Question on PVP Dialog

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Hrothgar Bloodaxe
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Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:27 pm

Hey all!

I had a question about PVP dialog, w/ regard to the need to express "hostile intent."

If someone comes up to you, making demands with clearly implied threats, are you, as the "defender," required to explicitly state you're going to fight back? Here's a hypothetical situation:

Necromancer: (Walking around with undead in a dungeon)

Paladin: Halt right there, dismiss your undead at once!

Necromancer: Ah, just one moment... (Necromancer turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)


To me, the interaction above is just fine. A necromancer, minding their own business, was approached by someone giving an adversarial command, with a clear implication that failing to follow said command would result in being attacked/forced to comply. So the necromancer doesn't need to expressly declare, "Die, Paladin," because the hostile nature of the interaction is already established, when the Paladin initiated the dialog with a command/threat. Basically, both parties are already aware of the potential for hostility, so no further clarification is needed.

I've always been of the opinion that if someone comes up to you with "fighting words," or is making demands that an average person would assume are going to be backed with force, the "defender's" reply does not need to specifically state you are going to hurt the aggressor or fight back, before doing so. Basically, while the person initiating the hostile interaction has to announce their hostile intent, you don't need to express your intent to defend yourself by force; this is just simply your right to do so, after someone has confronted you in a hostile manner/with a direct command to take an action you don't wish to take.

Otherwise, this really gives a pretty overwhelming advantage to the person initiating the combat, in terms of them initiating combat on their own terms, all the while being able to seize the initiative while you're explaining that you're about to fight them. I.e. the burden of "hostile explanation" should be on the person initiating the PVP interaction, not the recipient of a threat or command.

But, I've never seen this situation clearly adjudicated; I'd love some clarity on what is required in a response if someone else initiates an encounter with a reasonably clear intent to do you harm.

Of course, optional horse death RP is a possibility.

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:25 pm

Buffing is a hostile action, so at the point of the necromancer casting spells you could attack them.

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by DM Poppy » Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:25 pm

Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:27 pm

Hey all!

I had a question about PVP dialog, w/ regard to the need to express "hostile intent."

If someone comes up to you, making demands with clearly implied threats, are you, as the "defender," required to explicitly state you're going to fight back? Here's a hypothetical situation:

Necromancer: (Walking around with undead in a dungeon)

Paladin: Halt right there, dismiss your undead at once!

Necromancer: Ah, just one moment... (Necromancer turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)


To me, the interaction above is just fine. A necromancer, minding their own business, was approached by someone giving an adversarial command, with a clear implication that failing to follow said command would result in being attacked/forced to comply. So the necromancer doesn't need to expressly declare, "Die, Paladin," because the hostile nature of the interaction is already established, when the Paladin initiated the dialog with a command/threat. Basically, both parties are already aware of the potential for hostility, so no further clarification is needed.

I've always been of the opinion that if someone comes up to you with "fighting words," or is making demands that an average person would assume are going to be backed with force, the "defender's" reply does not need to specifically state you are going to hurt the aggressor or fight back, before doing so. Basically, while the person initiating the hostile interaction has to announce their hostile intent, you don't need to express your intent to defend yourself by force; this is just simply your right to do so, after someone has confronted you in a hostile manner/with a direct command to take an action you don't wish to take.

Otherwise, this really gives a pretty overwhelming advantage to the person initiating the combat, in terms of them initiating combat on their own terms, all the while being able to seize the initiative while you're explaining that you're about to fight them. I.e. the burden of "hostile explanation" should be on the person initiating the PVP interaction, not the recipient of a threat or command.

But, I've never seen this situation clearly adjudicated; I'd love some clarity on what is required in a response if someone else initiates an encounter with a reasonably clear intent to do you harm.

You example is what I would consider One Lining and it is frankly a really terrible way to conduct PvP on Arelith.

One key fact that you should always consider above anything else, is that we are an RP Server and the goal in conflict should be to create story. PvP is a tool, but it's not something that you should aim to rush into. The RP before you PvP and the possibility of what results after the PvP in the form of capture etc etc is what is important in the scenario.

In your example above here is how I would deem it to fulfil the PvP Rules in full

Necromancer: (Walking around with undead in a dungeon)

Paladin: Halt right there, dismiss your undead at once!

