Rules of Pariah and Exile

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LurkingShadow
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Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:07 am

What is the established mindset of Pariah and Exile?

I have a char Pariah in one settlement over deeds commited to another.

Is this a reasonable punishment? The system renders you put into a bad position or even mechanically thrown out of somewhere by script. You might say it is all "Ic" but at the end of the day it is a move on ooc that makes it less appealing to play and harder to do something on a character. The scripted throw out I get it, but it is a script.


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Eira » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:39 am

You can be pariahed or exiled for any reason ingame that the current government wants. For instance, if you murdered someone in Cordor, and Guldorand heard about it, they could easily name you pariah as a warning to people. Or, if you wore the color green and someone in Bendir didn't like that because leprechauns, they are perfectly within their rights to be as corrupt as they please.

But Pariah just means the law doesn't protect you.

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Good Character » Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:05 am

Perceive it as a means of character development. If you are being punished for your action, what would your character do in response?

A few simple options:

  1. Decide to adhere by the laws and be a star citizen,
  2. Rebel and choose to continue on your path,
  3. Rebel and attempt to usurp the current ruler even if you do not intend to rule,
  4. Bribe your way out of your pariah status, or
  5. Bribe your way into getting the laws altered.

If you perceive this stuff any bit out-of-character when everything is done in-character and response to in-character actions, I recommend stepping back from the game and ask a few questions:

  1. Is roleplay meant for me?
  2. Does my current character not fit what I want to do and enjoy?
  3. Is it my current emotions getting the best of me?

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:52 am

Eira wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:39 am

You can be pariahed or exiled for any reason ingame that the current government wants. For instance, if you murdered someone in Cordor, and Guldorand heard about it, they could easily name you pariah as a warning to people. Or, if you wore the color green and someone in Bendir didn't like that because leprechauns, they are perfectly within their rights to be as corrupt as they please.

But Pariah just means the law doesn't protect you.

It does, but it also means people can rob and murder you with no cause and effect

Good Character wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:05 am

Perceive it as a means of character development. If you are being punished for your action, what would your character do in response?

A few simple options:

  1. Decide to adhere by the laws and be a star citizen,
  2. Rebel and choose to continue on your path,
  3. Rebel and attempt to usurp the current ruler even if you do not intend to rule,
  4. Bribe your way out of your pariah status, or
  5. Bribe your way into getting the laws altered.

If you perceive this stuff any bit out-of-character when everything is done in-character and response to in-character actions, I recommend stepping back from the game and ask a few questions:

  1. Is roleplay meant for me?
  2. Does my current character not fit what I want to do and enjoy?
  3. Is it my current emotions getting the best of me?

To be frank? I been roleplaying in NWN for 20 years soon, I have no issue what so ever. But I sense some bullying undertones and wonder what the common consensus of the Pariah and Exile system is. I am all for IC consequences but oocly we are all here to play and enjoy our time at the end of the day, correct?


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:56 pm

The purpose of pariah, ICly, is to say, "we don't want to have to spend resources protecting this person," which is often for people who stir up trouble that the government is tired of dealing with. The purpose of exile, ICly, is to say, "we want this person to stay far away from our community and will expend a great deal of resources to make that happen." These are not OOC tools, and settlements aren't required to be fair or Good (in the D&D cosmic sense).

We are OOCly all here to roleplay and play Dungeons and Dragons and hopefully enjoy our time here. But because we often have conflicts where only one side (from an IC perspective) can "win", we as players have to be able to find enjoyment in losing. If we're choosing to play a controversial figure, we have to be able to find enjoyment in losing a lot, or we should seriously consider retiring the character and playing something less controversial.

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:00 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:56 pm

The purpose of pariah, ICly, is to say, "we don't want to have to spend resources protecting this person," which is often for people who stir up trouble that the government is tired of dealing with. The purpose of exile, ICly, is to say, "we want this person to stay far away from our community and will expend a great deal of resources to make that happen." These are not OOC tools, and settlements aren't required to be fair or Good (in the D&D cosmic sense).

We are OOCly all here to roleplay and play Dungeons and Dragons and hopefully enjoy our time here. But because we often have conflicts where only one side (from an IC perspective) can "win", we as players have to be able to find enjoyment in losing. If we're choosing to play a controversial figure, we have to be able to find enjoyment in losing a lot, or we should seriously consider retiring the character and playing something less controversial.

I fully understand that. But there is plenty of controversial characters around. Conflict, losing and punishment is one thing. But I know people been gangsquade every 48 hours by elements on the server. This is frankly put, nothing but bullying and creates a poor atmosphere.

