kinds of media (including arelith itself!)
however, time and time again, i've run into the same problem:

how do i make them fun?


this question can be interpreted a couple of ways

on the one hand, a villain has to be fun for others
more often than not, a villain's evil acts typically include some degree of harm being inflicted upon others. in spite of this, a significant amount of people i've seen, both in-game and on the forums, really don't enjoy being on the receiving end of PvP, for one reason or another
there are a few possible ways for the villain to avoid this issue, such as merely behaving in a hostile manner without ever escalating to actual combat, but to me this feels less "big bad evil guy" and more "disrespectful retail store customer"
-subdual is also a valid alternative, but let's be honest, a character that goes around beating everybody up just doesn't have the same effect as a serial killer, for example
one could also do things which are relatively harmless to players, but are otherwise unambiguously evil, such as animating the dead or summoning fiends, but depending on the character this may not be desirable, (in my opinion, the most interesting villain is a villain of principle)

and on the other hand, a villain also has to be fun for the one playing them
having your attempts at antagonistic roleplay be promptly shut down by those who would rather run away and lens, or better yet, killbash first, ask questions later, would be understandably demoralising for some people
another concern i see expressed fairly often on these forums is the threat of prospective villains getting outed "too early", and thus falling victim to constant "scrygank squads", or being exiled from every surface settlement simultaneously
now, these aren't necessarily things i, myself, am concerned with, i believe there are a plethora of ways to get around these issues, but i still think it's worth talking about these things regardless


so, here is what i would ultimately like to discuss

to those who have roleplayed with the bad guys:
- what did you enjoy about your experiences with them, both IC and OOC?
- what would make you more inclined to stop and engage with an antagonist, as opposed to fleeing or jumping straight to PvP?
- can you give any examples of non-PvP acts of villainy, that have had a similar in-character impact? are there any ways to make PvP more enjoyable for those on the receiving end?
- what do you think makes for a fun and engaging villain, overall?

to those who have roleplayed as the bad guys:
- how early in your character's life did they "come out" as evil? do you feel this was too early? too late?
- what can you do to make a character feel truly evil, beyond simply their race/class/green skull portrait/excessive use of colour 63?
- what solutions can you offer to the aforementioned problems of being mass-exiled, or regularly -scried upon?
- what advice would you give to anyone who is looking to play a villain for the first time?
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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:28 am

I feel like there are a couple of points that really help your villain be as successful and engaging as possible, one to do with Roleplay and another less so.

1) Don't be evil for evil's sake. While is it a perfectly valid roleplay path, being evil for evil's sake is bland. Imagine a follower of Bhaal who goes around murdering people left and right, just because they worship Bhaal and little else. Sure, it makes sense, but there's nothing else for other people to grab on, other than 'Yep, evil murder guy'.

Instead have evil be a byproduct of your character's motivations and story. I can give you an example of a very old character I played, Tamarie. She was a Faithless ranger, due to her past she had a grudge against the Deities, she hated all of them (from Cyric to Eldath), found them liars, hypocrites. But she knew she couldn't touch them, so she settled for the next best thing, Clerics. She reasoned that if she removed the clerics, the respective Deities would suffer.

I didn't go about simply going "Oh, you a cleric of X?" *toggle hostile and attack*. Instead she gathered information, she was general an Snuggybear, she told people she hated the Deities, loud and clear, to let people know her motivations, what she was about. She went so far as leaving messages on boards. When she found a Cleric she wanted to hunt, she trailed them, studied them, confronted them on their Faith, and told them clear their were marked for death in the future, maybe soon.

She actually didn't kill that many Clerics, I think it might have been a single one. But it created a lot of roleplay. She was hunted back by stronger clerics, she made deals with some clerics to postpone their hunting, if they aided in the hunt against other clerics, she was forced by some 'good' folk to hunt clerics of evils faiths lest she be executed for her past crimes, it was all really fun.