Necromancer: Who the hell are you?

Paladin: That matters not, Animator! I have issued you a command. Rid yourself of those blasted Undead!

Necromancer: I will do no such thing, fool. You are not a man who commands me!

Paladin: By the light of Torm, I shall see the Undead blasted from these realms and let it be warned Animator. If you fail to do as I insist, you shall share the same hole as them!

Necromancer: So be it, I'll have you corpse serve me next. (Necromancer turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)

Paladin: (Turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)

But. Even the above is, to me. Rather dull. In this example the PvP is the end goal and the killing is going to mark the end of something.

Instead, the Paladin could have gone down the avenue of..

"If you fail to do as I insist, then you will be brought to the Radiant Heart to be judged for the vile actions. Be it by your own feet or dragged by your hair, you will face the Triad's judgement"

The Necromancer could have gone down the lines of..

"I'll beat you until the light begins to fade from your eyes. I won't let you die though, you goodly piece of shit. I'll hurt you, I will break you. You will beg to be taken by the touch of death and then.. I will bring you back to serve me regardless."

In both of the above, you are establishing your hostility and your readiness to fight. But above that that you are displaying that you are open to more RP after the fight has ended. Win or Lose.

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:32 pm

DM Poppy wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:27 pm

Hey all!

I had a question about PVP dialog, w/ regard to the need to express "hostile intent."

If someone comes up to you, making demands with clearly implied threats, are you, as the "defender," required to explicitly state you're going to fight back? Here's a hypothetical situation:

Necromancer: (Walking around with undead in a dungeon)

Paladin: Halt right there, dismiss your undead at once!

Necromancer: Ah, just one moment... (Necromancer turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)


To me, the interaction above is just fine. A necromancer, minding their own business, was approached by someone giving an adversarial command, with a clear implication that failing to follow said command would result in being attacked/forced to comply. So the necromancer doesn't need to expressly declare, "Die, Paladin," because the hostile nature of the interaction is already established, when the Paladin initiated the dialog with a command/threat. Basically, both parties are already aware of the potential for hostility, so no further clarification is needed.

I've always been of the opinion that if someone comes up to you with "fighting words," or is making demands that an average person would assume are going to be backed with force, the "defender's" reply does not need to specifically state you are going to hurt the aggressor or fight back, before doing so. Basically, while the person initiating the hostile interaction has to announce their hostile intent, you don't need to express your intent to defend yourself by force; this is just simply your right to do so, after someone has confronted you in a hostile manner/with a direct command to take an action you don't wish to take.

Otherwise, this really gives a pretty overwhelming advantage to the person initiating the combat, in terms of them initiating combat on their own terms, all the while being able to seize the initiative while you're explaining that you're about to fight them. I.e. the burden of "hostile explanation" should be on the person initiating the PVP interaction, not the recipient of a threat or command.

But, I've never seen this situation clearly adjudicated; I'd love some clarity on what is required in a response if someone else initiates an encounter with a reasonably clear intent to do you harm.

You example is what I would consider One Lining and it is frankly a really terrible way to conduct PvP on Arelith.

One thing to remember is that we are an RP Server and the goal to conflict should be to create story. PvP is a tool, but it's not something that you should aim to rush into. The RP before you PvP and the possibility of what results after the PvP in the form of capture etc etc is what is important in the scenario.

In your example above here is how I would deem it to fulfil the PvP Rules.

Necromancer: (Walking around with undead in a dungeon)

Paladin: Halt right there, dismiss your undead at once!

Necromancer: Who the hell are you?

Paladin: That matters not, Animator! I have issued you a command. Rid yourself of those blasted Undead!

Necromancer: I will do no such thing, fool. You are not a man who commands me!

Paladin: By the light of Torm, I shall see the Undead blasted from these realms and let it be warned Animator. If you fail to do as I insist, you shall share the same hole as them!

Necromancer: So be it, I'll have you corpse serve me next. (Necromancer turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)

Paladin: (Turns on "hostile," then begins casting spells, combat starts)

The original script made me sigh, roll my eyes, and move on with my day. I would do the exact same thing if I were the Paladin's player - sigh, take the loss, and accept that I'm not dealing with a player who is interested in collaborative roleplay and storytelling.