It is a FOIG here. But this is not the first time or the only current character that has issues with the two settlements in question. I know players feel left with no other option but to roll or flee because of elements on the server.


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Eira » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:11 pm

If someone is being harassed right on the dot of the timer, that should be reported to DMs, as it most certainly does not follow Be Nice. The entire purpose of the rule being vague is so DMs can look at the spirit of the rule, not the letter.

Look at it this way, in terms of exile. If the mechanic was removed, and exile could only be done by player guard actively hunting down and killing the PC who was exiled (there could be that one niche case of the person who meekly goes along with them, but then why would they go into the place they're exiled from anyway?), wouldn't that end up feeling even more like it's OOC-motivated, as so many people already think PVP is?

If a character thinks they are unjustly pariahed or exiled from a place, they are certainly welcome to dispute that and try to make their case; that is all through roleplay. Just because it is a mechanic, doesn't mean its use is OOCly motivated. Pretty much anything can be accused of being OOC.

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:16 pm

Eira wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:11 pm

If someone is being harassed right on the dot of the timer, that should be reported to DMs, as it most certainly does not follow Be Nice. The entire purpose of the rule being vague is so DMs can look at the spirit of the rule, not the letter.

Look at it this way, in terms of exile. If the mechanic was removed, and exile could only be done by player guard actively hunting down and killing the PC who was exiled (there could be that one niche case of the person who meekly goes along with them, but then why would they go into the place they're exiled from anyway?), wouldn't that end up feeling even more like it's OOC-motivated, as so many people already think PVP is?

If a character thinks they are unjustly pariahed or exiled from a place, they are certainly welcome to dispute that and try to make their case; that is all through roleplay. Just because it is a mechanic, doesn't mean its use is OOCly motivated. Pretty much anything can be accused of being OOC.

Yes, but it is hard to prove it without weeks if not months of screenshot.

Scripts and such mechanical systems will probably always feel like a ooc tool to me. Same as people complaining that the "guards" does nothing at 7 AM in the morning in Europe as people abuse the lack of guards in for example Guldorand to do bad deeds while the NPC just sits there.

Why does Arelith seemingly not have a "Do not ignore NPC guards" concept?


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Perplexia » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:24 pm

i was under the impression that the whole pariah/exile system was purely a mechanical thing, with many settlements opting for pariah in most cases so as to not completely stifle somebody's roleplay through the automatic ejection script

Bendir in particular differentiates between 'pariah' and 'unwelcome', with the latter effectively being an exile, but only enforced by other players, as opposed to the script

the last time i played a character who attained pariah status, it was handled in this way, which i accepted at the time as an OOC invitation to continue roleplaying with the settlement in question, and i suspect this is the case for many other characters who i would otherwise expect to be exiled instead

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Eira » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:25 pm

DMs have the ability to check logs for a thorough investigation. Admins can pull records of tells if someone is greentexting nasty things. Anything is possible to get to the bottom of. Sure, it takes work, but if you want to report the problem, the tools are there.

The mechanics exist so guards don't have to be online 24/7. There is a rule to not ignore NPC guards; when that is witnessed being ignored or broken, people should report it. The exile system is an example of representing NPC guard actions, by removing the person who is exiled; there are ways to counteract it as well.

If people do not report what they have a problem with, nothing will happen. Changing culture and upholding the rules is for both players and staff to work on, if they have a vision of improvement. Currently, there is a tendency to just let things slide, either thinking nothing will happen if they do report, thus ensuring nothing will ever happen, or that DMs will somehow see it all on their own. DMs are not omniscient.

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:28 pm

LurkingShadow wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:00 pm

...this is not the first time or the only current character that has issues with the two settlements in question. I know players feel left with no other option but to roll or flee because of elements on the server.

Not to speak to the particular incident, which I am certain I do not know everything about, but more generally, I have seen several cases in my two and a half years of what's basically the following:

  1. Player John makes Alvin Animator.

  2. Alvin starts in Cordor.

  3. Alvin is found out as an animator in Cordor, gets outed and pariahed.

  4. Alvin starts getting PvPed outside Cordor by Cordorians.

  5. Player John rolls/shelves Alvin.

  6. Player John makes Perry Palemaster.

  7. Perry starts on Skal, but soon goes to Cordor.

  8. Perry is discovered to be a palemaster in Cordor and gets pariahed.

  9. Perry starts getting PvPed outside of Cordor by Cordorians.

  10. Player John rolls/shelves Perry.

  11. Player John makes Nancy Necromancer (a girl this time!)

  12. Nancy starts in Cordor.

  13. Nancy is found out as a necromancer in Cordor, gets outed and pariahed.

  14. Player John says, "Why is Cordor bullying me?!?! I've played three characters, and this keeps happening."

Moral of the story: when you create characters who consistently end up on the bad side of a particular settlement or a group of people, consider what your characters have in common other than simply being played by you. If you keep trying to put a Banite dwarf in Brogendenstein, if you keep trying to put a drow supremacist in Shadowclaw territory, you're probably going to get the same results every time.