2) Never compromise roleplay for a kill or mechanical advantage. It is easy to kill PCs, it's easy to start PvP within the rules. But if it comes to PvP don't do the minimum to avoid breaking the rules. Don't do it, go the whole mile. Don't be a killing machine, don't kill as efficiently as possible, allow outs. Pretend to run out of arrows when your mark is about to die. Pretend to run out of hastes when your mark is fleeing. It is fine for you to OOCly let your opponent escape. ICly just treat it as luck on their part, bad luck on yours, or some sort of Fate intervening. Roleplay flourishes with conflict, allowing someone to escape allows that conflict to spread, to linger for just a bit longer, to make the next meeting much more tense.

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:37 am

So much what Shadow said.

Let evil being a side-effect of your character pursing what is (at least to them!) a reasonable, sensible goal. Give people something they can argue with, reason with, dispute and dissuade. Go in with the expectation, out of character, that you will lose and be prepared to give people meaningful victories. In the end, if you tell a good story, that's the win. That's the victory.

Evil doesn't need to be some great cosmic thing. I quote Abercrombie at every single opportunity, and I'll do it again! Small selfishnesses often make for a more compelling villain because they're immediate, real, and relatable.

"Evil turned out not to be a grand thing. Not sneering Emperors with their world-conquering designs. Not cackling demons plotting in the darkness beyond the world. It was small men with their small acts and their small reasons. It was selfishness and carelessness and waste. It was bad luck, incompetence, and stupidity. It was violence divorced from conscience or consequence. It was high ideals, even, and low methods.” - Red Country

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:14 pm

Thinking back to all my experiences with evils functioning as evils, the ones I have found the most fun and engaging are the ones who take a page from the Team Rocket playbook. I don't mean that they always lose, but think about what Team Rocket does:
  1. They come up with extensive (some might say overcomplicated) plans for everything.
  2. They interact extensively with their target(s), not just when they're trying to steal the pokemon.
  3. They have internal bonds that they take time nurturing.
  4. They have aesthetic.
Team Rocket made a good villain because they were narratively interesting, and they ended up prioritizing narrative utility over efficacy every time. And that's what we're ultimately all here for: narrative utility.

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Leika » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:51 pm

The villains I find most interesting to play and play with aren't necessarily those that kill randos (or what my friends call "comic book villains").

No, the best bad guys should help create a story. After all, I feel role play is a cooperative game, even when characters are at odds with one another. Character death doesn't need to be involved ever or can be very limited.

The best bad guys have codes, creeds, and patterns. They depth to their personalities. They don't overtly exhibit qualities of the "dark triad" or "dark tetrad." Don't get me wrong, they will often possess these traits. But, they've found a way to fit into society, because living in society has many benefits.

Most of the time they may be considered harmless. You might have partied with one. You might consider one to be your next door neighbor. They're the guy/gal that everyone thinks is "such a great person." But, they have one (or a few) personality traits that drive them down an evil path (e.g. ambition, greed, narcissism).

Bonus points if the reasons that drive them down this path are also grey. (e.g. a strong belief in religion, a desire to help the world, an old grudge)

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Aradin » Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:03 pm

Shadowy Reality makes a couple great points. Giving your villain depth is an important step in making them believable and not a caricature. If you can be a villain who does evil things for a reason people can empathize with, I think you gain a lot of traction roleplay-wise. And as Amateur Hour says, prioritizing narrative utility is something I'd value far more than mechanical utility. People don't remember a powerful character, they remember a powerful story.

To offer a personal experience, I'd say my most successful villain was Ikarus the ogre elder. He picked a war with Guldorand - when modern-day Westcliff was all Guldorand was - on behalf of the ogre NPCs in the Skull Crags. Ikarus' backstory was that his son had been killed by the Shields of Guldorand during a routine ogre-culling and he was a grieving father out for revenge.
I think a key part to his success was the narrative presented was interesting enough to the various people of Team Good for them to accept, full stop. Not once in Ikarus' lifetime did anyone ever say "You're lying, that never happened (even though yes, I created that event as part of Ikarus' backstory and the son-killing event itself never occurred in-game)." Every character in Guldorand that got involved instead said "Yeah, fair enough, our past Shields probably DID do that.". It was a believable motive and premise. If other players accept the premise of your villainy, it's granted legitimacy. That, I think, is really important when it comes to roleplaying a villain. If your narrative and your motivations are unbelievable, it's hard to get people interested in engaging with you.