This modified interaction, however, left me with much, much more anticipation and even a reward in my brain for sticking with them until the end. I suddenly find myself asking questions about who these characters are, what their motivations and thought-processes are. Just like I would if I were reading an FR novel.

The problem, I feel, is that the first interaction - the one liner - is acceptable in the view of the rules. By allowing one liners, we are also encouraging them, at least for some people who aren't as interested in the story or the roleplay.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by DM Poppy » Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:35 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:32 pm

The original script made me sigh, roll my eyes, and move on with my day. I would do the exact same thing if I were the Paladin's player - sigh, take the loss, and accept that I'm not dealing with a player who is interested in collaborative roleplay and storytelling.

This modified interaction, however, left me with much, much more anticipation and even a reward in my brain for sticking with them until the end. I suddenly find myself asking questions about who these characters are, what their motivations and thought-processes are. Just like I would if I were reading an FR novel.

The problem, I feel, is that the first interaction - the one liner - is acceptable in the view of the rules. By allowing one liners, we are also encouraging them, at least for some people who aren't as interested in the story or the roleplay.

I did an edit as well. I wasn't happy with even the amended scenario as that is still not an ideal way to do it for me personally.

But as a note. One lining isn't encouraged in our rules. We ask for interactive RP before a fight, for hostility to be established in their writing.

One lining is going to get you warned about your poor performance to engage in RP around PvP

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:45 pm

DM Poppy wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:35 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:32 pm

The original script made me sigh, roll my eyes, and move on with my day. I would do the exact same thing if I were the Paladin's player - sigh, take the loss, and accept that I'm not dealing with a player who is interested in collaborative roleplay and storytelling.

This modified interaction, however, left me with much, much more anticipation and even a reward in my brain for sticking with them until the end. I suddenly find myself asking questions about who these characters are, what their motivations and thought-processes are. Just like I would if I were reading an FR novel.

The problem, I feel, is that the first interaction - the one liner - is acceptable in the view of the rules. By allowing one liners, we are also encouraging them, at least for some people who aren't as interested in the story or the roleplay.

I did an edit as well. I wasn't happy with even the amended scenario as that is still not an ideal way to do it for me personally.

But as a note. One lining isn't encouraged in our rules. We ask for interactive RP before a fight, for hostility to be established in their writing.

One lining is going to get you warned about your poor performance to engage in RP around PvP

That's so good to know, and actually a relief. I've never been taken aside by a DM with regards to PvP, so I'm admittedly in the dark regarding such warnings. Thank you for clarification! 😊


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Morgy » Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:19 am

I also note that some people who take longer to type due to less ability to or writing longer replies, are also often accused on not cooperating and sometimes this seems to be used as a reason to begin an attack sooner.

I know this is against the rules to be so impatient with the intent to rush into PvP, but I hope just one person can read this and remember that when you catch someone by surprise with hostile RP, it may take them a little longer to compose their response. Don’t use that time to ward/surround them and set up for you best PvP positioning, or why should they bother giving you a decent response at their own cost. If you’re initiating the confrontation, take a pause in your movement and don’t rush them for a reply.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Khorvale » Thu Apr 27, 2023 6:28 am

When I engage in conflict RP I usually try and hostile them first (sometimes if I'm in an "obvious" PvP setting like being on the surface with my Orog I'll hostile the entire area just so people are aware there's a risk), do dialogue where I make it clear I will try to kill them (subdual actually) if they don't accede to my demands (which is usually something like Leave, Don't Talk to Me or Answer or Die) and let them respond, then do something passively hostile like a buff or summon as a sort of prompt to them. There's always room to nope out during that, and if someone engages and then flees I'll usually just stop to gloat IC.

