Stealth compedium

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Eldariash
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:15 am

Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:48 am

Stealth Compedium


Greetings, good day, dark cycles and whatsnot.

There have been allot of posts about stealth in various forms and its mechanics.
Some of these contain misinformation false numbers and such.
Loveing number crunching and building I descided to make this post.
People can then see this to inform themselves, or add notes and posts on things I missed!
So here goes my attempt at a stealth compedium.

Preface:

A calc will be done without a race in consideration so its as if a human is used. Then there will be a number to show the max and minimum change by race and a few races mentioned.
- The theoretical max will build the biggest bonus possible with one exclusion Epic ability feats are ignored.
- The mastered average will be a more common average and reachable score. Match this score or pass it if you want succes.
Also to note I have not tested every bit in the pgcc most is wiki based unless I know the wiki is faulty.

Then its counters will be calced and listed. Followed by the comparison of average strength of counterplay and my opinion on if its good or not. This last bit is very much an opinion and the biggest open for discussion bit.
This will always be a work in progress and something I'll correct regularly.
Here we go on building the wall of text!
  • 1- Hide
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 17 Feats+ 14 Dex mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 20 Shadowdancer Hide+ 2 Cleric Trickery domain = 136+D20
Feats:
SF Hide/MS (5), ESF Hide/MS (10), Stealthy (2)
Racial:
-10 (Ogre) +9 (Fey, Derro)
Mastered average:
111+D20 (Changes from a average of +15 Dex mod due to +2dex race, most not being shadowdancer but with a cleric dip, 44 soft (gear, good hope, camo, one with,..), A good point to compare your own skill to)
  • 2- Spot
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 19 Feats+ 14 Wis mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 7 Ranger Favored enemy+ 9 Warlock Star+5 Standing still = 137+D20
Feats:
SF Spot/L (5), ESF Spot/L (10), Alertness (2), Artist (2), Blooded (2)
Racial:
-5 (Firbolg, Half-Giant Fire/Frost/Storm, Ogre) +7 (Imp)
Mastered average:
108+D20 (Changes from a average of +1 Wis mod due to zoo buff on a 8 wis, no ranger no warlock, 50 soft (gear good hope clairvoyance, bard..), A good point to compare your own skill to)
Note:
Here a cleric wisdom dedicated spotter with feats has about equal points to a dedicated bard spotter (15 wis +2 cleric but only 34 soft = 108+D20)
  • 3- Counterplay Hide
First lets check top and average on the main hide spot.
Theo max: 136+D20 vs 137+D20 => 56% chance on being detected races not included
Average: 111+D20 vs 108+D20 => 38% chance on being detected
Favors the hiders on average detectors being dedicated bards and clerics, vs dedicated sneaks (rogue bard sin soonish vigi?)
Next what other plays are there:
True seeing => Hard counter but short duration
Invisibility => Hard counters spot but had a duration and True seeing, See invis.
+10 to hide if spotter is in combat +5 if hider stands still +5 back arc +5 night if spotter has no torch or darkvision
-10 if hider has a light source. These are all situational and usually will not come into play.
A true spotter will have a torch to RP at night wont be in combat all the time,...

Notes:
I would say this is a ok state to be in the system favoring the hider slightly. But we haven't included town debuffs, the prevelance of people using true sight on doors and during meetings,... It's really not worth the risk to lets say RP spy on a conversation let alone the facts that as a spy you need to bypass doors (always only one way in and doors are noisy if you can open them!), know language,... Hope they dont have ward and scry on em but spy's are generally dead.

Sneaking in combat is a diffirent beast. Usually you'll fight in the wild lone targets, who may not be spotters. But for those sneaks you wont even need these numbers. But spy RP is dead, pickpockets may show up but will be snuffed out fast. Quarter breaking already during the act reveals an odd door movement, tracks, proof of break in unless sleight of hand is used. Might aswell just hope no one happens to visit while your doing it.

RP stealth play are things like planting evidence in quarters, notes threats, spying on convo's,... These have too bad risk to reward and is one of the reason the rogue sentiment is as it is.
Proof to be given: Anyone who has secret convo's in your quarter how many spies did you actually catch with true sight? None cause no one risks it its just not worth it RP is gone.

