Relevel Question

[Kythana]

I just want to get some clarification on rules.

Is it considered relevel abuse to take different feats/skills/attributes/classes in a different order in order to level faster/easier? Something like:

Leveling as an unpathed cleric to 30, and then releveling at 30 to Warpriest.

Taking appraise/search during leveling, but then dropping at 30.

Additionally, for builds where you dip classes for different save progression/bab progression, is it relevel abuse if I did something like:

Let's say I'm doing a battlebard, 21 bard, 6 fighter, 3 cleric. I level to 30, by doing 21 bard in order, then 6 fighter, then 3 cleric. At 30 I then relevel to do the proper spread, which has fighter and cleric in pre-epic. Is that considered abuse?

(Note I am not doing any of this currently, I just would like some clarification.)

[Curve]

Yes.

[Kythana]

Is this message out of date then?

[Curve]

I'm no DM. I am just going on reason. But what is the difference between doing what you are talking about and leveling with Craft Mastery, gearing yourself and then changing those skill points to concentration?

I feel like the quote from the DM lacks context.

Maybe they or another will chime in with a clarification, because I would love to level with heal and then take taunt, level with great cleave and then take IKD or like you say level with Appraise and Search and then take PvP skills.

[Kythana]

I'm no DM. I am just going on reason. But what is the difference between doing what you are talking about and leveling with Craft Mastery, gearing yourself and then changing those skill points to concentration?

I feel like the quote from the DM lacks context.

Maybe they or another will chime in with a clarification, because I would love to level with heal and then take taunt, level with great cleave and then take IKD or like you say level with Appraise and Search and then take PvP skills.

Completely agree. But I've actually seen a few people now suggest doing that, leveling different dip in different orders, for example, and claim that it's not abuse. So I'm hoping to get some DM clarification.

I really don't want to see relevel removed because it's being actively encouraged to be used in an unintended way, imo.

[CookieMonster]

There is a wiki page with information on this.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Character_remake

From the way the rules are written, the defination of "EXPLOIT" is using the relevel feature to achieve something your Character couldn't usually achieve, then changing back. Which is completely unfair

Can't open a lock? Remake and take Open Lock, Disable Trap and remake back once you've unlocked the Runic Chests.

Want to craft something faster? Remake and take Craft Mastery and every crafting feat and then remake back once you've finished the item.. Or worse.. That one crafting session.

Sick of those pesky Kobold spies taking Draconic and you can't? Remake and take a Sorc Dip and then remake back once you're out of the scene / RP.

Having to reorganise your feats to accomidate for Bonus Feats and Class Feats that you can utilise better with a different order is fine. In the same sense that if new spells are released, or changed, that a relevel to adjust your spellbook is acceptable (Provided it is for the longterm and not for an instant solution to a problem that you will change back from)

[MalKalz]

Is this message out of date then?

This was never discussed internally as an official response and would go against the intent of -relevel

The command exists to enable players to correct mistakes. People often get used to fast clicking and forget to put skill points in, or put it into the wrong skill. This enables you to fix those mistakes.

It is not meant to be used to make leveling easier and swapping to your intended path afterwards. That is exploiting it. So this:

Is it considered relevel abuse to take different feats/skills/attributes/classes in a different order in order to level faster/easier? Something like:

Leveling as an unpathed cleric to 30, and then releveling at 30 to Warpriest.

Falls into the exploiting category. This I would consider also:

Taking appraise/search during leveling, but then dropping at 30.

This one below:

Let's say I'm doing a battlebard, 21 bard, 6 fighter, 3 cleric. I level to 30, by doing 21 bard in order, then 6 fighter, then 3 cleric. At 30 I then relevel to do the proper spread, which has fighter and cleric in pre-epic. Is that considered abuse?

I am not sure why you would do it this way.

Going to give some numbers which I gave the DM team internally yesterday. Over the course of February, there was 1783 logged entries for -relevel, 801 unique characters used -relevel, 27 individuals that had a relevel count above our acceptable threshold on a single character. That means there was about 3.1% of people in that month abusing -relevel.

My intention is to not penalize the masses with removing it. We will be addressing those people that are abusing it. So far I've come up with stripping some levels, preventing re-level across their account or putting a Mark of Despair on the character. I've yet to decide what course I want to take. But, 111 relevels on a single character? That cries abuse.

Rule of thumb should be: Am I abusing it to benefit myself to make my life easier? If yes, then do not use -relevel. Am I fixing an honest mistake? Then you can use -relevel.

[Kythana]

I am not sure why you would do it this way.

Was just a random example. The more specific use cases would be something like leveling a melee PM, but taking more PM levels in your pre-epics than you would normally in order to get to summons faster, and then changing later to fix your BAB and APR progression.

Or 21 bard in that case to get spells quicker, ect.

I was under the impression that is abusive, and it sounds like it is.

Thanks for clearing it up!

[Coolguy McMagic]

What about cross-classing skills you would later have as class skills?
Simple example: You're a Wizard with a bard dip that you would usually take at levels 28-30. At max level, you would get 30 ranks in tumble. What if you cross-classed tumble on your Wizard levels to benefit from tumble AC earlier and then releveled into a full 30 rank investment at 28 to save skill points?

Mechanically it would appear to be relevel abuse, but at the same time it's not like you're changing what your character can and can't do throughout the entire process.

[cantalyssa]

I had to remake my most recent character I started three times because I can't build once in game to save my life.. and I still missed something that would require a full remake to fix. Leveling up I always mess my skills up or select wrong feat because reading is hard lol

Now that I know there's an upper level on relevels before I get flagged that's just gonna give me anxiety

[neowarrior]

See there a real mix of reasons to re level, some more logical then others, now this is just my opinion but I feel it comes down to streamlining a character to what you first envisioned is fair, Iv messed up countless times on level up to feats and skill points. (even with mapped out spreadsheets of what I wanted)

A good example was animal handling, I put 1 point into it because it has a use at lower levels and with equipment boosting it. but once I have a dominate animal spell, animal handling point was just dead (little point in animal handling rats when you can have tigers). So its just not logical to keep that point there. - now i feel this should be fine in my opinion to re-use that point, as long as i keep that spell because in RP sense its the same and logically better chance with the spell and not fundamentally change the RP with it (ie putting it in tumbles or disaplin but not say ride).

now, removing the spell could be abuse because iv lost an RP aspect that my charecter could do?

If i put that point into lore and now able to use the scroll is that a grey area?

This is when it comes into question. Abuse or not?

While on the other hand I feel like wildly changing on a re-level is terrible and should be punished, epsically if you have established yourself in a lot of RP that then you cannot do that RP later on because of the re-level.

It's where that pcc server comes in I guess, to map out them levels correctly to limit such from happening. But I also feel like the changes in the game will make many people re-level anyway. I know of at least a person who had a viable build that changed so it wasn't and re-leveled trying to keep the spirit of the character but sadly fundamentally was different.

But at that point I feel it makes it unfair to be classed as abuse.

[Iceborn]

Common sense is advised.

Shifting some things from time to time, that's okay.
Reaching 30 rogue and deciding you may be better off as a rogue/wiz/pm?
Perhaps not outright abuse, but you may get a talking to and a delevel.

Keep your nose clean and treat -relevel with respect, or it may get gated behind RPR/Limited to a number of uses permanently/slowed down with a cooldown/entirely removed.