Build advise: Monk (TY!)

[The Man of the Moon]

Hello. I am in need of advices, tip, help! with monk builds...

I started a monk, now level 9, but I am feeling like if I made a fatal error

I played epic monks in the past (lots of years ago), but I admit that with top level 40, you don't need to be as carefully as it seems you need to be in Arelith where each election must be taken with double careful... So now, I feel like lost in traslation... out of time... LOST!!!

I started my monk as human with the following stats: (DEX, CON and WIS all modified with the +2 Gifts)

STR 11
DEX 19
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHR 8

No path (he is not kensai, nor background)

I picked the following FEATS as far:

- Dodge
- Mobility
- Weapon Finesse
- Circle Kick
- Weapon Focus (unarmed)

So...

My questions:

1. Did I do a fatal error with the starting stats?
2. Did I was a dick with the feats I selected?
3. What other feats should I pick for sure before hit epic levels?
My thoughs are:

- Blind Fight
- Spring Attack
- Toughness
- Expertise

Is there anyother feat that I required and that I were missing?

As my monk is just level 9 and not so high (and most important, young enough IG so I wouldn't miss him too much), I am not worried about delete him while there is time and it is not so late... to restart a new concept (I have diferent concepts for the RP of my monk, so won't be a trouble change concept as i became a new and diferent monk)

[The Rambling Midget]

You don't need Mobility or Spring Attack, because you're never going to provoke AoOs and Tumble will keep you safe when you move around in combat. Low INT may become a problem if you want to do anything other than combat. Expertise may be useful as a defensive mode, but pure Monks have garbage AB, so you won't be a very good fighter while it's on.

Your stats look mostly okay, and heavily focused on defense. If that's the path you want to take, focus on more defensive feats like Epic Energy Resistance, and be a dedicated -guard.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Yeah, never make a character with below 14 (13) Intelligence unless you're doing it for "RP reasons" - it denies you Expertise, and with the new NWNX change, it's now awesomer than ever.

You're also forgetting Improved Critical. Never take Mobility unless on an Archer - and wah Circle Kick no.

You also 100% want Blind Fight. In the world of concealment, it's godsend.

[The Man of the Moon]

Yes... I was bleeding cause the low INT factor...

Then, what changes do you recomend me in order to get...let's say INT 14?

Should I exchange CON 16 to CON 12? (then, with Toughness I could balance and keep +10 hp/level)?

SUMMARY:

Keep:
- 14 INT
- Dodge
- Weapon Finesse
- Weapon Focus (unarmed)
- Blind Fight
- Toughness
- Expertise
- Improved Critical (unarmed)

Avoid:
- Mobility
- Spring attack
- Circle kick (that makes me spread too much the damage, yes)

[The Rambling Midget]

Drop your DEX. Unless you're going for a feat, you don't need to have it super high. It's better to balance your stats, especially since Monks have multiple AC stats.

You can go 12 STR, 15 DEX, 14 CON, 14 WIS, 14 INT, 8 CHA at creation.
Gifts pump it up to 12, 17, 16, 16, 14, 8. With that, you can get 24 DEX at level 28.

Max out Tumble, Discipline, and Heal, and spread the rest between Lore, Concentration, Listen(20+), Hide(15), and Move Silently(15).

[The Man of the Moon]

Drop your DEX. Unless you're going for a feat, you don't need to have it super high. It's better to balance your stats, especially since Monks have multiple AC stats.

You can go 12 STR, 15 DEX, 14 CON, 14 WIS, 14 INT, 8 CHA at creation.
Gifts pump it up to 12, 17, 16, 16, 14, 8. With that, you can get 24 DEX at level 28.

Max out Tumble, Discipline, and Heal, and spread the rest between Lore, Concentration, Listen(20+), Hide(15), and Move Silently(15).

Well... I was planning to get Epic dodge at epic levels after 5 sd levels, once reaching level 21

19 dex at start + 6 dex from leveling (at 24) or +5 from elveling + feat at 21? could allow me to get it at some point before 25?

Perhaps, if keeping pure monk untill level 20 (to get as fast as posible immunity to mind threats...), then I could raise sd levels form level 21 to 25, allowed to get epic dodge at level 26 or 27 once raising again monk levels.

