Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

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UilliamNebel
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Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by UilliamNebel » Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:45 am

Was wondering if the status quo, and direction for Arelith, still follows the below wiki article?

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Playing_any_UD_race

Just want to make sure. Been running into UD racial characters on the surface, in places like Mayfields, openly going about with no disguise or stealth effort. And several, IC, have referenced guards not having an issue with them being there. Just want to make sure that is more so a limitation of guard A.I. set up, not a realistic IC expectation of surface to UD race treatment.

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Eira » Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:56 am

The article is correct. Monsters shouldn't be openly on the surface without caution. Please report instances of this happening; guards would not be okay with monsters being around, even when a DM is not controlling the NPC.

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Morgy » Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:58 am

It would be cool if NPC guards were inherently hostile to monster-tagged PCs.. but then I suspect we’d see a lot of dead guard npcs around the place. This would be fine if it was once in a while, but I suspect it would be very frequent.

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by MRFTW » Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:17 pm

What race(s), specifically?

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Seekeepeek » Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:53 pm

Some races are okay, while others are not, it kinda got more blurred over the years.
From what I recall:
Kenku, duergar, deep gnome, Fey'ri (demon elfs),Tiefling and Red dragon disciple are okay on surface even if some of them look evil in appearance.

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Dec 25, 2022 6:00 pm

Seekeepeek wrote:
Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:53 pm
Some races are okay, while others are not, it kinda got more blurred over the years.
From what I recall:
Kenku, duergar, deep gnome, Fey'ri (demon elfs),Tiefling and dragon disciple are okay on surface even if some of them look evil in appearance.
This is correct, though I believe the wiki does warn them that people are going to react with caution and/or fear around them, and to expect that kind of roleplay.


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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by riffraff » Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:15 pm

Morgy wrote:
Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:58 am
It would be cool if NPC guards were inherently hostile to monster-tagged PCs.. but then I suspect we’d see a lot of dead guard npcs around the place. This would be fine if it was once in a while, but I suspect it would be very frequent.
I was wondering about this, honestly, as I encountered a UD character in Mayfields/Widershins the other day and it felt super weird that the NPCs just happily watched my character and another PC interrogating them. I assumed guards would attack on sight and that NPCs would flee. I'm suddenly understanding why there can be piles of NPC corpses in Cordor on occasion (the poor Night Gardener). :?
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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Ebonstar » Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:58 pm

perhaps a kill script reminder would fix those who like to wander above like they own it
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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Cuchilla » Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:23 pm

Over the years, I believe Bendir had kill scripts for certain UD races (drow, or am I wrong), at least there were a pop-up message for any UD'er that you felt uncomfortable when the guards looked suspicious at you (not sure about the exact text)

I'd like to point out what Irongron wrote about it in that link above:

"Now I don't like the kill scripts, I felt they strangled RP, conflict, and treated our players like they couldn't be trusted to roleplay their race properly. Yet if this problem returns, I will definitely either ask they are reintroduced, or remove the offending races as a playable option."

Especially:

"...treated our players like they couldn't be trusted to roleplay their race properly..."

There are tons of recommandations on the wiki on how to play different UD races properly. And depending on what UD race you're seeing in a certain surface place, and doing things there you believe they shouldn't, maybe a message to a DM would be appropriate? General conclusions are probably difficult to make.

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:59 pm

Check out this wiki page

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Category:Race

Races that are 'monsterous' should not be openly walking around surface settlments, and honestly probably shouldn't feel too comfortable in any sort of heavily surface-race-npc-trafficed area (e.g. Sibiyad, Greyhammer, Westcliff, Sencliff ect). Certainly they should Not be owning property of any sort there.

Derugar are a little wierd in that they can feel more comfortable visiting surface settlments openly - (with the exception of Brog and maybe Bendir) but shouldn't be owning property there or taking citizenship/civil service.

Gloaming/Imaskari/Svierfneblin* are wierd in that they are underdark starting races that none the less can live and be active on teh surface as they wish (though gloamings and I think Svirfs do suffer from sunlight penalities)

Vampires/Rackshasa can be as active on the surface but it's suggested that they keep their real 'persona' hidden if they want to do so.

