True Flame Spell Selection

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Skarain
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Skarain » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:00 am

Trueflame is 2 apr and no haste. Hitting with a correct tool deals normal damage and +25 invisible damage. That is 50-60 damage per round. An autoquickened TF deals comparable or greater damage faster with spells. People do not want to wait, even if you have 5% greater chance per hit to get bonus resources.

That's my take on it.

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Kenji
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:12 pm

The gathering tools currently don't give the 5% additive bonus chance for the resource to drop. It appears there was an intention to do so in the scripts but it is not fully implemented.

But let's indulge the thought for a bit -
For resources like coal that has a 90% drop chance:
A TF wielding the tools could potentially hit 249 damage on a node and then surpass 26 damage required to get the extra tick, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. The uncertainty here in melee attacks isn't in the TF's favor compared to calculated spell damage that a TF can easily achieve.

So we're looking at:
0.95 * 10 = 9.5 resources per node (didn't go past the 275 threshold)
0.95 * 11 = 10.45 resources per node (went past the 275 threshold)
or
0.9 * 12 = 10.8 resources per node (300+ threshold via scorching ray + ice dagger combo)
0.9 * 13 = 11.7 resources per node (325+ threshold via cone of cold + ice dagger combo)

On average the TF will gain more with the Scorching Ray combo or gets better with the Cone of Cold combo.

Here's the comprehensive spreadsheet with the average drop rate:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

For these resources, it starts to even out at a 20% base drop chance (assuming the wielder is meek and doesn't attack as often, a TF, for example)

For resources such as adamantine, it'll be better if one uses the resource tools if the 5% bonus chance is present, which it currently isn't.

Another thing to keep in mind is that attacking with TF's BAB (2 or 3 depending on if the character had full BAB class dips such as hex, BG, or paladin pre-epic), let's assume 3 APR, but 4 with dual-wield.

Average of 36 damage per attack, which results in roughly around 2 rounds per node clear time.

Auto-quicken Scorching Ray combo takes 2 rounds per node clear time.

AQ Cone of Cold combo takes 3 rounds per node clear time. (or 1.5 rounds for 10 ticks instead of 13)

The different clear times will result in what economists call an "Opportunity Cost" where the longer one dwells in an area, the slower the gatherer gets to the next node. And that could mean a couple of things: the next node being cleared by others, the overall clear time takes longer to complete, etc.

I'd say there is maybe some merit to using the resource tools iff the 5% bonus chance is present, which, again, it currently isn't, and the TF bothers buffing up the strength score with zoo spell, casting elemental weapon on the gathering tools and dual-wield said tools.

P.S.: "iff" stands for "if and only if"
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Amnesy
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Amnesy » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:44 am

Hello,

When I look at my notes about TF and evocation spells, I had a few comments on my own:

Cloud of Bewilderment:
Should be conjuration by SRD.

Sound Lance:
By RAW sonic damage should be 1 dice lower than other elemental spells of the same level. Here it is one dice higher and party-friendly. It should sit on the 5th tier. The SRD version is a single target, not an AOE.

Wall of Fire/Ice:
Empower makes it unpleasant, as it should only empower 2d6, not the whole dmg (by the book). Other than that, stacking walls should be looked into.

Ice Storm:
It should hold save vs movement decrease, but on Arelith it is compensated with more DMG, which is fine since Warlocks use it as well.

Darkbolt:
TF could have +15 Dart removed from AB bonus, preferably by capping the max bonus from items to +5.
Perhaps it should scale slower (like per 3CL, not 2CL), by the time one can cast it, it is already at 70-80% scaling.

Delayed Blast Fireball:
This is a weird one, as I do not use it on my TFs and I haven't seen it being used. Perhaps there is some hidden gem to it?

Incendiary Cloud:
Should be conjuration by SRD.

Sunburst:
According to SRD: Should work also on fungi, mold, oozes, and slimes as if they were undead, and should dispel the darkness in the area of effect.

