Hating on the new gold system.

[yellowcateyes]

How to divide the loot, and disputes over shares, should be an intrinsic hook for roleplay when putting together an adventuring group.

[Hunter548]

Why should the mega-rich trading coster lower its prices to suit the adventurer plebian classes?

Because they want to sell things? Unless they've got other means of making that wealth and or have no expenses (Like tax on a shop or a quarter) they're going to need money coming into their accounts.

[Ecstatic]

I suspect there are some players / some shop owners that do not frequent the forums and are not even aware of any change in the gold drops. Certain raw ingredient prices, by way of example, have caused me to raise my eyebrows at the posted price.

The incentives to lower prices are also slight. A handful of gold is going to keep your character fed and watered indefinitely. Characters don't starve to death. Why should the mega-rich trading coster lower its prices to suit the adventurer plebian classes?

Because the notion that, in a free exchange of goods and/or serices, the producer alone is responsible for the price at which an exchange takes place is the worst and the most egregiously incorrect theory to be proposed in the entire field of Economics in the entire time the subject has been studied. Goods will only move at a price at which both the buyer and seller feel they are better off making the exchange. Anyone that is unwilling to adapt their prices will eventually get priced out of market.

[Daedin]

I would just like to point out that shop management/economic management also falls under the Be Nice rule..and all the other Arelithian rules that promote fair and, more importantly, good willed interactions between players (not characters).

That isn't to say people should just start giving stuff away for free, nor that they do not have the freedom to put whatever prices they want.

It is just, simply,always good to keep in mind that we're not playing an economic sim or a civ game.

[The Rambling Midget]

On top of that, I think that the economy would greatly benefit from a bit more morbid fatalism on the buyer's part. Literally, every character is constantly two inches from death on this island, even in the "safety" of a city. Is it really necessary for your level seven character to wait a month for a better deal on a steel weapon, just to avoid dipping into their hundred thousand gp emergency fund?

There will always be more gold. It's okay to splurge. Death could be, and probably is, waiting around the next corner.

[Ecstatic]

I would just like to point out that shop management/economic management also falls under the Be Nice rule..and all the other Arelithian rules that promote fair and, more importantly, good willed interactions between players (not characters).

That isn't to say people should just start giving stuff away for free, nor that they do not have the freedom to put whatever prices they want.

It is just, simply,always good to keep in mind that we're not playing an economic sim or a civ game.

This rule applies to player, not character actions.

You can be nice as a player without playing a nice character, so I have to strongly disagree with the notion that high prices are, in any fashion, an act of an un-nice player. If your character wants to charge exorbitant prices, go for it. Neither I, nor any other player is entitled to your stuff at any price but the one that your character feels is appropriate. This one can be handled entirely IC without any sort of nasty implication that a player of a character who charges exorbitant prices is somehow un-nice.

If someone charges a price your character finds too high, your character may try to haggle them down or find another source. If every character on the server shares that opinion, the producer will not sell the product. If the producer finds someone that is willing to pay that price however, then it is indeed a fair price, in the eyes of both characters involved.

Will most if my characters let themselves be haggled down? Yes.

Am I not being a nice guy OOC if my character decides not to? Or if my character will only drop the price so far? Or hell, even if he decides, for IC reasons to add a 50% "I hate you" (in a strictly IC fashion, of course) tax? Personally, I don't think I am.

[The Rambling Midget]

You can be nice as a player without playing a nice character, so I have to strongly disagree with the notion that high prices are, in any fashion, an act of an un-nice player. If your character wants to charge exorbitant prices, go for it.

I agree with this up to the point where a player is simply wasting a shop by setting prices so high that nothing ever sells. That's what storage chests are for. It's surprisingly difficult to take a shop away from someone in Cordor, which is where the majority of such offenses occur.

[Ecstatic]

Yeah, agreed there. That's a whole separate kettle of fish from someone RPing a ruthless merchant character, though, because everyone knows the profit you get from trying to sell +1 maces for 15k each is 0 GP. It happens, it's regrettable, and it makes me want to play a Waukeenar blackguard when I see it: Profitable trade, or else.

[IndifferentPerson]

Waukeenar blackguard, omg. Do it.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I hope no one minds me saying this: but disatisfaction with economics and the trade status quo is an area ripe for IC roleplay exploration and change. If it interests your character, or your character has an opinion - why not voice it, and see what happens? Just make it fun...

