Loremaster and Spellcasters

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-XXX-
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Loremaster and Spellcasters

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:51 pm

Would giving Discipline as a class skill to Loremaster be busted?
As it stands Loremaster services mainly melee builds and Shaman.

Augmented casting is still not enough to retain good CL while doing a three class split spellcaster build (other than Shaman).
It'd be nice to multiclass mages into something else than Ranger for discipline skilldump. Are there any builds that'd be broken with this?

MRFTW
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Re: Loremaster and Spellcasters

Post by MRFTW » Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:48 pm

Would Wiz / PM / LM be too much of a livelord if you can't KD them?

I don't play one so I really couldn't comment.

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Loremaster and Spellcasters

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:09 am

This would be busted.

Loremaster is already solid on other casters. Not as optimal as 3 ranger giving disc, but different flavour. If loremaster gave disc, I can't think of any caster that wouldn't take it as their dip.
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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-XXX-
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Re: Loremaster and Spellcasters

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:30 am

IDK, I'd consider any build without discipline to be dead in the water in most PvP scenarios*
It's fairly difficult to get servicable discipline on a non-str build - it requires at minimum a skill focus and expensive gear to get at least to 65.

Ranger dip nets an epic feat while Loremaster represents a feat tax.
There's virtually no downside to LM dip for melee builds and Shaman - LM gives them everything they'd wish for and more.
For spellcaster builds however, this represents a major opportunity cost in either missing out on discipline or embracing low CL life.

It's possible to do a 22/5LM/3Rng split, which results in 25CL that pushes the build away from conjuration and toward necromancy** - so we're mostly discussing flavour here already.


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*this includes PM builds that rely on expertise (no spellcasting) to sit behind 60AC and are still one true strike potion away from defeat most of the time.
**25 CL results in lackluster conjuration summons, but mummy dust is not dependent on CL and can be used at full potential.

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Loremaster and Spellcasters

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:43 pm

I know it's a contrary opinion, but since the Knockdown changes, discipline isn't nearly as necessary. Unless you can get high enough discipline to exceed your AC it's worthless anyways. Unless you're prepared to invest all your equipment and at least 1-2 feats, you're unlikely to get anywhere close.

Sometimes you have to take a sacrifice for a build that fits the story you're going for; and sometimes that means being a bit less effective at combat. I've personally not taken discipline on characters in the last 6 years and only died to knockdown three times (and this before knockdown spam was nerfed too), across more than 25 PVP engagements.

And while Loremaster have a feat tax, it also gets you two ESF equivalents. A 2CL cost is better than a 3CL cost, you get to use wands better, scrolls of other spellcasting schools (wizard with word of faith!), have access to UMD (barkskin wands, the books, imp invis wands on divine spellcasters), and it gives you 1 AC or 1AB or 30HP. Also not as if SF lore is bad, as along with loremaster that's a +15 lore, which gets you to 51 lore with just max ranks which is enough for Word of Faith that can beat natural spell resistance effectively.

That's much better than just a single feat, minus the lack of discipline and/or tumble.

Wizards it is probably least useful on since they are int based, tend to have high lore, and so many bonus feats that they don't really need more ESFs. But a favoured soul with timestop and mords as well as two bonus ESFs to be able to scry/yoink and 1AB/AC? That's much better than 3 ranger, especially since you can get to 30CL unlike with ranger with just AD Abj.
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

MRFTW
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 5:37 am

Re: Loremaster and Spellcasters

Post by MRFTW » Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:22 pm

I do think LM gets a -lot- already for what they give. If they were to be changed in some way, I could see this being a cookie given in return, though.

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