Ikarus absolutely did evil things - conjured demons, planted bombs in Guldorand's copper mine, placed sickness-spreading totems across the Skull Crags, hired bounty hunters to kill Shields of Guldorand, offered trophies for those who brought back corpses - but people on Team Good were still able to empathize with him because he was very outspoken about his grief. They understood why he was doing evil things. They didn't agree with him, but they didn't dismiss his motivations as just another raving lunatic bad guy.
I got a lot of interesting roleplay in discussing those motivations with people on Team Good who thought they could dissuade Ikarus from his warpath. And on the end of the Underdark, people flocked to Ikarus because they were ready to fight on his behalf. For them, he wasn't a vicious warchief but a wise elder who offered guidance, hosted feasts, settled disputes, etc. He had layers. Like an onion.

To answer your questions:
- how early in your character's life did they "come out" as evil? do you feel this was too early? too late?
Based on this question I can tell you're playing a surface evil haha. If you play a monster, you don't have to hide being evil. Ikarus never hid a thing, he was an evil ogre from the start.
I think you might get the old advice of "be level 30 and geared up before you start being evil" but I don't agree with that, because playing an evil character doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be PVPing people left and right. That depends on what you want to acheive as a player, and the specifics of this particular character's narrative. I think the notion of "coming out" as evil is a meta angle to take. Your character is *already* evil. It doesn't turn off or on like a lightswitch. And you don't need to be killing paladins to be evil. You can represent that evil in smaller ways (read below).
If by "coming out as evil" you really mean "when do I start my public and outspoken plot that I know is going to bring level 30 gank squads down on me" then the problem of those ganksquads is with your plot, not your character level. If you want to PVP people and win then yes, wait until level 30. If PVP isn't the purpose of your plot, I don't see any reason why you should wait to have fun until you're level 30. Go have fun now!

- what can you do to make a character feel truly evil, beyond simply their race/class/green skull portrait/excessive use of colour 63?
The little stuff is great. Being xenophobic, rejecting the virtues of good-aligned characters you meet, emoting that you're cooking a live creature instead of a dead one, gambling and cheating, stealing from the dead, abusing weaker-willed characters; there are a thousand ways to roleplay evil that don't need to form a fundamental aspect of your character, but contribute to the mosaic of them as an evil person.

- what solutions can you offer to the aforementioned problems of being mass-exiled, or regularly -scried upon?
Being regularly scried upon I look at as an opportunity. That there are people interested enough in my plots to scry on me is flattering, and an opportunity for roleplay rather than a detriment to it. The key is offering a compelling enough narrative. If you do that I've found that people don't leap to shut you down as quick as they can. They want to engage on a deeper level. They DO want to shut down the maniac that runs around PVPing people.
In either case, losing isn't the end of a villain. Take it all in stride, shape it into your overall plot, add it to your story. The success of a villain isn't binary in whether you win or not.

Anecdotally, Ikarus led his whole war effort out in the open. His ogre-brained schtick was that he didn't care if his enemies knew exactly what plot he was going to pull. It was all the sweeter because they knew exactly what would happen and would still lose to his horde (theoretically at least haha). By offering his crucial information to everyone, all the time, spies and scrying became worthless. Not saying it'll work for every villain but it was a fun angle to take.

- what advice would you give to anyone who is looking to play a villain for the first time?
1) Respect other characters. If you treat the people who come after you as serious threats, and respect them even when you win, the stakes of your story are raised all the higher. If you constantly tell everyone they're worthless weaklings, then you're handicapping your own story because now all your enemies are worthless weaklings. And what glory is there in beating worthless weaklings? It's so, so much sweeter to build up your enemy as some impressive SoBs. Then not only do their players feel good about engaging you, but if you lose to them you lost to a mighty foe, not a weakling. And if you beat them, you beat a champion of the light, not a weakling. I can't say it enough and I wish I saw more of it in conflict in Arelith: respect your enemy, and they'll more often than not respect you as well. You get out what you put in.