Fixes ideas:
- Big quarters used for meetings should have multiple ways in with the indoors entrances having some distance. Good example hawk'in barracks of bendir. Bad nearly all quarters.
- Options for spying could be that doors can be silently opened by breakers to sneak into conversations after the initial True seeing spam is over. Would need the above mentioned multiple ways in and no one spot to see all door movement. Perhaps a option to teleport in added to the sequence of breaking a door?
- Scry ward prevents true sight in its area? Hah

These two reduce True sight, doors being noisy and visible.

- Race options should not climb! I saw a post mentioning rakshasha gets +12 disguise etc once i get to disguises it'll be shown why not. But in general with races like elves (prevelant having 4-7 bonus on a already scewed system) Keep races thematical but small for both the hiding and the counter spotting.
- Add some hard cap to stealth classes its needed. Since its around 40/60 system will see little stealth play 40/60 still has to contend with the hard counter, languages, doors, and the fact that information is only a means to RP further. Someone stealing RP intel shouldn't be so stopped. Hell why not a 20/80 in favor of hide? Will this break combat? Naaah the sneaks doing corner sneaking and killing you is more about you being a bad detector and solo vs someone meant to abuse that. If they have 80 Hide or 200 vs your 30 spot it wont matter. This should be more looked at in how strong they remain in combat with how easy it is for them to get the sneak skills. I think this is at a fine point sure they can be strong but they are suffering from feat straign bad overal combat preformance. If they dont get their sneaks off they'll lose. Crowd control buddies spend in listen or spot scrolls movespeed keep a distance from stuff they hide behind dont chase em. Let them run to cover and just use a true sight and disengage in the other way. Just say Snuggle a Bugbear em xD

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  • 4- Move Silently
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 17 Feats+ 14 Dex mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 2 Cleric Trickery domain = 116+D20
Feats:
SF Move Silently/H (5), ESF Move Silently/H (10), Stealthy (2)
Racial:
-7 (Half-Giant Stone) +9 (Fey, Goblin, Imp, Derro)
Mastered average:
101+D20 (Changes from a average of +15 Dex mod due to +2dex race, with a cleric dip, 34 soft (gear, good hope, one with,..), A good point to compare your own skill to)
  • 5- Listen
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 17 Feats+ 14 Wis mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 7 Ranger Favored enemy+ 5 Standing still = 126+D20
Feats:
SF Spot/L (5), ESF Spot/L (10), Alertness (2)
Racial:
-5 (Firbolg, Half-Giant Fire/Frost/Storm, Ogre) +7 (Imp)
Mastered average:
115+D20 (Changes from average +15 Wis mod due +2wis race, no ranger, 50 soft (gear good hope clairvoyance, Amplify), A good point to compare your own skill to)
Note:
Here a cleric wisdom dedicated listener is better and it shows the issue with Amplify!
  • 6- Counterplay Move Silently
First lets check top and average on the main hide spot.
Theo max: 116+D20 vs 126+D20 => 88% chance on being detected races not included
Average: 101+D20 vs 115+D20 => 96% chance on being detected
Favors the listeners heavyly!! detectors being dedicated clerics, vs dedicated sneaks (rogue bard sin soonish vigi?)
Next what other plays are there:
True seeing => Hard counter but short duration
Silence => Hard counters Listen but had a duration and True seeing still counters
+10 to MS if spotter is in combat +5 if hider stands still and a distance mod
These are all situational and usually will not come into play much.

Notes:
This is a very bad state a same investment really breaks the game here. But there is a point to be made of there being less dedicated listeners. But even then I'd argue the strength of them is too much.

Again combat sneak is a diffirent beast and not really the point in this subsection. Maybe i'll add a combat section later. But there is to note that listen is the biggest way to increase your success vs corner sneaks.

Fixes ideas:
- Again quarter design the flow of people will reduce and control exposure.
- Silence could use a duration increase to turns for a seperate buff to MS
Old effect identical + new effect turns/lvl +15MS
- Keep race options balanced and not too big!
- MS buffs for everyone and their grans! (Those granny slippers are silent as Snuggle a Bugbear especially when she throws em with precision at your face!)