*- Ok, gotta admit not 100% sure on Svifs, if other DMs want to correct me there please do.
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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Good Character » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:29 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:59 pm
Derugar... shouldn't be owning property there or taking citizenship/civil service.
I've been always curious about this. Is Guldorand an exception to this given the charter and that a duergar NPC owns one of the most important shops in the city? If Guldorand is an exception, exception to which part? Owning property, being able to run the settlement, or both?

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:33 pm

Good Character wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:29 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:59 pm
Derugar... shouldn't be owning property there or taking citizenship/civil service.
I've been always curious about this. Is Guldorand an exception to this given the charter and that a duergar NPC owns one of the most important shops in the city? If Guldorand is an exception, exception to which part? Owning property, being able to run the settlement, or both?
That's a good question and honstly not one I feel confident answering. I'd rather ask Irongron that. I'm inclined to say no to both - (though the property aspect I think at least in freeport would make sense) just for ease. But I'd welcome his overruling me on that.
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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Cuchilla » Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:03 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:59 pm
.../Svierfneblin* are wierd in that they are underdark starting races that none the less can live and be active on teh surface as they wish (though gloamings and I think Svirfs do suffer from sunlight penalities)

*- Ok, gotta admit not 100% sure on Svifs, if other DMs want to correct me there please do.
Whilst expecting a DMs answer, my take on it.

The issue with svirfs is not what they can, but they would do. Svirfs are supposed to be very, very secluded, and very much inclined to stay near their village, not get too far from home, like staying for a longer time on the surface. If they do, they'd prolly feel very uncomfortable, especially with the light, as they are used to move around in complete darkness. They do celebrate the stars once a year, but that doesn't mean they yearn to get back to the surface. Callarduran Smoothhand lead his people into the Underdark long before drow and duergar, and unlike drow and duergar they were never ousted from the surface, they choose the Underdark out of love (for gems).

On Arelith, there has traditionally been a possibility to connect Brog, Bendir and the Grotto, so I presume Svirfs feel safe there for shorter stays, as long as they can get safe back to their dark home. Any other place on the surface, they would probably try to pass through as fast as possible. The rubies they seek, will not be there ;)

The days where Bendir was lead by two svirfneblin sisters are long gone :D

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Spriggan Bride » Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:32 pm

Svirfneblin are part of the Earthkin Alliance, can start in Brog and can take Brog/Bendir etc writs (as well as a few other surface areas) so the server supports them operating on the surface to some degree. While they're traditionally an extremely skittish race I think some allowance has to be made for two reasons... one is that if they were as skittish as in lore they'd simply never be seen and should just be NPCs, two is the environment-- if they're raised under Brog with dwarves and hin and rock gnomes running around, or if they made their way to Anundor, they're probably more outgoing, eccentric and possibly outcasted members of their race. That's just how I see it having played many of them-- I imagine there are extremely secluded and xenophobic svirf cities out there but our PCs (and I guess, NPCs like the Tinkers and IIRC there's even a svirf merchant in Sibiyad) are the rare few who venture out for whatever reason.

If you ask me there ought to be more suspicion towards them from non-earthkin surface players (mostly I just see indifference, probably because those players legit don't know what to do around svirf PCs so they do the minimum) and maybe they should have light penalties (they don't), but as it is now it's pretty common and expected for them to be roaming up above.

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:21 am

I checked with the staff with Svifs and they're fine on the surface! Akin to gloamings and Imaskeri. Though they do have their own settlment though , so I think it'd be best if Svirf players tried (if possible) to take property there rather than elsewhere, and there's of course a matter of general quality of rp. but that's an rpr issue, not a rules issue. Svirfs are fine on the surface.
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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Hazard » Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:50 am

I think Guldorand allowing duergar as normal citizens (that seems to be what the module implies, at least), if true, is really cool and a great step towards a more authentic and normal d&d city.