Sometimes it provides a good frame where the other person picks up on the idea and responds at the same pace and we can do some actual RP, sometimes the other person goes all crazy with full buff and instant attack (and sometimes others join because a lot of people are just itching to join a fight, Andunor things maybe :) ) and more often than not, I get my Snuggybear kicked because I'm not even PvP specced :D
Generally I find though that going giving prior warning and trying to pace the initial conversation to leave some room for blustering and emoting is important, and in Andunor at least that's not always easy to come by because people are itchy to be evil badasses when they finally get the chance. Most are nice enough to do Subdual, though :)
Regardless of that anecdote, I think a tendency to 'alpha strike' a hostile encounter is detriment to PvP RP, and if people act a bit less trigger happy it's actually really fun, and if you give them room, a lot of players will engage.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:15 am

"then do something passively hostile like a buff or summon as a sort of prompt to them"
Tbh, this kind of action together with you already "hostile" them, is the initiation of PVP.
THe moment you buff or worse, summons, there's no more going back.
Perhaps you will need to re-consider what is passive hostile vs actual hostile.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Wethrinea » Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:42 am

My main gripe with PvP has always been that the real-time combat mechanics of NwN do not go well with the turn-based exchange of written dialogue. Unless both parties are in agreement (implicit or explicit) to let the scene play out and give everyone enough time to type, it becomes a competition of initiative to gain the upper hand in the mechanical sense. Which usually translates into attacking the moment the other drinks a potion, activates a wand, casts a spell or similar.

I dislike this very much because it means (again unless there is an understanding) that spells, items and abilities become useless as RP tools to escalate (or de-escalate) a tense standoff.

With NwN being what it is there are no mechanical solutions to this. The only solution would be to develop a culture where the real-time combat part of PvP is seen as a tool for expanding the scene, not as the outcome of it. Which is also fiendishly difficult, because it only takes a few instances where someone feels cheated or their good-will abused to tear it down again.

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:10 am

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful feedback.

I suppose I wanted to clarify something with regard to my question, I think people are interpreting this differently in a way I had intended - I framed the question this way, because it has now been the case that, in a substantial number of cases, any sort of reply other than "(unsummons undead)" has been met with being attacked.

The following is an actual encounter I had (as a necromancer), within the last week:

Paladin: "Halt, dismiss your undead."
Me: "I'd rather not, if that's okay."
Paladin: "Very well then." (Hostile, Dispells, Kills me)

While this is the most recent occurrence, this same situation has happened to me pretty often; so often, that I didn't realize this was abnormal. I can't actually remember a time where any response I've provided has been met with anything other than basically an immediate attack. And these aren't even in like, cities or stuff like that - this is in the middle of Baator, or the Underdark.

Is this something I should be reporting, when people do this? I hadn't reported anything because I figured technically they did say something, even if it was 5 words or so.

The reason I was asking my initial question was because, quite frankly, I'm tired of having someone say"Halt," me attempting to have a larger conversation, and then just getting killed for my trouble. I haven't actually attacked anyone back...I just keep getting murdered after about 7 words of RP, and would like to not have that happen. I realize that getting killed is part of the game, but if this is how people are playing it - and many people would seem to be doing so - I'm curious how best to respond.

So, the spirit of my question is less about, "Can I counter-ambush someone," and more about, "How do I respond to the reasonably large population of people that say 'Halt,' as the extent of their pre-combat dialog, in a way that is both within the rules, but doesn't end up with me getting killed while I try to hold a conversation?"

Hopefully this clarifies the spirit behind my question. I'm not actually looking to attack people, I'm wondering how I can best defend myself, in this type of situation. There is definitely a group of people that seem to use the presence of undead as a way to "fish" for PVP with little-to-no RP or interaction around it; understanding how to deal with this, aside from just getting killed, would be helpful.

*Edit: To clarify, none of my responses to "Halt!" have ever been hostile, even remotely. At most, they will express a desire that I'd rather not have to unsummon, and occasionally, my response will be along the lines of "Hmmm, pardon me?" - And the response has been to be attacked, sometimes without even further dialog from the attacker.

Of course, optional horse death RP is a possibility.

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Khorvale » Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:24 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:15 am

"then do something passively hostile like a buff or summon as a sort of prompt to them"
Tbh, this kind of action together with you already "hostile" them, is the initiation of PVP.
THe moment you buff or worse, summons, there's no more going back.
Perhaps you will need to re-consider what is passive hostile vs actual hostile.

I don't see whats so point of no return about doing a summon or a buff unless the opposing party doesn't understand the concept of a paced escalation of aggression and feel like they need to go immediately nuclear. In which case I don't really think I'm the problem in that particular scenario 8-)

Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:10 am

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful feedback.