Iceberg:
I do not know if it is just me, but the spell VFS makes NWN engine and FPS go BRRRRR, perhaps VFX could be updated to be less hardcore - nevertheless, I like it as it is now.

Greater Ruin
Hellball
Evocation should not hit with positive, negative, divine, etc.
Perhaps it could be re-adjusted and placed as magic.
Current: Lysrithien.

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Kenji
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:29 pm

Dreams wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:42 am
I think spells really should at least have a toggle for whether you want them to be area destroying or not. Some spells damage fixtures, some spells don't. All spells that normally would SHOULD do this, as it is a risk of casting that particular spell. If that's too much of an inconvenience for people to learn the placement of spells, then having a toggle could help a great deal.
Feel free to post this to the suggestion box when it's open. For now, let's keep the discussion focused on TFs rather than generic spell effects that affect the entire spellcasting community rather than TFs alone.
Amnesy wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:44 am
While I agree with a few of these, the majority of these should be in the feedback section.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss which available spells to TF should be picked for what purpose and what to do with said spells rather than turning it into a suggestion thread on what to do to the spells.

Except this one:
Amnesy wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:44 am
Delayed Blast Fireball:
This is a weird one, as I do not use it on my TFs and I haven't seen it being used. Perhaps there is some hidden gem to it?
DBF is indeed a hidden gem and often underutilized. It's also borderline broken when stacked with TF's infinicast, making the spell ideal to set up kill zones for PvE purposes and a zoning tool for PvP purposes, if the TF is allowed time to set it up.

It's only tricky because communication with party members is key when it comes to setting up DBF. Setting up multiple DBF to one-shot bosses can be a crucial tool for solo TFs.

It's even more powerful with Empower Spells meta magic feat and is one of the reasons why Empower Spells is just as good a pick as Maximize Spells for TFs.
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Nitro
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:09 am

Thing is, why would you ever set up DBF killzones when you could set up Wall of Fire killzones? The average damage is lower but the wall is saveless so that equalizes the damage and on top of that has no friendly fire (or loot destruction) and lasts longer which allows for easier stacking.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:55 am

Take the barbarian king writ for example, that's not something you want to be kiting around on a TF with the wall of fire, but want to kill it as soon as possible to minimize its damage dealt to you as a TF.
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chris a gogo
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by chris a gogo » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:16 am

I can see DBF having a use but as you can lay a field of fire right across the screen and watch every spawn run to there deaths as they charge you rather than just one I don't think it's the most effective choice, but i can see it as a viable option dropping grasping hand and taking DBF in it's place is an option that wouldn't detract much from a character.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:18 pm

There's a limit to which how many Wall of Fire can be stacked. In this case, it'll be pre-epic TF that's either manually quickening or empowering the wall of fire in this case. Let's assume one lasts 9 rounds, if manually quickened, it means 18 walls of fire (perfect conditions and all that) as the first one cast expires immediately after pulling the mob. If the TF is then kiting around, two walls of fire will diminish per round over time and they'll deal 2d6 + 18 per wall of fire, that's an average of 400 damage and 50 less each round as opposed to 95 (half if saved) average damage per empowered DBF, which also stacks from 8 to 9 up to twice that amount if hasted.

While the TF will technically deal more damage with walls of fire over 8 rounds (a lot can happen in that time), DBF will be able to deal from 475 (if all are, unluckily enough, ref saved) all the way up to 1615 damage within 1 round or 2 if aptly placed without requiring the TFs to kite as much. Hence why it can be the ideal spell to deal with high DPS bosses that the TF doesn't want prolonged exposure to.

The downside is DBF will eat up around 10 to 20 components. But personally, I'd pick safety over hassle if I knew the boss mobs aren't high on ref save and have evasion. It's not something to be done every pull, of course, but an option for TFs for encounters that have higher stakes.
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Nitro
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:25 pm

DBF also has the downside of dealing with groups poorly, as unlucky pathfinding can see a single enemy (other than your intended target) setting off your carefully set trap.

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