[The Rambling Midget]

Yeah, that could work. I wouldn't drop INT below 12. You can sacrifice some STR, CON, or WIS.

[Garrsi]

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with what TRM said. If you're making a DEX based monk, you're going to want epic dodge, it's just a terrible waste not to since with that lovely monk AC you're basically immune to all meleers bar the Weapon Masters and the Arcane Archers (and even they're going to have a 20% chance to miss along with missing on the first attack).

There's two ways you can get it, along with your monk levels you're going to either need to take 13 Rogue levels (assuming you take Defensive Roll on level 13) or 5 Shadowdancer as you mentioned(in which case you will need to take Mobility and Dodge to qualify). Normally I'd recommended SD but since the class has been made more or less useless on Arelith I'd suggest going Rogue; you get UMD and a ton of skills along with a decent sneak attack.

Edit: Ninjad alas...But yes, Monks actually don't really need all that much CON or STR. Your fists base damage at higher levels will more than make up for a lack of STR and with Monk SR and Epic Dodge you really shouldn't be getting hit that often at all.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

AC and defense is the not the concern of monks, moreso doing enough damage to remain relevant at epic levels.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

Epic Dodge requires 25 Dex, 30 Ranks in Tumble, Improved Evasion, and Defensive roll. You can first take it at level 27. ED does not require Dodge to qualify so you can get rid of that feat from your list too.

You will want your Dex to be as high as you can while maintaining your other stats to not only qualify for ED but to keep your AB as high as you can. Fist monks suffer from lowish AB when compared to other martials.

You will want Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, Great Dex, ESF: Dicipline, and EWS if you can fit them all in to Epics.

Pre-Epic you will want to consider Great Fortitude and, if you are not getting 20 levels of monk, Iron Will.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

Hey TMOTM (I'm just going to call you TOMTOM, it's easier!)

If you're remaking, giving you a character build is MUCH easier if we know a general concept. All we've got right now is that you want a dex/wis monk that's primarily monk (level 21+). Do you have any more restrictions? That's what makes figuring out builds possible, because there's just SO much you can do.

Few questions -
Alignment?
Classes you're unwilling to take?
Would you possibly be strength based?
Are you dead-set on Epic Dodge? Or just Shadowdancer? Or neither?
What kind of "flair" do you want with this character?
Unarmed or kamas? Or does it not matter?

If you don't want to discuss these things on the forum, very much understood, but it does make the character creation process better. If it's personal, feel free to PM me (or whoever jumps in) so they can go from there.

Depending on your above answers, you could do anything from Monk/Ranger/Assassin to Monk/Paladin and have it be viable.

[The Man of the Moon]

Hey TMOTM (I'm just going to call you TOMTOM, it's easier!)


Few questions -
Alignment?
Classes you're unwilling to take?
Would you possibly be strength based?
Are you dead-set on Epic Dodge? Or just Shadowdancer? Or neither?
What kind of "flair" do you want with this character?
Unarmed or kamas? Or does it not matter?

Thanks a lot! (to everyone) I have no problem to answer here.

Few questions -
Alignment? LG or LN (Need to polish some RP concerns)
Classes you're unwilling to take? as much monk levels as posible + 5 sd levels (for epic dodge)
Would you possibly be strength based? Not sure... Guessing I prefer dexer
Are you dead-set on Epic Dodge? Or just Shadowdancer? Or neither? I didn't understood this question, sorry... If meaning if I will continue as monk after getting epic dodge requirements...yes, I want as much monk levels as posible (monk 25/5 sd)
What kind of "flair" do you want with this character? a misterious wanderer working as hiden witness of most of the important events, working towards the balance and harmony (basically to keep doing good and protecting the Light against the Darkness, while learning about the Darkness to better fight it... well... this is a sketch of the concept tha I need to polish... In the other had, he wants enlightment and is in the pursuit for perfection and enhance mind and body... in the following of the perfect balance of mind and the happyness XD).. hmm... LOL... Batman? hells...
Unarmed or kamas? Or does it not matter? Preferibly unarmed, but kamas could do too

[yellowcateyes]

If you intend to go as heavy monk as possible, using SD instead of rogue levels to get Epic Dodge, then you're best off sticking to unarmed rather than kamas.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

I really dig the theme. A wandering monk in search of personal excellence/perfection, while also trying to act it out on the world.