I suppose I wanted to clarify something with regard to my question, I think people are interpreting this differently in a way I had intended - I framed the question this way, because it has now been the case that, in a substantial number of cases, any sort of reply other than "(unsummons undead)" has been met with being attacked.

The following is an actual encounter I had (as a necromancer), within the last week:

Paladin: "Halt, dismiss your undead."
Me: "I'd rather not, if that's okay."
Paladin: "Very well then." (Hostile, Dispells, Kills me)

While this is the most recent occurrence, this same situation has happened to me pretty often; so often, that I didn't realize this was abnormal. I can't actually remember a time where any response I've provided has been met with anything other than basically an immediate attack. And these aren't even in like, cities or stuff like that - this is in the middle of Baator, or the Underdark.

Is this something I should be reporting, when people do this? I hadn't reported anything because I figured technically they did say something, even if it was 5 words or so.

The reason I was asking my initial question was because, quite frankly, I'm tired of having someone say"Halt," me attempting to have a larger conversation, and then just getting killed for my trouble. I haven't actually attacked anyone back...I just keep getting murdered after about 7 words of RP, and would like to not have that happen. I realize that getting killed is part of the game, but if this is how people are playing it - and many people would seem to be doing so - I'm curious how best to respond.

So, the spirit of my question is less about, "Can I counter-ambush someone," and more about, "How do I respond to the reasonably large population of people that say 'Halt,' as the extent of their pre-combat dialog, in a way that is both within the rules, but doesn't end up with me getting killed while I try to hold a conversation?"

Hopefully this clarifies the spirit behind my question. I'm not actually looking to attack people, I'm wondering how I can best defend myself, in this type of situation. There is definitely a group of people that seem to use the presence of undead as a way to "fish" for PVP with little-to-no RP or interaction around it; understanding how to deal with this, aside from just getting killed, would be helpful.

*Edit: To clarify, none of my responses to "Halt!" have ever been hostile, even remotely. At most, they will express a desire that I'd rather not have to unsummon, and occasionally, my response will be along the lines of "Hmmm, pardon me?" - And the response has been to be attacked, sometimes without even further dialog from the attacker.

Sorry man, this will happen a lot, some people are super itching for that sweet, murdery validation of their PvP build or particular brand of power fantasy RP


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by magistrasa » Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:00 am

Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:10 am

Is this something I should be reporting, when people do this?

The scenario you described doesn't technically break the PvP rules, as far as I understand it. But letting people get away with terrible behavior on technicalities is how we normalize bad roleplay quality on the server. The antagonist in that scene may not have broken a rule, but they performed their obligations to you as a fellow storyteller very, very poorly.

I think it's important to remember that we players aren't necessarily the ones deciding if other people are adhering to the rules are not. It's important to know for your own sake, but reports aren't just something you do after you've already decided someone broke a rule. If something about a scene feels wrong or unsportsmanlike, the best thing you can do is report the behavior and leave it to the DMs to review and pass their own ruling on. In your situation, that player may have just barely operated within the margins of the rules - but it could still be another notch in an ultimately harmful pattern of behavior that the DMs already want to monitor. Corrective actions taken aren't always outright punishments, but RPR reviews and counseling to encourage healthier habits that benefit the server. In that way, you should consider reporting not as a vindictive act of personal pettiness, but as an expression of concern over that player's unhealthy approach to roleplay and the effect it has on other people.

Sucking at collaborative roleplay and being a crappy one-liner isn't always a punishable offense, but it is a reportable offense. That's why the "Be Nice" rule exists. So, generally speaking, if you have to ask yourself, "Should I report this?" the answer should pretty much always be, "Yes."

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:06 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:00 am
Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:10 am

Is this something I should be reporting, when people do this?

Sucking at collaborative roleplay and being a crappy one-liner isn't always a punishable offense, but it is a reportable offense. That's why the "Be Nice" rule exists. So, generally speaking, if you have to ask yourself, "Should I report this?" the answer should pretty much always be, "Yes."

