HP are not meat points still, right?

[UilliamNebel]

So, just to check,

On Arelith, the concept of HP being 'meat points', i.e., some number of apparent wounds, of greater severity as they are lost, is not necessarily true, correct? Say if you were doing subdual damage, unarmed, to subdue and restrain a target with a lasso, you could not as another player say that state of 'near death' on the NPC attacked was the same as if a character had been using dual knives to chop away, and to assume such would be an error?

[Amateur Hour]

I'm not sure what you mean here?

Say Percy Paladin subdues Ghan the Gnoll and Ghan is Near Death. If Percy Paladin were wielding a sword, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that Ghan has some lacerations (I'd say it's unreasonable to assume Ghan DOESN'T), because whatever damage was done was done with a bladed weapon and Ghan is in such bad shape he's "Near Death". I'd say it's also within the realm of permissibility for Ghan's player to roleplay that Ghan has lost fingers, particularly if he were disarmed in the fight. Legs? Not so much (at least, not without some Tells on the matter to Percy's player) because Ghan still has the ability to move with the lasso in a running action.

If Percy Paladin were wielding a mace instead, I'd assume Ghan had severe bruises, maybe some cracked ribs or other bones. Still nothing impeding the very real fact Ghan can walk.

If Percy somehow subdued Vicky the Vampire with healing spells, that's trickier, because magic damage doesn't have a real-world analog. I'd probably let Vicky decide how "Near Death" looks (if anyone wants suggestions, I'd think it'd look like horrible, horrible bruises).

[The GrumpyCat]

I think I'm safe in saying that you're more or less correct yes. I mean, IRL being unconcious is pretty dangerous. And somone beaten to subdual probaby has taken quite the drubbing.

If someone is subdued, then I'd probably assume that maybe at least some of the blows were done in a none lethal fashion (e.g. maybe the attacker used the pommel of the knives to smash into the victims forehead, or maybe they were more vicious and cut the poor victims hamstrings) - honestly I'd probably give grace and read the room there, respecting the rp the victim or attacker or both wanted to go with, so long as it isn't too outlandish.

[UilliamNebel]

I think I'm safe in saying that you're more or less correct yes. I mean, IRL being unconcious is pretty dangerous. And somone beaten to subdual probaby has taken quite the drubbing.

If someone is subdued, then I'd probably assume that maybe at least some of the blows were done in a none lethal fashion (e.g. maybe the attacker used the pommel of the knives to smash into the victims forehead, or maybe they were more vicious and cut the poor victims hamstrings) - honestly I'd probably give grace and read the room there, respecting the rp the victim or attacker or both wanted to go with, so long as it isn't too outlandish.

Yeah, was an example of good ol' 'Batman' vigilante power fantasy in a way. A character, unarmed, beating up a gang of NPCs with weapons, and getting a lasso on one to bound them up to take to the jailer.

So would assume, it be obvious to any that no bladed, or other weapons were used, and since was done in subdual, the NPC obviously look roughed up, but no more than needed to subdue them, for the lasso, to take to the jailer. And since done unwarded, without insane strength or such, the wounds on the NPC would look largely superficial if examined. Just trying to verify I made a reasonable assumption here that if I were asked IC, it be true.

[Amateur Hour]

I think this would depend on the injury status as examined is. "Largely superficial" seems like it would describe being Barely Injured or maybe even simply Injured, but "largely superficial" roughing up doesn't take someone Near Death. Near Death means a person is almost dead; there's serious injuries involved there. There's a reason the "-giveup" command exists as it does; it represents someone being a hair more fragile than the person they fought anticipated and slipping past that Near Death threshold.

This being said, people shouldn't assume a particular manifestation of injuries on anyone wandering around with less than full HP. Screaming at someone for chopping off the hands of, say, a Barely Injured Border Reaver they just hauled in for a bounty is absurd.

[UilliamNebel]

Near Death means a person is almost dead; there's serious injuries involved there.

Thats why I brought it up as a question. Given that I viewed the status markers over characters, for HP loss, as a simplification of display for non pen and paper players. But that on Arelith, we'd largely rotate toward the PnP perspective, that subdual damage isn't so much 'wound' damage as beating down folks endurance, stamina, nerve, etc. So that when a monk humbles a cocky student to 'near death' status, while doing it subdual, we can say they were not full on Cobra Kai 'Mercy is for the weak' but a humbling Mr Miyagi, if that makes sense.

Edit: Also, given lasso mechanics as they are, you can't in Arelith restrain an NPC, till they are at 'Near Death' state. So it is an odd mechanics versus RP intention sort of space.

[Amateur Hour]

Also, given lasso mechanics as they are, you can't in Arelith restrain an NPC, till they are at 'Near Death' state. So it is an odd mechanics versus RP intention sort of space.

This, I think, can be explained from the perspective of the NPC: they refuse to capitulate until that point. They are the Black Knight who "'tis but a scratch"ed you until you beat them within an inch of their life. It's their fault for not coming quietly when they had the chance, not yours for not being nicer to them.

