Iron Throne Company Ships

[Rei_Jin]

This is a question for the staff, as there's no clear rules posted about this on the Wiki, on the Discord Announcements, or in game from what I know, but it's had in-game effects.

Who is permitted to take an ongoing lease on the Iron Throne Company Ships, namely the First Sister and the Second Sister?

I have been told that Pirates with Ink (ie, Sencliff based Pirates) are not permitted to take the ongoing leases on these ships. Is this correct?

How do the leases on these ships work for races that are permitted to live both on the Surface AND in Andunor, such as Svirfneblin, Deep Imaskari, Yuan Ti, Gloamings, and so on? Are they permitted to take ongoing leases on these ships, or not?

[The GrumpyCat]

Whilst not mechanically enforced, we'd rather pirates not take leases with the Sisters- as they have enough ships on their own. Further more - it makes little sense for the Iron throne to lease ships to forces that might well attack their own interests!

I believe as to the second one - all the above races would be allowed to own such leases. Though if a Yuan-ti's nature became widly known things might get... awkward.

[-XXX-]

Whilst not mechanically enforced, we'd rather pirates not take leases with the Sisters- as they have enough ships on their own. Further more - it makes little sense for the Iron throne to lease ships to forces that might well attack their own interests!

I believe as to the second one - all the above races would be allowed to own such leases. Though if a Yuan-ti's nature became widly known things might get... awkward.

Here are some gameplay stats for wider context:

• there are atm 2 long lease and 2 rental ships for pirates
• Sencliff desperately needs its own flagship (or at least a second galleon class ship)
• as far as I can tell, the First Sister has been owned by the same Cordorian noble house ever since the Guldorand launch event (even throughout the Waterdeep-Amn war)
• the Second Sister has been owned by actual factual pirates (with dread ink and everything) for more time than it has been owned by non-pirates.

TBH, I kinda disagree with the statement that pirates have enough ships - Sencliff has 1 galleon, Guld has 1 flagship and 2 galleons. No wonder the pirates are trying to steal one!

[Subtext]

TBH, I kinda disagree with the statement that pirates have enough ships - Sencliff has 1 galleon, Guld has 1 flagship and 2 galleons. No wonder the pirates are trying to steal one!

Guld has one flagship. The city has zero control over the Iron Throne rentals so the statement that Guld had two Galleons is incorrect.

If anything, both Cordor and Guld have too few ships they have direct control over.

[-XXX-]

Guld has one flagship. The city has zero control over the Iron Throne rentals so the statement that Guld had two Galleons is incorrect.

If anything, both Cordor and Guld have too few ships they have direct control over.

Following that logic Sencliff has 0 control over the ships there too - they simply require the toon to have a certain pirate ink rank to own/rent, but there are no officials with eviction powers there.

Since now the DMs have stated that they'd prefer the pirates not to own the Iron Throne Galleons, the ink practically means trading an opportunity for owning one of the Sisters (2 galleons) for the chance of owning one of Sencliff ships (1 brig / 1 galleon) = comparable but worse ship access as non-pirates.

[ClockworkRed]

In my eyes, it would certainly help to have Galleon short term lease ships. For Pirates, Galleon access is decided by a single player with this rule, while there are usually several crews around, which are large enough to sail a Galleon.
In contrast in Guld my feeling is that there are not enough sailors for crewing the Second Sister and Tempest.

This is just a thought from my side. Would it not improve ship access and make some sense that the Second Sister becomes a short term lease and one of the Couriers long term lease in Guld to allow a smaller crew next to the Tempest and upgrade the Lib to be a Galleon for the Pirates.

[Wethrinea]

I think more short-lease ships of greater variety would be a boon to sailing characters of all stripes. The problem is usually either that you don't have enough people to crew a large ship, or you do not have access to a large enough ship for your crew.

The two couriers (along with that Cordor longship) provides the middle option with 3 crew vessels that can be used to take on the big PvE content with a highly skilled crew and lots of ammunition and repair materials, but the lack of larger short term lease ships preclude spontanous Galleon hunts by the sailing proletariat.

It would also be neat with two crew ships on short lease for those who just want to go whaling (since as far as I know you need a ballista for that), but I think there is only one ship of that size in the module, and it is long term.

[Flower Power]

We really don't need more long-lease galleons.

Every settlement + Sencliff has one, with two that aren't tied to settlements in Guldorand.

What we need are more small/mid-sized ships: another rental cog, maybe some rental brigs (as it stands, if you spot a brig at sea and it isn't the Starlight, you know it's a pirate. Non-piratical rental brigs adds some uncertainty into the mix.) What we could really use is a couple of long-lease galleys, because they're by far the most useable and versatile ship in the game.

Complaints about how the First Sister has been sat on by the Riv's for so long can equally be turned around with complaints that almost every other ship that isn't tied to a settlement has either been owned directly by pirates and passed off between them since the sailing system got introduced/expanded, or has been owned by the same pirate-adjacent/friendly owners for the entire period since as well. Sencliff's crews have never been hurting for options as long as you aren't aggressively antisocial/aren't actively burning down your bridges.