Thanks for this, I hadn't really thought about it this way, TBH. I always felt that filing reports for things that I knew didn't expressly break a rule would just "clog up the pipes" for people who are reporting more serious issues. But the idea that this helps people understand patterns of bad behavior is one I hadn't fully considered. I'll keep this in mind - I know of at least a couple people who I've dealt with personally, and also heard from many others, who do this routinely, as in, at least several times a week. While they seem to do the bare minimum to avoid flagrantly breaking rules, it's very apparent they're just looking for PVP, and have no interest in trying to develop some sort of immersive interaction, character relationship, or storyline; they just want to kill you for the sake of it.

Of course, optional horse death RP is a possibility.

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Edens_Fall » Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:18 pm

Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:10 am

The following is an actual encounter I had (as a necromancer), within the last week:

Paladin: "Halt, dismiss your undead."
Me: "I'd rather not, if that's okay."
Paladin: "Very well then." (Hostile, Dispells, Kills me)

This will be 90% of your interactions as an "evil" PC with any "good" PC. It will also get even better when your name is spread to each settlement and you find your PC exiled from most the surface while having done very little past grinding writs with your summons out.

That's just the way it is sadly and the reason most people end up in the UD and remain there to RP.

As to a counter . . . My advice is to just expect it. Soon as they say halt and make a demand prepare to fight or flee. You can of course take the chance to RP, but I'd always have that Timestop or GS on hotbar for when it turns south.

Just remember it's a game. Nothing is worth getting stressed over IRL. If the other party is more concerned with kills and body counts, more power to them. Just means they missed out on a chance for what could have been a memorable RP moment.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:29 am


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:11 am

To be fair playing a necromancer or warlock means your character is depraved scum, so anyone meeting them that isn't of the same kind of mindset should want to kill them.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't give them some decent role play before doing it.
I was going to give an example that happened to my necromancer recently but it was a rule break no role play at all before it and we agreed to retcon it.

So I'll give one I did to a black guard.

Druid fully warded with summons Vs Blackguard(I'm presuming blackguard due to corrupt weapon effect on weapon) with demon/devil.

Druid approaches man with demon killing spawns on the road in the forest.

Druid. "Hey you can't bring that here best send it away."

BG. heals up then turns to face druid " You talking to me?"

Druid. " Yeah you can't bring the demon here get rid of it".

BG. "I go where I like" Or words to that effect.

Druid. "sighs" sets hostile "Last chance"

BG. "Don't threaten me".

Druid Clicks on BG with companion tool watches it die in two rounds.

That is the kind of encounter that has no real follow up and I could perhaps of handled it better, but then again sometimes there is no leeway.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by DM Poppy » Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:07 am

chris a gogo wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:11 am

To be fair playing a necromancer or warlock means your character is depraved scum, so anyone meeting them that isn't of the same kind of mindset should want to kill them.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't give them some decent role play before doing it.
I was going to give an example that happened to my necromancer recently but it was a rule break no role play at all before it and we agreed to retcon it.

So I'll give one I did to a black guard.

Druid fully warded with summons Vs Blackguard(I'm presuming blackguard due to corrupt weapon effect on weapon) with demon/devil.

Druid approaches man with demon killing spawns on the road in the forest.

Druid. "Hey you can't bring that here best send it away."

BG. heals up then turns to face druid " You talking to me?"

Druid. " Yeah you can't bring the demon here get rid of it".

BG. "I go where I like" Or words to that effect.

Druid. "sighs" sets hostile "Last chance"

BG. "Don't threaten me".

Druid Clicks on BG with companion tool watches it die in two rounds.

That is the kind of encounter that has no real follow up and I could perhaps of handled it better, but then again sometimes there is no leeway.

Fundamentally. This is completely and utterly the wrong approach to RP on Arelith.

Every single Character on Arelith is played by a person. It is the Player whom is expected the manage their character to ensure they follow our rules and they conduct themselves appropriately.

This goes hand in hand with RP. Just because it is in your Characters nature to dislike another Character doesn't mean your go to is "Hey you! Die!" and it is this type of attitude towards how your CHARACTER should interact with the world versus how YOU should manage your Character to interact with the world that causes animosity in an RP Setting.

We are here to tell a story and to share it. The bigger the audience you share it to, the more rewarding it is. Conflict is great to develop a story and PvP is absolutely a tool that can be utilised to direct the course of that development with Winner vs Looser or with Master vs Apprentice or whatever else. But PvP itself doesn't tell a story. Kill Bashing doesn't tell a story. What comes before and after a fight is what develops a story.