2) Respect other players. If you PVP someone, check in with them afterwards to make sure there are no hard feelings. If players on the opposing side of your plots message you about how it's stressing them out, talk with them OOC and find a good way to resolve things IC; perhaps their character can duck out of the conflict. We're all here to have fun, and by virtue of playing a villain you often impose your story upon other people. If people aren't having fun with it, either work with them to make it fun for them or allow them to exit the narrative gracefully.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:38 am

to those who have roleplayed as the bad guys:
- how early in your character's life did they "come out" as evil? do you feel this was too early? too late?

Level 3, Perfectly fine, depending on your actions. You won't get killed by team good for small acts of unkindness, much like your level, your evil should grow along.

- what can you do to make a character feel truly evil, beyond simply their race/class/green skull portrait/excessive use of colour 63?

This is a bit of a flavor, each their own.

My blantant evil necro girl came in, pale, rusted armor, confused of social interactions.

While my evil politican girl just made deals that lead her into more and more power.

Do note that both of them managed great evil before lvl 20, your limit is truely in your rp.

- what solutions can you offer to the aforementioned problems of being mass-exiled, or regularly -scried upon?

Disguise is nice, but the true power lies in "I don't care". (If you disguise, use a different login aswell, most players are champs, but the temptation of seeing your login come in screen is infernal lvl temptation)

- what advice would you give to anyone who is looking to play a villain for the first time?

Team "good" can tend to out evil evil just for the sake of the "greater good".

Hope that helps.
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Marsi
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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Marsi » Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:48 am

The best villains are campy and have actionable, knowable goals.

I've always thought psychological depth is a little overrated. It's not to say its unimportant, just that it should be the secondary priority. "Really deep, subtle" villains I find are risk-averse, tend not to make things happen, and only really show their "villainry" in safe, predictable environments like a DM event.

Also, a good villain needs to lose and let themselves be killed off eventually. I don't know why this is true, but in my experience even great villains played by the very best roleplayers become sucky once they've outstayed their welcome.

I consider a villain to be a very specific role that is not merely an antagonistic character. A Banite could be a villain, but not all Banites are villains.

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:39 am

Marsi wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:48 am
The best villains are campy and have actionable, knowable goals.

I've always thought psychological depth is a little overrated. It's not to say its unimportant, just that it should be the secondary priority. "Really deep, subtle" villains I find are risk-averse, tend not to make things happen, and only really show their "villainry" in safe, predictable environments like a DM event.

Also, a good villain needs to lose and let themselves be killed off eventually. I don't know why this is true, but in my experience even great villains played by the very best roleplayers become sucky once they've outstayed their welcome.

I consider a villain to be a very specific role that is not merely an antagonistic character. A Banite could be a villain, but not all Banites are villains.
I agree with all of these points. I think the most fun I've had with villains were simple concepts, characters who wanted one or two specific things and were willing to do anything to get them, even at the cost of their livelihood.

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Hazard » Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:16 pm

63 black

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:26 pm

Play with the mindset of making other players time more fun, rather than your own.
Get minions to make your evil scheme's almost a reality before the heroes crush you.
Stick to your driving goal and create schemes with that in mind.
Avoid killing your victims, always give them a chance to run away, and never expect to be treated fairly in return.(saves getting burned out and disappointed when it happens).

This doesn't mean never kill, if you go after a target let them live in fear knowing they will never be safe from you or your minions..etc..But be all means kill any guards, hangers on and without fail any hero that is lawful stupid and stands defiant in the face of total loss.

Don't use a monster race, as monsters are monsters not villains.

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:21 pm

I've always like the Darth Revan type of villians. The good guy who "does what others can't" in order to save the realm.

The Paladin that would burn a village of innocents, rather then risk a single warlock escaping.