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  • 7- Disguise
- Bluff:
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 19 Feats+ 14 Cha mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 2 Cleric Trickery domain+ 9 Warlock Night Hag = 127+D20
Feats:
SF Bluff (5), ESF Bluff (10), Epic Reputation (4)
Racial:
-3 (Firbolg, Ogre) +8 (Rakshasa)
Mastered average:
90+D20 (Changes from a average of +2 cha mod most using bluff aren't cha based, no epic rep due to feat issues, there is a higher gear point limit here 40 soft (gear, good hope), A good point to compare your own skill to)

-Preform:
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 21 Feats+ 14 Cha mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 2 Cleric Trickery domain = 120+D20
Feats:
SF Preform (5), ESF Preform (10), Epic Reputation (4), Artist (2)
Racial:
-3 (Firbolg, Ogre) +1 (Drow, fey, Gloaming, Green hag, Imp, Fey'ri)
Mastered average:
113+D20 (Changes from a average of +15 cha mod due to +2 cha mod, Usually no epir rep or artist, Bard song gear 50 softcap, A good point to compare your own skill to)

Notes:
Preform disguises are usually stronger due to more preform classes being Cha focussed (bards) and being more RP focussed builds. Stuff like Bluff Swashbucklers and such have much lower caps.
  • 8- Spot
Theoretical max:
33 Skill + 19 Feats+ 14 Wis mod+ 50 Skillcap+ 7 Ranger Favored enemy+ 9 Warlock Star = 132+D20
Feats:
SF Spot/L (5), ESF Spot/L (10), Alertness (2), Artist (2), Blooded (2)
Racial:
-5 (Firbolg, Half-Giant Fire/Frost/Storm, Ogre) +7 (Imp)
Mastered average:
98+D20 (Changes from a average of +1 Wis mod due to zoo buff on a 8 wis, no ranger no warlock, 40 soft (gear good hope, bard..), A good point to compare your own skill to)
Note:
This time for spot things are diffirent. With Clairvoyance not working vs disquises a cleric wisdom dedicated spotter with feats has better points to a dedicated bard spotter (15 wis +2 cleric but only 34 soft = 108+D20)
  • 9- Counterplay Disguise
This time due to there being two sources of Disguise and two main detector style's I'll keep it at a summary:
Bluff is not favored unless the char really efforts even Epic Rep, is Rakshasa etc. Where Preform is favored. In general according to classes frequency and such. Again a dedicated RP cleric spotter is an amazing counter and quite strong that the odds will be in his favor if he maxes out.

Disguises can be quite fun RP tools and are in a good state. Slightly OP on rakshasa (wich is why in some forums people are advocating them to get +12 this is not a good thing.) If your detected in stealth you can still run away with your identity and employers hidden. The one thing to note spot detects hiding and disguises. This while rare compounds the strength of cleric spot builds! Stop true seeing at doors get a spot cleric and be safe as Snuggle a Bugbear in your meetings :)

Not much to note here from my experience and my information from others disguise is quite ok. A bit worse for bluff disguises but because you cant nerf spot without buffing preform disguises the only thing that could be said is a small softcap buff of 2-4 points would make it perfect (right now bluff vs most spot bluff is 8 points behind putting it at 6-4 would be better.) Preform is slightly strong it could lose the same 2-4 points.

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  • 10- Tracks
A very fun thing a good addition to arelith!
First a few information mentions:
- Use -Investigate on quarter doors to spawn tracks if they been broken into! (Side note sleight of hand hides proof of break ins)
- Not everything is just a DC to beat some things require stuff like divination or favored enemy!
Tracks can hold many bits of information. This can be used to track and follow a player, find out information about said player to help identify or make a shortlist of suspects. Get informed on common paths such as what path does a UDer usually take to enter the surface at lets say barrowdeeps entry.

The information is hidden due to Hide MS and Bluff Preform vs Spot and Search with a whole lot of modifiers.
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Investigate

Notable points of interest are: (Hide details bonus means the soft of bluff and preform make it harder to find the details.)
- Exact Sub-Race: 30 + Hide Details Bonus. And needs Bane of Enemies with the target as a favored enemy or EPIC spell focus Divination!
- Attunement: Spell Focus Divination, 30 + Hide Details Bonus.
- Aspect: Greater Spell Focus Divination, 30 + Hide Details Bonus.