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Eira » Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:34 am

The onus should be on both sides to offer something out of the story.

Responding to "Send away your Evil thing" with a hard stop "I refuse" is also a choice a player makes for their character to make.

If someone isn't willing to bend a little, they shouldn't expect everyone to bend for them. Sure, hard lines on both sides doesn't leave much room, but we need to keep in mind that those are still choices people make.

It is okay to be in the ground between lengthy monologues about philosophy and "leave or die!" attacks.

When people are doing things that they Know would make others want to fight or kill them, they should have an idea of something to say as well to convince their enemies that it shouldn't go immediately to fight. Otherwise, they expect the person who has very good reason to fight them... to come up with the reason not to immediately fight them.

For example, goblin players should think before running around in the goblin woods. After all, why would someone think twice about murdering yet another goblin after murdering goblins?

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Amateur Hour » Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:04 pm

Eira wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:34 am

...

When people are doing things that they Know would make others want to fight or kill them, they should have an idea of something to say as well to convince their enemies that it shouldn't go immediately to fight. Otherwise, they expect the person who has very good reason to fight them... to come up with the reason not to immediately fight them.

...

This is important here.

Keep in mind, when Perry the Paladin meets Alvin the Animator, Perry is forced by his class to take issue with undead being traipsed about; he is almost certainly going to have to take the first move here. "Dispense of these foul things, or I will force you!" is Perry already offering a roleplay option - unsummon your undead, and then we can talk. If Alvin stonewalls, Perry doesn't have any other option but to smack Alvin. Note that by "stonewalling" I mean repeatedly saying "no" or "I refuse" or some other kind of hard boundary. The following could be a possible path to take that may sound like a "no" on the surface but leads to other things:

Perry: Halt, vile animator!

Alvin: halts

Perry: Dismiss these foul creatures, or I shall have no mercy!

Alvin: Why should I trust you will have mercy if I do?

This could lead to something. Of course, Alvin could - and should! - report Perry if Perry just started attacking Alvin the second the undead are unsummoned.

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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by tessimon » Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:35 pm

I think it depends somewhat on RP consistency.

If Perry the Paladin ignores any necromancers for the first 29 levels and then suddenly becomes Judge Dredd at level 30 when they see a necromancer in a low-level dungeon with a tier 2 zombie then that seems a little questionable to me.

If a player can come up with an RP reason that their character won't step up when they're at a disadvantage or the likely result is 50/50 then they shouldn't act like it's out of their hands when it's clearly in their overwhelming favor. I'm not saying that this is the majority of interactions*, but I have witnessed a decent subset of this style of behavior.

*I've actually had some excellent conflict-driven interactions with paladins. Some led to PvP and others had an out given that I took, so this isn't me complaining about the class dynamics specifically. Rather a particular player mindset I've seen with a subset of players where RP is just there to justify their desired OOC behavior without any real consistency to it.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by chris a gogo » Mon May 01, 2023 12:13 am

Fundamentally. This is completely and utterly the wrong approach to RP on Arelith

I wasn't going to post again but this statement has been festering with me all day.

Because I think your wrong we are here to play characters in a forgotten realms setting, not write stories as the stories happen organically from the character role play, that means every characters has a base class and that base class has some expected role play along with it.

Roleplay rule
Roleplay rule is one of the 5 golden rules of Arelith servers. The following are few explanations and clarifications for it.

Roleplay is acting out the role of character that is represented by characters' sheet. On Arelith, it's not just a nice thing to do, it's what we do. Arelith is, first and foremost, a fantasy Role Play server, and so role play is what we expect of those who come to enjoy it.

You are expected to roleplay the class on your sheet. Paladin is expected to roleplay a Paladin, Druid is expected to roleplay a Druid and an Red Dragon Disciple is expected to roleplay a Red Dragon Disciple. However, characters may use other words to describe what they are. For example, a Fighter might refer to himself as a bounty hunter or a bodyguard for example and a Wizard may refer to themselves as an arcanist.

There is a lot of stuff I've edited out as it wasn't applicable to the discussion and was a wall of text.

But as you see the rule is Role Play your class and character so I respect the player I killed in my earlier example for doing so.
There was no follow up as it was a random encounter, I made a posting on the groves notice board about killing an Infernalist on the road and to keep an eye on that area.
But that was the end of it, never encountered each other again.