[-XXX-]

We really don't need more long-lease galleons. Every settlement + Sencliff has one, with two that aren't tied to settlements in Guldorand.

There are 4 galleons in total (Sisters, Wailing Mainden and the Ironhelm) out of which inked characters are allowed to own 1.
Then we have 3 flagships (Tempest, Leviathan and Dreadnought) - these are tied to settlements (none of which being Sencliff) and are effectively one tier above galleons.

What I'm talking about here is that since the DMs don't want pirates to own the Sisters, the number of Galleon class (and above) ships that pirates have access to has been reduced to 1 (the Wailing Maiden) that's supposed to be pitted against 6 other same tier class or better ships. This is PROFOUNDLY unfair.

Along the similar vein, there are 4 neutral (not tied to any settlement) long lease ships (Sea Leopard, Weary Troubadour and the Sisters). By barring the Sisters from pirates this pool has been reduced by half for them.

Complaints about how the First Sister has been sat on by the Riv's for so long can equally be turned around with complaints that almost every other ship that isn't tied to a settlement has either been owned directly by pirates and passed off between them since the sailing system got introduced/expanded, or has been owned by the same pirate-adjacent/friendly owners for the entire period since as well.

No, it really can't at this point. While cliques (both pirate and non-pirate) passing around neutral long lease ships might have been occasionally a problem before, I don't recall a single one of them sitting on a ship for 2.5+ years without actively using it.

Though my actual point was that memers of Cordorian nobility were able to retain this lease even during the period where Amn was in open WAR with Waterdeep. What's basically being implied here is that a crooked coalition like the Iron Throne cannot be persuaded to turn a blind eye when one of their ships is used for piracy, but they were somehow cool with leasing it to their SWORN ENEMIES.

[Takes]

This is PROFOUNDLY unfair.

I am of the mind that it should be unfair. I do not think pirates should have the numbers to rival the city-states or even come close. Pirates should be the underdogs. Kind of like how if you are signing up to play a monster race you are signing up for an unfair arrangement.

But, hey- maybe thats just me.

[Scurvy Cur]

I’ve largely stayed clear of this thread, but feel compelled to interject here, because -XXX- appears to be lacking critical information, and I understand why he is having trouble following the nuance of the politics involved.

Specifically: when the Rivorndir guys started weighing in on the war on Amn’s side, they were warned by Iron Throne representatives that any use of the vessel against Waterdeep would be construed as privateering, in the absence of a state of war between the iron throne and either belligerent party. Guld’s people who pitched in on the Waterdeep side received an identical warning (though one much less relevant because Guld didn’t own any of the galleons).

It is worth bearing in mind, if the intent is to fixate on the war, that the iron throne never aligned with either major power. This is because each member of Guldorand’s council has its own diverse interests, and while the iron throne was certainly happy to turn a profit over the war, it was never an “all caps sworn enemy” of either Amn or the Lord’s alliance, any more than Thay, the Moonshae Isles, the Church of Kelemvor, or the Flaming Fist (who all have as much council presence as the iron throne) were ever participants in the war. This, incidentally, is a big part of what Subtext is referring to in pointing out that Guldorand exercises no control over those ships.

I hope this helps to dispel some of the confusion.

[-XXX-]

I’ve largely stayed clear of this thread, but feel compelled to interject here, because -XXX- appears to be lacking critical information...

I fully realize that the DMs bent their server-wide plot in a way that wouldn't put them in a position where they'd need to start releasing properties from players due to no fault of their own.
At the same time they are trying to enforce a policy that severly limits another group of players - a policy which is not being mechanically enforced on its own.
We can beat around the bush all we want by pointing out how both of these policies are entirely reasonable propositions on their own (because they are), but at the end of the day this is still double standard.

I am of the mind that it should be unfair. I do not think pirates should have the numbers to rival the city-states or even come close. Pirates should be the underdogs.

While I get the underdog notion, atm. people often take out a fast rental up until the point they get into scrap with pirates only to immediately lens away and either

• whip out 2+ galleons in the hope of a thoroughly one-sided encounter
• bring a 10+ strong war party directly to Sencliff in the hope of a thoroughly one-sided encounter
  (I'm sensing a theme here)

Sencliff's all about sailing - there's not that much to do for characters outside of it around there. That pretty much means any and all activity there hinges on the willingness of the Wailing Maiden's owner to share and manage their property, because while the Liberator rental is also great and always available, truth is that brigs don't have much game against gallons or flagships even while manned by a superior crew.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

Heyo.
As others have already explained, trying to fish for lore reasons as to why the cordor nobles whos names are to evil to be named own a boat anymore are a bit silly. There was RP around it and all, so that is all good. Thanks for the people who provided some insight, I think a lot is really a perception issue.