Got a quarter break and a list of suspects? Narrow it down!
Main protagonists in this field:
Rangers (find and hide), Divination (Spec, Greater, Epic), Clerics (Travel knowledge Trickery) And some wild/ sneaky races.

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  • 11- Languages
Languages matter allot. I hinted this before talking about a spy that can't listen can't spy.
With new races new languages and the quantity of int based, bards and such all mastering weird tongues there are a few points to be made:
- Languages are growing! Quantity. This inderectly weakens things like trying to be a linguist.
- Languages are being overused in weird ways. (Xana hin's just talking in it regularly to hide secrets)

A part of the problem is the misuse of language people are using them too frequently in situations where the character would not use it. Drow talking about the birds and the bees amongst eachother in Xana is normal. But people just talking in animal language about the bird and the bees is not! People don't respect the 'short languages' people dont respect what their char would feel like using. Unless they are making a obvious attempt at hiding information they shouldn't be doing it.

Suggestions? Add a language or 2 to everyone to pick to handle the growth of language. Preferably a logical language.
Drow - Orc Goblin,... They are in andunor they'd learn some of these.
Hin - Dwarf (alliance between brog and bendir) perhaps even elvish.
This is allot of work. Perhaps like random songs for human bards a race gets a random language at birth from a appropriate list.

- Shorten short languages.
Attack. Stop. Hide. Or hammer down on it. I dont want to see a full minute of people talking crap in the hub under ''''''' heh

People grow up and RP its ultimatly us doing it. Besides the growth of languages and the lack of learning its quite good.
Innate Andunor slaves and such NEED UNDERCOMMON xD fix it! Hah enough ranting with a joke :)

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  • 12- Quarters
Fun stuff! First. Quarter breaking is so much more than steal steal.
But I must first repeat:

!!! ONE ONE ITEM !!! for your char or group. No bags or containers a piece within it or empty it and just the container!
Breaking into two quarters does not mean an item per quarter. Its based on your char.

Now 127! Remember this number 127! A lock of a quarter a trap of a quarter the thoughness of a door is capped at 127. This is high very high but not unbeatable. Skills to consider:
- Hide MS: Get to the place of intrest unseen. Hide your tracks!
- Disguise Bluff preform: If seen hide who you are. Also hide details of your tracks.
- Open lock 127 to break in.
- Disarm trap 127 to not get holes in your body from traps.
(Side note its easyer to get open lock than disarm trap people dont skim on your trap dc's this mostly cause open lock is dex and disarm is int! For a sneak thats around 15 points just there!)
- Sleight of hand hides the Snuggle a Bugbear notice that the doors been tampered with!!! Important.

Open lock maths:

Gear:
Armor Rogue leather buff 5
Dungeon delvers cloak 4
Enchanted gloves of skill 3
Gear 2/piece
= 30 total

Solo mode
Skill33+Dice20+SF5+ESF10+Dex14+Gear30+Good hope2=114 at 38 dex. Always need a bard.
Bard mode
Skill33+Dice20+Dex14+Gear30+Bard20(21cap)=117 ESF needed minimally.
From this we can see that a build would need a Bard song and ESF Open lock unless they have access to old unobtainable items.
Trickery cleric domain can provide a extra +2 for a dip. And racial stats.

Disarm trap maths:

Gear:
Ten foot pole 5
Armor Rogues leather buff 10
Dungeon delvers cloak 4
Enchanted gloves of skill 3
Gear 2/piece
=38

Solo mode
Skill33+Dice20+SF5+ESF10+Int9+Gear38+Good hope2=117 at 28 INT. Always need a bard and this is high INT.
Bard mode
Skill33+Dice20+Int9+Gear38+Bard12(21cap)=112 ESF + SF needed Minimally and a int of 28 (12 soft +16 hard)
From this we can see that a build needs bard song SF and ESF but also a less optimal stat namely Int while sure 14 int isnt uncommon 16 is a bare minimum.
Trickery cleric domain can provide a extra +2 for a dip. And racial stats.