Arelith can get VERY zealous when it comes to race and faith. Not saying it's bad. It's just how it is on the island, and I consider it an interesting and IC phenomenon, but it can be a little stiffling when you want to play a certain character idea and are basically given the option of, okay. You can be good/permanently undercover and play normally, or you can wear 63 black and live in the underdark, do not pass go do not collect drow girlfriend.

I know the topic has been beaten to death but it would be nice if there was a surface settlement that at least begrudgingly just allowed most races in favor of trade. Sort of like we keep saying the hub/andunor is supposed to be, but like.. actually.

Players can stop other players from using the hub based on personal conflict, even when it is a merchant PC doing merchant things, and the DMs are alerted, the peacekeepers aren't being used to correct the behaviour. A few instances of this happening tells me that Andunor is not actually the 'trade comes first' type of city as advertised. It has a strong "national" identity, and a stranger who hasn't "proven" themselves, even if they are just standing around selling things, can be attacked/chased off/killed in public without reason. But as long as it's IC, I can't actually blame players for wanting to do this, becuase it IS the underdark and there are so many extreme evils there it can often make more sense to behave that way, than the way we're expected to. Andunor has dominant Drow houses (TWO!), Mindflayer and Undead NPCS. Two of the three districts guarded by a retinue of literal immortal beings of pure evil, Devils, Demons. It has a lot of extremes going for it beyond 'trade first'.

Players will naturally want to stake a claim and own a part of the module, that's fine. I really think a settlement existing somewhere like, On the surface, but maybe it even has access to a part of the UD? A settlement that is filled with something "normal" for the setting, like the common playable races. Nothing too openly extreme either way, so that you can even lure in some 'good' characters and their gold. A place that is actually trade first, would be awesome. If there is anything unsavory like a drow, or a paladin, those are tucked away where they won't scare off customers. Stuff like that. It would allow good and evil characters to mingle a bit more and experience each other in ways beyond just open conflict and covert conflict.

UNRELATED: Where do Shadovar fit into this stuff?

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Cuchilla » Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:23 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:21 am
I checked with the staff with Svifs and they're fine on the surface! Akin to gloamings and Imaskeri. Though they do have their own settlment though , so I think it'd be best if Svirf players tried (if possible) to take property there rather than elsewhere, and there's of course a matter of general quality of rp. but that's an rpr issue, not a rules issue. Svirfs are fine on the surface.
Thanks for the clarification <3

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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Melchizedek14 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:27 pm

Hazard wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:50 am

Players will naturally want to stake a claim and own a part of the module, that's fine. I really think a settlement existing somewhere like, On the surface, but maybe it even has access to a part of the UD? A settlement that is filled with something "normal" for the setting, like the common playable races. Nothing too openly extreme either way, so that you can even lure in some 'good' characters and their gold. A place that is actually trade first, would be awesome. If there is anything unsavory like a drow, or a paladin, those are tucked away where they won't scare off customers. Stuff like that. It would allow good and evil characters to mingle a bit more and experience each other in ways beyond just open conflict and covert conflict.

Isn't this what the Trading Post in the Underdark is supposed to be? Halfway between Brog and Andunor. That's the reason the NPC Ogre who runs the place gives when you talk to him anyway.


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Re: Monster / UD races on the surface, status quo?

Post by Hazard » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:39 pm

Melchizedek14 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:27 pm
Hazard wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:50 am

Players will naturally want to stake a claim and own a part of the module, that's fine. I really think a settlement existing somewhere like, On the surface, but maybe it even has access to a part of the UD? A settlement that is filled with something "normal" for the setting, like the common playable races. Nothing too openly extreme either way, so that you can even lure in some 'good' characters and their gold. A place that is actually trade first, would be awesome. If there is anything unsavory like a drow, or a paladin, those are tucked away where they won't scare off customers. Stuff like that. It would allow good and evil characters to mingle a bit more and experience each other in ways beyond just open conflict and covert conflict.

Isn't this what the Trading Post in the Underdark is supposed to be? Halfway between Brog and Andunor. That's the reason the NPC Ogre who runs the place gives when you talk to him anyway.

I thought so too, but you can't even use that portal if you aren't an UD race, outcast or slave anymore.


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