I would hope someone who is screaming about people beating up the border reavers (just continuing to use this as an example) who treat their victims Vlad the Impaler style would be responded to IC by people surrounding that we're taking about an exceedingly dangerous, vicious criminal. Most of the criminal hideout "dungeons" are filled with fixtures and set pieces that make it EXCEEDINGLY clear how evil and dangerous the people inside them are.

[chris a gogo]

IIRC.
All wounds are minor until the last one that takes you into negative numbers.
So if you do 500 damage to someone in a round and they arn't dead it is still only a minor wound ie shallow cuts and scrapes maybe some big bruises that do not require any medical aid to heal, it's just the 500+ hp character is good at staying alive and "rolling" with the punches.
Least ways thats in D&D.

[Hazard]

Good question. I kinda just go with whatever is happening at the moment. Generally leave it up to the player who is damaged and the means in which they were damaged to decide.

[Kuma]

In the 1920s, the Naval War College created the modern concept of HP - a stat called 'Life' which was determined by how many equivalent penetrative 14-inch shell hits a vessel could take.

So that's what a hit point is, how many 14-inch shells it would take to kill you.

Every living creature is one hit point. The end.

[Baseili]

Subduing someone isn't as simple as a few punches, you are literally beating someone until they can no longer physically fight back that involves broken bones, cut muscles and even severing tendons depending on the weapon used. Its pretty brutal.

As for HP status well if you've been beaten down that badly and can no longer raise your arms to fight back I'd say being at "near death" is accurate, you are after all only one strike away from being killed.

[UilliamNebel]

Subduing someone isn't as simple as a few punches, you are literally beating someone until they can no longer physically fight back that involves broken bones, cut muscles and even severing tendons depending on the weapon used. Its pretty brutal.

As for HP status well if you've been beaten down that badly and can no longer raise your arms to fight back I'd say being at "near death" is accurate, you are after all only one strike away from being killed.

Honestly, never in all my time doing law enforcement work, has subduing a suspect involved all that. Or taking it to a point of physical incapacity. This seems a fairly extreme depiction.

As for the points on HP, that was the seeking clarification part as far as D&D 3e. It also be rather inconsistent from the stated subdual combat explanation for PvP on the wiki.

"Subdual is a tool that allows non-lethal combat. A character that activates this mode attempts actively to end the fight destabilizing and knocking down his opponent,"

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Subdual

So, why would it go from one type of combat, non lethal grapples and knockdowns, to another of physical mauling because it went from PvP to PvE, it is a rather large divergence.

[Eira]

Keep in mind that you could, in a fight, knock someone down, move back, and they could potentially choose not to get up again or hit you back.

That doesn't often happen on Arelith. People do fight to the bitter end, to near death, to the point where the only way to stop them from taking that big sword and ramming it through your insides is by ensuring they cannot lift that sword.

Subdual is beating someone to the brink so that that they can't physically fight back, because in most instances, that is the only way to stop them.

People have gotten a talking to for treating subdual as "heehee we're just having fun and getting up again afterwards, I'll be fine in 5 minutes". It's not. You are putting someone out of commission for a while.

Could we add debuffs the lower your health bar gets to represent realistic effects of combat? I mean, I guess it's possible, but that would only mean pvp returns to the days of shotgun weaponmasters, striking as quickly as possible to get your opponent to the point of mechanical debuffs.

As has been stated in certain other situations and context, there are certain mechanics that are not implemented because we do not want to handhold people in their roleplay or force them down certain paths because that is essentially treating players like we don't trust them or can't make decisions for themselves. There are people who do roleplay being barely injured, badly wounded, near death, etc, because they want to, not because mechanics are forcing them some way.

Yeah, I get real life has ways to do a nonlethal grapple and knockdown. We in fact do have a knockdown mechanic, as well as several other ways through area effects, spells, etc, to simulate that. But in most situations, the people that you are trying to subdue are actively fighting back.

Can we add nonlethal subdual that doesn't require them to be near death? Maybe! We do have the suggestion forum open for a reason. And if that could be implemented in a way that can't be abused or break balance, that would be great.

But if someone is running around at 1 hp and they could die literally by getting poked while trying to pick a sweetberry, I think saying it's reasonable for someone to say "I'm just pretty bruised, I'll be fine in time" is not treating death with respect.

tl;dr - I agree that there can be some leeway on how exactly the wounds are given and portrayed, but someone should at least vaguely represent the status of the wounds they are described to be having. If someone wants to not die, they could also stop fighting, especially when fighting someone who would, presumably, state their intent that they do not want to kill them. There can be more to pvp than clicking until someone doesn't get up again, but if both sides choose to click until they can't click any more, then why should the brutality of it be toned down?

even more tl;dr - "Hah! You're not even a warrior, that was nothing!" says the four digit hp dwarf at 3 hp after finally getting the last blow on his enemy who spent a half hour whittling down his hp. "I'm hardly even bruised!"

[chris a gogo]

To answer the title question.
Hit points have never been meat points.
They are more akin to stamina the ability to keep fighting when others would of been defeated.

This said if someone wants to role play they has lost a leg because someone beat them in a fight but stopped short of killing them it's there choice, doesn't mean that is what the mechanics are just what they want, so you can go along with it or not as you decide.

To be honest my favorite emote for subduing someone has always been " kicks them in the fork" when you get the last hit because that's subdual!