Ok now there is so much more. Leave notes threats. "Your not safe not even here you better listen to our demands or else."
Leave love notes: "I love you so much I'll break into your quarter while sleeping! So best be my wife or else."
Threatening love notes are the best. Steal a book or marked item one with allot of fluff text. Hide it in someone else's chest!

But all this will be naught if they see. Oh my quarter door has been messed with. In comes SLEIGHT OF HAND.
One thing people seem to miss is sleight of hand hides these notifications! Underrated skill

How about this you know of a factions gathering place. You know they'll have a meeting at time X. Sneaking in with them is the most active time for True sight. Sneak in before them! Hide in the Quarter. Have a lens ready hope they dont tele ward. Hah.
Break in during a meeting has an issue. Most even big Snuggle a Bugbear guild quarters special places have only one way in. Some are better and have multiple. But even then doors are noisy and open. Multiple ways in but all of them can be seen from one central spot?

My hints but this is allot of work on our team of GODS :) redesigning. Ways in through climb that are silent and teleport you in? Multiple doors. The option when picking the lock to open it normally for you and your henchmen or an option after the lock is picked to instead silent open it. It then teleports you alone inside as if you only opened the door partially and silently. The doors are too OP. Nerf em to the GROUND.

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  • 13- Buffs under stealth
Do buffs reveal you? Does bard song make noise,...
I checked a series of usefull buffs and added the results below.
TLDR: NO Silence! Bard song can be used but keep party members close.

Stat enhancing:
Zoo buffs - No effects - Hours/LvL
Aura of Glory - No effects - Turns/LvL (Usefull for bumping cha for disguise)
Skeens - No effects - (Dont actually know duration)

Spot/Listen enhancing:
Amplify - No effects - Turns/LvL
Clair/Clair - No effects - Rounds/LvL
Good Hope - No effects - Turns/LvL

Vision:
See invis - No effects - Turns/LvL
Ultravision - No effects - Hours/LvL
True Seeing - No effects - A few rounds

Hide/MS enhancing
Camouflage - No effects - 10 Turns/LvL
Good Hope - No effects - Turns/LvL
One With the Land - No effects - Hours/LvL
Silence - CIRCLE EFFECT - Rounds/LvL (could have been useful to counter Listen)
Invis and Imp invis - No effects - Rounds/LvL
Rogue's Cunning - No effects - 5 Turns

Utility
Freedom of movement - No effects - Turns/LvL (If detected has some CC protection and movespeed)
Haste - No effects - Rounds/LvL (Speedyboy)

Bard song
Doesnt reveal no notes no sounds with 1 exception.
If someone that recieves your bard song (party member) exits and enters the range that white effect does get revealed and audio.
Keep close to party members then its fine.

Note things like extend spell and pure caster classes can give even rounds/LvL better durations.
Bards have auto extend under the custom feat unremitting cadence.
Rounds/LvL x30 x2 = 60 rounds so 6 minutes
Turns/LvL x30 x2 = 60 turns so 1 hour
Best bard song duration is 15 minutes

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  • 14- Stealth can be RP
One thing i'll make a subsection for and a quick repeat.
Stealth play is not just griefing. Rules like pick pocket limitations steal limitations already make it less about loot.

Yes stealth can be used in combat but thats a subthing and isnt about 110+ sneaks but 80's sneaks vs 0's spot listen.
Its their stick and your saying you have your pants down vs it. And even then they need to corner sneak.
DONT FOLLOW EM TO CORNERS xD

This entire thing is to inform people about numbers, new ways of RP and play using stealth. Options options!
A few suggestions peppered in for the powers to be cause hell we can try right. And a big place to discuss stealth plays.
I am not the master of it. The community at large will have more ideas that will help give you tools and ideas to add to the vibrant RP. Antagonists unite hatch your plans and execute them, detectives put on your hats and find out the truth of the matter!

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  • 15- Final thoughts
Thought 1: This will be a never ending thing what have I done to myself!
Thought 2: This is fun!