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:36 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:24 pm

i was under the impression that the whole pariah/exile system was purely a mechanical thing, with many settlements opting for pariah in most cases so as to not completely stifle somebody's roleplay through the automatic ejection script

Bendir in particular differentiates between 'pariah' and 'unwelcome', with the latter effectively being an exile, but only enforced by other players, as opposed to the script

the last time i played a character who attained pariah status, it was handled in this way, which i accepted at the time as an OOC invitation to continue roleplaying with the settlement in question, and i suspect this is the case for many other characters who i would otherwise expect to be exiled instead

I believe unwelcome and exile works exactly the same. It is just the name that is the difference.

Eira wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:25 pm

DMs have the ability to check logs for a thorough investigation. Admins can pull records of tells if someone is greentexting nasty things. Anything is possible to get to the bottom of. Sure, it takes work, but if you want to report the problem, the tools are there.

The mechanics exist so guards don't have to be online 24/7. There is a rule to not ignore NPC guards; when that is witnessed being ignored or broken, people should report it. The exile system is an example of representing NPC guard actions, by removing the person who is exiled; there are ways to counteract it as well.

If people do not report what they have a problem with, nothing will happen. Changing culture and upholding the rules is for both players and staff to work on, if they have a vision of improvement. Currently, there is a tendency to just let things slide, either thinking nothing will happen if they do report, thus ensuring nothing will ever happen, or that DMs will somehow see it all on their own. DMs are not omniscient.

Understandable. I have not heard of this. All I seen is people icly complain "The guards does nothing" about NPCs and use this to try to undermine elections and siting leaders. It is then reasonable to tell a DM about this.

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:28 pm
LurkingShadow wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:00 pm

...this is not the first time or the only current character that has issues with the two settlements in question. I know players feel left with no other option but to roll or flee because of elements on the server.

Not to speak to the particular incident, which I am certain I do not know everything about, but more generally, I have seen several cases in my two and a half years of what's basically the following:

  1. Player John makes Alvin Animator.

  2. Alvin starts in Cordor.

  3. Alvin is found out as an animator in Cordor, gets outed and pariahed.

  4. Alvin starts getting PvPed outside Cordor by Cordorians.

  5. Player John rolls/shelves Alvin.

  6. Player John makes Perry Palemaster.

  7. Perry starts on Skal, but soon goes to Cordor.

  8. Perry is discovered to be a palemaster in Cordor and gets pariahed.

  9. Perry starts getting PvPed outside of Cordor by Cordorians.

  10. Player John rolls/shelves Perry.

  11. Player John makes Nancy Necromancer (a girl this time!)

  12. Nancy starts in Cordor.

  13. Nancy is found out as a necromancer in Cordor, gets outed and pariahed.

  14. Player John says, "Why is Cordor bullying me?!?! I've played three characters, and this keeps happening."

Moral of the story: when you create characters who consistently end up on the bad side of a particular settlement or a group of people, consider what your characters have in common other than simply being played by you. If you keep trying to put a Banite dwarf in Brogendenstein, if you keep trying to put a drow supremacist in Shadowclaw territory, you're probably going to get the same results every time.

That I understand. But if its several players with several characters. Is the corridor bit to narrow in a settlement? If you make an Dwarf thats "Dwarf first, Gnomes are bad". Should all of those be thrown out?

What this thread is mainly about is to find how the server culture works. Im a rather new player and all servers have their own culture. Just look at what happended in the great split. Arelith and Amia became two vastly different things because the server culture differed between the different sides of the community. Then there is in server culture to. Myon has one, Cordor has one, Guldorand one and so on. We actively build something up, IC and OOC with how the culture works. To understand it is to master it, to be able to play. How far can you push it without exile or pariah? What will get you banned oocly? What are the rules, the two later are often universal and the same on most servers. Aka common sense and dont be an a****le.

I myself believe OOC communication is key to a proper server. It should not effect the IC but for every player to be comfortable an in understanding how it works, the server culture.