So what I'm basing these off of: non-evil monk that's got at least 20 monk levels. General ideas:


Monk 20/Ranger 10
- Can be Dex or Strength based for either great AC/stealth or great Damage/Gainz. Two weapon fighting with kamas for a silly number of attacks per round at a solid AB. Has favored enemy for the more common practitioners of darkness.
- Issue with the Dex-side is that you don't have uncanny dodge, so if you get KD'd you're going to have major issues.
- Doesn't get epic dodge, doesn't care (will comment later).
- Possibly Monk 20/Ranger 6/Fighter 4 || You lose an attack from improved TWF and some favored enemy bonuses, but gain +6 damage on all your other attacks, plus a feat.
- Definitely a more aggressive character type.

Monk 25/SD 5
- Honestly, this build is going to be rough to play. You'll be hard to hit, and might have a shot at getting Self-Concealment, but you'll also have pitiful damage and not even be that un-hittable until epic levels. If it fits your theme, however, go for it. Theme trumps all, but if you want SD for Epic Dodge, go with the below.
- If you're okay with it, Monk 20/Fighter 5/SD 5 is a solid alternative. Gives you the bonus damage you need, another attack, another feat, etc.

Monk 20/10 Rogue
- Gets the same defensive benefits as SD (Epic Dodge)
- Actually has a damage buff via sneak attacks.
- Access to UMD (almost a necessity on Arelith), and tons of skill points
- Can use TWF with Kamas or fists

Monk 21/Paladin 4/Fighter 5
- "Sacred Fist" kind of theme. This character is very on a mission to make the world right.
- Gives you bonus damage, fear immunity at low levels, access to divine spells, even if it loses out on the UMD.

Monk 30
- Amadeo did it, why can't you?!

Are we hitting around the mark of what you want with any of these? Hit me up with any thoughts that you've got.

Edit: Oops, two thoughts on Monks.
1) To be late-game viable, monks really need good gloves to do damage. Without decent bonus damage, they've not got much going for them despite all those attacks (from what I know). And, sadly, Arelith doesn't really have many great gloves (again, from memory). Unarmed monks are difficult to pull off, but not impossible. Kamas benefit from bonus weapon damage (which arelith has a lot of), so keep it in mind when you're doing your weapon calculations.
2) Epic dodge is not worth basing a whole build around. Yes, it is a fantastic ability - and when you could get it at level 21 is was WELL worth going out of your way for. But you can't get it until level 27 since the .69 update and at that point, how much more good is it going to do you? You've already survived most of your adventuring, and at level 27, you've probably already gone to all the epic areas on the server without dying - so won't need it. It's a great ability, just comes too late to go out of your way for it. If it falls in your lap based on a build theme, grab it. But don't fret if you don't get it.

[The Man of the Moon]

Thank you very much.
Seems like I have now stuff to carefully study before decide!

DragoneyeIIVX opened a wide breach on my former idea, so now I have several fronts opened and will need to give it a serious though.

[The Man of the Moon]

Something about weapons...

Best kama a monk could get:
Masterly Damask kama + perma essence +4 dmg?
Hit. +3
Damage: +6 +4 elemental
Base dmg of weapon 1d6

Average dmg per hit: 13
Max damage per hit (not critical): 16

Best gloves a monk could get:
Fists of the Hin something... going with essence
+3 Hit
Damage: +4 (essence)
Base damage: 1d20 (with 20 monk levels)

Average dmg per hit: 14
Max damage per hit (not critical): 24

Standard Gloves enchanted with three elemental 1d4:
Hit: +0
Damage: 3d4 elemental (positive, negative and sonic, perhaps)
base damage: 1d20

Average damage per hit: 16
max damage per hit (not crit): 32


A vs. B. B wins, but A could get in a ranger build 10 attacks (with haste) against the 7(8 in haste) unarmed... But unarmed can use then quivering palm and stunning attacks and never get disarmed.