With all the suggestions, broken stuff, bad points being levied it will sometimes be thought the system is bad.
No the system is good GREAT even the things the power to be have added to the game expanding on the mechanics things like tracks,.... Its amazing! We just like to talk about it and imagine the possibility's.

With that a big thanks to the powers to be not just related to sneaking but for the offer of such a great server.
They interact with us they talk they listen. Their posts can be funny as Snuggle a Bugbear too! (Looking at you Grumpycat)
They give us new toys even now people are working on lag, new classes, bug fixes,...

Thank you oh great powers! For all the work!

And the players. Without your plans to conquer district X or make town X into a new drawven fort cause dwarf way is right way!
There is no motion, no antagonists, no action and most of all nothing to spy on! Make your secrets make your plans and I'll steal the intel! Thanks all for the RP
Last edited by Eldariash on Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:12 am, edited 18 times in total.

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Re: Testpost Stealth compedium

Post by Ork » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:28 am

This is great except hide/ms is also +d20.

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Re: Testpost Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:42 am

Fixing it in a moment i'll add the variance to the % so gimme a moment to calc all die rolls

Edit completed

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Re: Testpost Stealth compedium

Post by Mattamue » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:22 pm

Also, one thing I noticed, dust of silence rogue grenade is +10 ms and it lasts turns/rogue level.

Otherwise, love the intention and attention to detail in the post. Will be thinking about this for sure.

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Re: Testpost Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:14 pm

You are right and there are many buffs that will change your numbers from the average but the average is just a point you'd want to reach as a minimum and subjective. Be glad that the grenades can increase the softcap to the 50's.

But they are locked under grenades and as such pure rogue levels as is bard song to bards. I added things that could be scrolled and such used by many. (Non rogues non bards, for example.) Your own class design may add to these numbers improving your odds :)

Edit: I'll be in the editor this evening trying to finish and then format the above post so be tuned i'll reply when I'm done with the changes!

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:09 pm

The stealth compedium has been completed.
I will always update it with changes, new information and work on lay out.
But the work is done the post is finished!

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:16 am

This is great. Would just like to add that silence doesn't work so great on Arelith. People can still see your aura and will metagame it. Sad reality.

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:32 pm

Good point aura's and effects I should research those will probably do some PGCC testing on various.

Like bard song into stealth
Silence
Invis and other buffs and lingering effects after stealth,...

I'll compile a list of stuff i'll test and once done add my findings to the post above.
Anyone have ideas for things I should test do mention it helps me compile the list.

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 am

Updated with open lock disarm trap maths.
Find it under Quarter.
At first I didnt add this but its been requested by a few.

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Sandrow » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:59 am

If search is needed to find out the trap, search math should be added here, too.

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Eldariash » Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:09 am

Sandrow wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:59 am
If search is needed to find out the trap, search math should be added here, too.
Door traps do not use search so its just for traps in the wild that you'd need it.

Did my buff check. I'll add it to the above post but also report it here.
First there are many buffs I did not test them all but considered the useful ones.

Stat enhancing:
Zoo buffs - No effects - Hours/LvL
Aura of Glory - No effects - Turns/LvL (Usefull for bumping cha for disguise)
Skeens - No effects - (Dont actually know duration)

Spot/Listen enhancing:
Amplify - No effects - Turns/LvL
Clair/Clair - No effects - Rounds/LvL
Good Hope - No effects - Turns/LvL

Vision:
See invis - No effects - Turns/LvL
Ultravision - No effects - Hours/LvL
True Seeing - No effects - A few rounds

Hide/MS enhancing
Camouflage - No effects - 10 Turns/LvL
Good Hope - No effects - Turns/LvL
One With the Land - No effects - Hours/LvL
Silence - CIRCLE EFFECT - Rounds/LvL (could have been useful to counter Listen)
Invis and Imp invis - No effects - Rounds/LvL
Rogue's Cunning - No effects - 5 Turns

Utility
Freedom of movement - No effects - Turns/LvL (If detected has some CC protection and movespeed)
Haste - No effects - Rounds/LvL (Speedyboy)

Bard song
Doesnt reveal no notes no sounds with 1 exception.
If someone that recieves your bard song (party member) exits and enters the range that white effect does get revealed and audio.
Keep close to party members then its fine.