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:01 pm

LurkingShadow wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:36 pm

That I understand. But if its several players with several characters. Is the corridor bit to narrow in a settlement? If you make an Dwarf thats "Dwarf first, Gnomes are bad". Should all of those be thrown out?

If you're trying to make a dwarf that wants to promote a Dwarves First policy (despite the fact the Gnome Grotto is right there next to Brogendenstein, also part of the Earthkin Alliance, there are many gnomes living and doing business in Brogendenstein, etc.) and every time you make a dwarf like this they get told to shut up or are threatened with violence until they shut up, that's a function of IC culture at work. Brogendenstein has a "we accept gnomes" culture; just because this is dwarves-first dwarf #4 you're trying this on doesn't mean Brogendenstein's character community is going to react any differently than they did to dwarves-first dwarf #1.

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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:04 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:01 pm
LurkingShadow wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:36 pm

That I understand. But if its several players with several characters. Is the corridor bit to narrow in a settlement? If you make an Dwarf thats "Dwarf first, Gnomes are bad". Should all of those be thrown out?

If you're trying to make a dwarf that wants to promote a Dwarves First policy (despite the fact the Gnome Grotto is right there next to Brogendenstein, also part of the Earthkin Alliance, there are many gnomes living and doing business in Brogendenstein, etc.) and every time you make a dwarf like this they get told to shut up or are threatened with violence until they shut up, that's a function of IC culture at work. Brogendenstein has a "we accept gnomes" culture; just because this is dwarves-first dwarf #4 you're trying this on doesn't mean Brogendenstein's character community is going to react any differently than they did to dwarves-first dwarf #1.

No, of course not. But if the servers solution to all IC issues is exile, pariah or violence. You create a narrow corridor where this dwarf is killed, banished or exiled. Drow can sneak in and post on a message wall to lackluster reactions while someone seeing this Dwarf will rally the guards to kill him.

The irony of Arelith at times! Andunor is one of the most acceptant and welcoming settlements, concerning outcasts and criminals :D

EDIT: to allow more political or opinions create a more interesting conflict than just exiling everything that is not like the others. Like having many odd political parties. Otherwise it ends in exiles and PvPs and more odd outcasts in Andunor. And im not talking about those who outright do insane stuff like stalking, murdering or summoning manes.


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by eddymakaveli » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:08 pm

You'd be surprised at how insane people get that you need to exile them for stalking, yeah.


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:00 pm

eddymakaveli wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:08 pm

You'd be surprised at how insane people get that you need to exile them for stalking, yeah.

Yes, yes you do need to exile some people obviously.


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Re: Rules of Pariah and Exile

Post by DM Monkey » Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:10 am

I'm going to lock this thread now. Eira has explained Pariah/Exile very well, so please refer to their posts above.

If you feel like someone is taking actions against you based on OOC factors? Let the DM team know. We'll investigate it. Obviously we don't want bullying or anything like that, but quite often players will react to situations that come up IC and assume there's some OOC motivation behind it.

Usually there's nothing to it. It is far more common that there is a misunderstanding that comes about IC, or some other character with IC motivations is lying/cheating/acting in a way that you wouldn't expect them to, or there's just far more to the situation than any one character (or player) is aware of.

These rules are taken from https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#Rules_of_Engagement:

Everything has to be interactively roleplayed. If you evict someone from a shop or a house as a settlement leader or want to attack someone, there has to be roleplay. The person who is performing the settlement leader action or being the first to attack is the one who is expected to roleplay the most. This is to say, in other words:

Settlement Leaders / Political Powers Interactions

If you are a settlement leader, you may evict, pariah, exile anyone for anything. This is within your power for your character to abuse. It’s not really a problem unless you’re just obviously griefing. Every time you perform one of these actions, you must do it in person with the character you’re evicting, making pariah or exiling.

If you give another character mechanical permission to evict, pariah or exile then they may also perform these settlement powers as well. However, they are also required to meet the character face to face and do it in person as well.

As a settlement leader, you are expected to prioritize your time on the leader character over alts when playing Arelith.

Settlement leaders are not allowed to put down signs to reserve properties. The most they can do is put down a sign that states the new owner is obligated to present themselves to an authority figure to discuss the expectation of the property. If an arrangement can’t be worked out, the owner can then be evicted. However, a chance must be given first.

It is against the rules to avoid eviction, pariah or exile. If you’re summoned through speedy or letter, it’s expected that you make yourself known within a day or two of real life to suffer the in character punishment. These rules exist to foster roleplay, not for you to abuse and avoid by keeping your property forever because you can sneak.

Try harder! Help set a good example of roleplay for the server culture.


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