Instead of reaching out for RP, I guess, people are rather complain about the lack of ships, or the activity. I dont think there are too few ships, or that the size of the ship determines the end of it. Pirates very much have the ability to kick everyones butt by virtue of being several ships and a wealth of (potentially) high sail characters with no bounds as to sail with who (Warlocks and the worst: bards). Ontop of potent costal defenses they could really give arelith a run for their money on the regular. But if the devs add another ship, a free player owned galleon there wouldnt hurt - I just think it would decrease the activity of the other ships even harder.
I think to fully crew all ships at once you need close to 40 or so people? That's a lot of sail characters. And you can share ships! Settlements are more tied than the others.
Incidentally the 2 man ship is probably the best ship out there.

Oh no gatekeeping. I think thats the biggest hurdle with sailing. Every settlement wants their own ship to be crewed by 6+ people at least with 100 sail average, that is a lot of players to coordinate into a timeframe. Then a couple more for player owned ships, and then pirates. Suprisingly people compete for sailors. That's good, I usually try to have 2 or so active crews going - but having limits as "no pirates, no warlocks" while also sharing the sail pool with the settlements? Not that many who want to sign up with the evil knievel noble house, or just hate the fact they would have to share with someone other than their super friends. This isn't even a hyberbole, I am really shy so I stare at you guys talk about me from stealth without ever reaching out to any of us.
Sailing also takes a couple hours of "you 6, dont leave" which is a schedule hurdle I know people do run in so they dont drop under the (percieved) mandated 100 sail average lest they be called bad sailors. This isnt really an issue for people, it just makes coordinating sails while also attending the many great events on arelith from others a bit of a hassle.

Also the nobles dont own the ship. And I am a relentless little shit about that fact.

In summary -
Go play with others, I think that would do more than adding more semi vacant ships. Adding more ships would just make the other ships who barely get going even less. And trust me, I stare at you guys a lot - but I am not online 24/7 so maybe I miss them sailing as much as they miss me.

I should put a notice board by every ship board so people can post their complaints there.

[DMSatyr]

The Iron Throne ships are not meant to be used by pirates. that has been said by Irongron and that is what the sign says quite clearly between the two leases of these ships. Those who uses the ships for those purpose will be evicted.

It is true that these ships have been used by pirates (Dryby) before but the sign and Irongron's position came just after that ship was passed to another lease, so that rule became valid after Dryby's ownership of that ship.

While there are certainly many opinions and many issues with the sailing mechanics and the availability of ships that I can sympathize with, I do not think that the pirates of Sencliff should consider themselves to be in a precarious position where the availability of ships are denied to them more than the average character on this island.

They have their own, exclusive, ships that one they can bid on which severely limits the amount of people in the lottery and they are the only group of characters who can rent a brigantine which provide a large advantage and far easier to get a superior sail score advantage than a galleon or flagship. Add to the fact that the Underdark and Crow's Nest ship(s) sometimes are available to them as well, I do not think there is an acute lack of ships for them that might be suggested here.

I can agree that Sencliff and their ships could need further overview, but I would not agree that being denied the Iron Throne ships is their main concern or what prevents the pirates from Sencliff to have access to relevant ships on the sea. As I understand it, the leases of the Iron Throne were meant to be mechanically gated from inked characters but that has not been implemented (yet?), but for now we refer to the large sign by the leases which says that these ships are not supposed to be used for any illegal (piratical) purposes.

[Flower Power]

Incidentally the 2 man ship is probably the best ship out there.

Can confirm, have used a cog to force galleons & flagships to Ship Lens away multiple times to hilarious results.

Having owned one of the Iron Throne ships before, and captained up a settlement flagship, and helped crew up multiple other ships (brigs, cogs, etc.), the galleons and bigger ships really aren't all they're cracked up to be. The smaller ships are eminently more practical and useable, and frankly, more fun.

I've never been a big "YOU MUST HAVE 100+ SAIL" person for my crews, but I've always treasured and aimed for hitting 90+ whenever possible, just because so much of the end content is just near-impossible (or financially unviable) to do without that much Sail. Because you have to constantly be sailing your ship to avoid having to gather the better part of a thousand wood logs or cotton, an absurd amount of oil/emulsified oils/dragon oil, and hundreds of thousands of gold because the ships degrade so rapidly, it can really quickly feel stressful to run one of the larger ships - you need to have a lot of people on hand consistently, keeping a similar schedule with hours of open availability at a time. And once they're onboard, there's a lot of social pressure on them to stay there, because if they have to bounce everyone else's trip probably comes to (more or less) a close.

Cogs, galleys and brigs, though? There's no stress there. Just grab a buddy or two. People are free to kind of come and go as they please or need, because the logistics of running the ship, the threshold to stay operational, are so much lower. They're just pure fun to derp around with - and a cog/galley used intelligently, or any brigantine crewed up well, are more than a match for most of the galleon/flagship crews most days. Smaller ships > Bigger ships.