C is like B, but while losing 3 BAB, raises slightly the damage.

Not considering critical hits since will be not a huge change considering their rarity with 19-20 critical range with improved critical or 20 without.

I think unarmed is better UNLESS you went dual whielding kamas (but then your crappy monk AB will get lowered by 2 if being aswell ranger... worse even if not)

All this calculation considering 20 monk levels (less monk levels will make drop significativaly the unarmed dmg)

[Winter83]

2) Epic dodge is not worth basing a whole build around. Yes, it is a fantastic ability - and when you could get it at level 21 is was WELL worth going out of your way for. But you can't get it until level 27 since the .69 update and at that point, how much more good is it going to do you? You've already survived most of your adventuring, and at level 27, you've probably already gone to all the epic areas on the server without dying - so won't need it. It's a great ability, just comes too late to go out of your way for it. If it falls in your lap based on a build theme, grab it. But don't fret if you don't get it.

This the most encouraging bit of thoughts I've read lately. You are completely right.
Epic dodge is such a wonderfully, miraculous epic super-duper cookie its easy to get fixated on it, gritting teeth and struggling hard to crawl up to that level 27 (I know I did. Soured the whole concept for me).
And when you finally grab it you realize: Its nice. But wont make a difference. Level 27 or *gasp* Level 30 already and you were fine without it.

[The Man of the Moon]

2) Epic dodge is not worth basing a whole build around. Yes, it is a fantastic ability - and when you could get it at level 21 is was WELL worth going out of your way for. But you can't get it until level 27 since the .69 update and at that point, how much more good is it going to do you? You've already survived most of your adventuring, and at level 27, you've probably already gone to all the epic areas on the server without dying - so won't need it. It's a great ability, just comes too late to go out of your way for it. If it falls in your lap based on a build theme, grab it. But don't fret if you don't get it.

This the most encouraging bit of thoughts I've read lately. You are completely right.
Epic dodge is such a wonderfully, miraculous epic super-duper cookie its easy to get fixated on it, gritting teeth and struggling hard to crawl up to that level 27 (I know I did. Soured the whole concept for me).
And when you finally grab it you realize: Its nice. But wont make a difference. Level 27 or *gasp* Level 30 already and you were fine without it.

Right, I see the point... absolutely.

So another dream or shiny legend broken on my thoughs about the build XD

I will take a second look to the DragonEye tips to see new concept then...

[Lorkas]

I don't regret going for epic dodge, for what it's worth.

[SwampFoot]

30 monk is nice if you crank wisdom a bit for Ki Strike 4 and 5. Stunning fist has a ridiculous DC, mages no longer are safe just dropping a stoneskin on and everyone is at risk of dying out right by quivering palm.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

If you can hit their AC.

[Ecstatic]

30 monk is not neccessary to get improved ki strike, and has no bearing on the DC of stunning fist, which is calculated on character levels rather than class levels.

[yellowcateyes]

everyone is at risk of dying out right by quivering palm.

Everyone that isn't equal or higher level than you. Quivering Palm is mostly a shock tactic against lower-level characters.

Quivering Palm also uses Character Level, not Class Level, in calculating DC. You don't need 30 monk to drive it up to high DCs.

[The Man of the Moon]

Ok

Started my monk again after delete the wrong one...

Starting stats:

STR 14
DEX 16 (+2 gift) >> 18
CON 10 (+2 gift) >> 12
INT 14
WIS 14 (+2 gift) >> 16
CHR 8 (His scanty social skill and his face, burnt and full of dark scars won't help him to do many friends)

As starting feats (being human) I picked
- Blind Fight
- Toughness

And in a later level I picked
- Weapon Finesse

Guessing this is a better start that at least will allow me to only delevel the character if I made a new mistake, instead completely delete him.

From there, I could raise him in many diferent concepts...
Also I left availability to add other classes as (sd, ranger or paladin or even priest...) so depending how he evolved I will pick one or other... or follow the Amadeo sample and go pure monk.

Thanks to everyone for your tips and guidance! All those answers were all very useful to let me redo my monk in a better build and concept (I added some RP meaning new apearance, matching better his low CHR and a reason for his redo that at some point I will add into his BIO)

T H X !