The hero who sides with a lesser evil in order to defeat a greater foe, corrupting themselves in the process.

Etc, etc.

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by DM Poppy » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:21 pm

It is good to plan how you lose and how you can expand on that story. Bad Guys seldom succeed in a world of Heroes and with the settings in mind, they are unlikely to really blow up the Government Building etc etc.

So if you are going for the big plots, have an idea in mind of how you can lose graciously.
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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:20 pm

Presentation. And to an extent, how willing you are to work with other players/their concepts.

The most enjoyable evil players were ones that were more interested in telling a story and building a setting/story with other players. The absolute worst evil players i've dealt with were ones that would run up and stomp on people whilst cackling 'FEAR MY EVIL".

-Create a motive. Keep it basic at first, and grow on it/expand on it as you develop your character. Feel free to abandon it entirely even if you find your character develops a certain way. "I started this business because I enjoyed killing for pay. But somewhere in the middle of all the killing, it became less about the gold and more about the message each death left", for example.

-Try to interact with as many people as possible. Not just other like-minded evil doers, but the opposing side as well. Some of the most memorable villians in Arelith were memorable not because they'd kill you and force you into slavery, but because there was a lot of face-to-face buildup through tense meetings, encounters, and debates long before it came to blows.

-Despite the popular trope, you do -not- need go out of your way to make your characters motives/beliefs sympathetic. When written poorly, this comes off as disingenuous or contradictory. Creating someone who is cold, merciliess, but not inherently wrong can be far more compelling than trying to come off as hypocritical.

Let me give an example; lets say i'm a cruel, ruthless military tactician. I have tendancy of commiting horrific war crimes wherever I go, but I've got a solid track record and said war crimes have throughly drained both resources and moral from the enemies side.

"I give the orders I give and order the men I do for one reason. Results. Results that save the lives of those serving me. The struggles of a man in training will harden and preserve him for the true horrors that lie head. I will rip the food from the mouths of your starving citizens if it means saving hundreds of mine.

Every "crime" you say i've commited? I did it for our people. The soldiers I murdered in their sleep? The well I poisoned that sickened an entire city? The children I took hostage? The village I pillaged before the winter? Each move I made saved hundreds of thousands of our own men on the open battlefield. We took to the field not against 10 thousand strong, but a rabble of frightend, sickened, starving men hobbled by a commander thinking of his family. Not of the battle. Not of us. And it was because of this. These "crimes" our men can return to their homes. Their families.

They can live to fight as patriots another day. For it is upon their efforts. Their struggles are what build our army. Our nation. And as those leading the nation, we have a duty. An obligation to raise our men and lift their burdens when able.

This. Is. War. True War.

Not the storybook tales you've deluded yourself into believing this is. We both swore to do whatever it would take to save our people; Only one of us here seems to have the resolve to do it".


Trying to double down on "I FEELS BAD ABOUT THIS" would come off as disingenuous at this point. I can only burn down so many orphanages before its obviously just lip service. No, I will murder your entire family, put their heads on a pike and reanimate the headless corpse to work in the coal mines. I guarentee no one will try harboring fugitives after this.

-Despite what I said above, you don't -need- to go Pufferfish-to-the-walls overboard. Dabbling in the "evil morally grey" area works as well. While you're motives and reasons don't have to be sympathetic, they -should- make sense.

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Re: What makes a good bad guy?

Post by xf1313 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:52 am

The worst evil I’ve played never got a chance to be evil, aside from summon mummies and a dragonlich in town. He pretend to be good so often that he is a total saint, more so than paladin in arelith.....

The more fun villain speak like one, always ask for payments and mock people, mug the helpless newbies (pretend to rob them of cause). And this one relies on finding some evil buds. So sencliff or UD start works.

Now talk about unfun evil pvp... The kill-bashers that do not give chance to allow a nice dialog are the very worst. Send a tell and arrange the event works for everyone.

I play both good and evil plus everything in between. Funny fact, good guys on arelith are thirsting for evil to pop up so they can play good. Some went a bit too far and scare evil ones away LOL.
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