Same again when my warlock got attacked by two surface players in the UD because they wanted to loot a dungeon id already half cleared, that was a two line interaction and when I tried to escape they attacked.

Because this IS what happens most of the time now maybe it's all IC or there maybe the desire to get a win when you have an advantage I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.
But the idea that every encounter should be an epic saga...well clearly the majority of the players don't agree as it's not what happens most of the time.

Peace out.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 01, 2023 12:49 am

My whole gripe about this is that people don't go about posting on message boards every time they kill a writ boss, about killing said writ boss. When necromancers and undead roam the fields, no one seems to care until a there is a player behind the character, then it seems to become the good player character's sole life goal to smite away that necromancer/warlock and their undead/fiend, but only that one, while conveniently ignoring all other evils around them.

And when you mention to them that there are entire dungeons filled with necromancers and undead that need smited, they seem to gloss over that and otherwise they continue with their fixation of smiting only player characters.

That kind of inconsistentent RP screams not roleplaying your character, and yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable within our server's culture. And that's also why I believe it was mentioned earlier that this kind of PvP-fixated approach to RP isn't good or healthy for the server.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by Morgy » Mon May 01, 2023 2:50 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:49 am

My whole gripe about this is that people don't go about posting on message boards every time they kill a writ boss, about killing said writ boss. When necromancers and undead roam the fields, no one seems to care until a there is a player behind the character, then it seems to become the good player character's sole life goal to smite away that necromancer/warlock and their undead/fiend, but only that one, while conveniently ignoring all other evils around them.

And when you mention to them that there are entire dungeons filled with necromancers and undead that need smited, they seem to gloss over that and otherwise they continue with their fixation of smiting only player characters.

That kind of inconsistentent RP screams not roleplaying your character, and yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable within our server's culture. And that's also why I believe it was mentioned earlier that this kind of PvP-fixated approach to RP isn't good or healthy for the server.

It's not really inconsistent RP, I think, because when's the last time one of those spawned cultists or necromancers tried to initiate dialogue or responded to yours? :lol:

We engage with other players, because that's how we build a story between players. You just can't do that with dungeons and npcs that respawn every five minutes and don't -ever- develop a plot with you.

Players (and DM-controlled creatures) are responsive foes.. NPCs that run at you wordlessly on sight are not. If you want to talk about killing Morghuun the Black with every person that returns after their writ, I think you'll find that rather tiring quite quickly. We have to make that exception between NPCs and PCs.


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Re: Question on PVP Dialog

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 01, 2023 3:34 am

Morgy wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:50 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 12:49 am

My whole gripe about this is that people don't go about posting on message boards every time they kill a writ boss, about killing said writ boss. When necromancers and undead roam the fields, no one seems to care until a there is a player behind the character, then it seems to become the good player character's sole life goal to smite away that necromancer/warlock and their undead/fiend, but only that one, while conveniently ignoring all other evils around them.

And when you mention to them that there are entire dungeons filled with necromancers and undead that need smited, they seem to gloss over that and otherwise they continue with their fixation of smiting only player characters.

That kind of inconsistentent RP screams not roleplaying your character, and yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable within our server's culture. And that's also why I believe it was mentioned earlier that this kind of PvP-fixated approach to RP isn't good or healthy for the server.

It's not really inconsistent RP, I think, because when's the last time one of those spawned cultists or necromancers tried to initiate dialogue or responded to yours? :lol:

We engage with other players, because that's how we build a story between players. You just can't do that with dungeons and npcs that respawn every five minutes and don't -ever- develop a plot with you.

Players (and DM-controlled creatures) are responsive foes.. NPCs that run at you wordlessly on sight are not. If you want to talk about killing Morghuun the Black with every person that returns after their writ, I think you'll find that rather tiring quite quickly. We have to make that exception between NPCs and PCs.

And while we as players know what you've stated to be true, the characters do not and should not. It's discouraging to partake in RP where the PCs act like they know they're player characters in a game, rather than actually roleplaying as being a part of a living and breathing world-setting.

It then becomes a problem when this mentality is taken into PvP, especially when adopted by rather PvP-trigger happy players.


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