Note things like extend spell and pure caster classes can give even rounds/LvL better durations.
Bards have auto extend under the custom feat unremitting cadence.
Rounds/LvL x30 x2 = 60 rounds so 6 minutes
Turns/LvL x30 x2 = 60 turns so 1 hour
Best bard song duration is 15 minutes

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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Sandrow » Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:56 pm

Eldariash wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:09 am
As mentioned in wiki
"If the door is trapped, the trap will spring every time that you attempt to open the door. With enough point in Search, the option to disable the trap will appear in the prompted menu. This will require, as well, Disable Trap ranks."

If so, search is needed

Sombricimos
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Sombricimos » Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:52 pm

I did not seen any mention of the "Detect" mode toggle, so I'll a bit with a link.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Detect

On this page you'll see that there's actually a huge gap between passive and active detection

Active detection is enabled when :
- Character has the Keen sense feat. Not a selectable feat on lv up, it's only granted to certain races or classes
- Character is standing still (No need to toggle detect mode when standing still, I just learned that today)
- Character has the Detect mode toggled on

When not in active detection, the roll for spot/listen is actually (skill/2) + d10, compared to full skill +d20 when in active!
It is a big deal considering that rolls to detect a stealther are made five times per second.

According to that source as well, it has an influence on the radius to detect traps and the frequency at which rolls are made to detect traps.

That's all I had to add to this

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Flower Power
Posts: 448
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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Flower Power » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:37 am

Your detection skills being halved when out of Detect Mode is the big reason why, outside of encountering Elves or Rogues, the larger bonuses Detection skills seem to get over stealth skills aren't actually as impactful as it might seem.

When coupled with Arelith-specific changes (TS being short duration, loss of TS on Polymorph Self; easy access to substantial movement speed boosts for stealthers through Rogue/Ranger bonuses or the ubiquity of Haste), that substantial nerf to movement speed when in Detect Mode is why - in practice - stealth is pretty substantially favored over detection - unless you're an elf or a rogue, the sneak has an easy time of schmoovin' on away from you the moment you hobble yourself to try to detect them.
what would fred rogers do?

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Hazard
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Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Hazard » Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:49 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:37 am
Your detection skills being halved when out of Detect Mode is the big reason why, outside of encountering Elves or Rogues, the larger bonuses Detection skills seem to get over stealth skills aren't actually as impactful as it might seem.

When coupled with Arelith-specific changes (TS being short duration, loss of TS on Polymorph Self; easy access to substantial movement speed boosts for stealthers through Rogue/Ranger bonuses or the ubiquity of Haste), that substantial nerf to movement speed when in Detect Mode is why - in practice - stealth is pretty substantially favored over detection - unless you're an elf or a rogue, the sneak has an easy time of schmoovin' on away from you the moment you hobble yourself to try to detect them.
I think that if a stealth build is fleeing because you could otherwise detect it, that's not 'substantially favored over detection' that's you winning. You won. You beat them and they're going away and can't spy on you. If you were to catch them, they're going to die because they're a stealth build.

This sounds like a good thing to me. You totally countered them.

Yvesza
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:35 am

Re: Stealth compedium

Post by Yvesza » Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:21 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:37 am
Your detection skills being halved when out of Detect Mode is the big reason why, outside of encountering Elves or Rogues, the larger bonuses Detection skills seem to get over stealth skills aren't actually as impactful as it might seem.

When coupled with Arelith-specific changes (TS being short duration, loss of TS on Polymorph Self; easy access to substantial movement speed boosts for stealthers through Rogue/Ranger bonuses or the ubiquity of Haste), that substantial nerf to movement speed when in Detect Mode is why - in practice - stealth is pretty substantially favored over detection - unless you're an elf or a rogue, the sneak has an easy time of schmoovin' on away from you the moment you hobble yourself to try to detect them.
It's also very worth noting that the duration on TS doesn't matter, you use it when you want to make sure you're not being spied on.
The argument about detect mode isn't very good either really, if you're not in detect mode you're running and the stealth build can't keep up with you really. Stealth needs to beat detection every single round but detection only need to win *once* for the stealth build to be outed, it's very much in favour of the one detecting.

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