[Winter83]

Haha, I remember my old character when the old system was working, wanted to get into a trade union to increase the price of every smithing wares, and smash those up who'd not oblige.
Back then there was discussion about how cheap everything is, and friends giving out freebies. *grumble mumble*
But it brought a nice roleplay situation.

[The Man of the Moon]

The new system is not nice cause we get LESS gold (ZERO, nothing when we have greedy fellows, 1/2 if we are sharing in a two members team, 1/3 if this is a three members party, etc)

but

Is 100% more accurated in realistic and RP meanings.

Trade balance will progresively matching the new gold ratios and this is right aswell in RP and realism meanings... like happens after economical crisis.

[Elven Seraphim]

Keep in mind that we still have the improved system on the Fixed Level Server.

[Razmo_de]

Because the notion that, in a free exchange of goods and/or serices, the producer alone is responsible for the price at which an exchange takes place is the worst and the most egregiously incorrect theory to be proposed in the entire field of Economics in the entire time the subject has been studied. Goods will only move at a price at which both the buyer and seller feel they are better off making the exchange. Anyone that is unwilling to adapt their prices will eventually get priced out of market.

Hah, ecstatic. That would be true if it was indeed the best way to get gold. See, the buyer has to 'compete' with the option of the seller to solo-grind instead of producing and running a shop. Which, when applied economically, would raise the sellers prices though the roof. Running a shop is mostly charity.

In the new system, you need to manage your resources. No more blowing off wands and potions and the like. And if you are short on gold, solo some places, where you need few supplies. Partying up in large parties everytime is going to net you not that much gold.

[The Man of the Moon]

Because the notion that, in a free exchange of goods and/or serices, the producer alone is responsible for the price at which an exchange takes place is the worst and the most egregiously incorrect theory to be proposed in the entire field of Economics in the entire time the subject has been studied. Goods will only move at a price at which both the buyer and seller feel they are better off making the exchange. Anyone that is unwilling to adapt their prices will eventually get priced out of market.

Hah, ecstatic. That would be true if it was indeed the best way to get gold. See, the buyer has to 'compete' with the option of the seller to solo-grind instead of producing and running a shop. Which, when applied economically, would raise the sellers prices though the roof. Running a shop is mostly charity.

In the new system, you need to manage your resources. No more blowing off wands and potions and the like. And if you are short on gold, solo some places, where you need few supplies. Partying up in large parties everytime is going to net you not that much gold.

And I think this is the worst part of this matter: The need to go alone to get gold, while before there were more parties = more RP fun.

Just this is the ONLY ONE situation that makes me think the other system with gold for everyone was better... Cause allowed to let all the team emmbers get the same gold and then, the groups were not disencouraged.

Old system: + grinding teams - greedy troubles.
New system: - teams' time + greedy troubles.

[IndifferentPerson]

I remember the days the current system was "old" and the pick up gold was "new".

[The Man of the Moon]

I remember the days the current system was "old" and the pick up gold was "new".

So right...

Then...

"Everyone get's gold" system= Positive team enforcement & less greedyness but less realism & RP.

vs.

"First one looting get's gold" system= Negative team enforcement & More Greedyness but more realism & RP.

Those who already made good gold with rich and wealthy bank accounts, will stay rich...
Those with problems with earning gold will now require SOLO or Couples to FARM gold (farming is the Nemesis of RP since it usually reduces pure RP plots that people is free to do when they don't need to farm gold.

There will be exceptions to this, of course, but I am talking about a tendence.

[Winter83]

I am still doing fine with the ammount of gold, without soloing much. (save those on-the-road mobs of CR 3). Tons of money from resources. From gold necklaces and boss heads.
Unless you are pouring gold into wands and basins, I do not see what is demanding more from you.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

The problem I have seen with this and its ability to cause roleplay is that you cant tell if you are being cheated. When the loot guy divides everything there is no way you can tell if he is dividing it evenly. In life you could try and read his face, look and see if his gold pouch has more. You could attempt to see all of the things he was picking up and guess on its value when sold. You cant do any of that on Arelith.

All that we know is "this guy is grabbing things." You cant tell what was grabbed or if he is trying to put some coins in a personal pouch vs a group one. I believe it adds the perception of RP without actually doing so.

I personally would prefer the old system and if the gold was too much then you could attempt to alter the values.

[IndifferentPerson]

Branding a system positive or negative is a bit biased

It will take a while for gold to stabilize, as old chars die out/gold is spent and new chars are made. Just like when gold sky rocketted.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Still don't understand how this encourages solo'ing.

It's irrefutable that the most profitable goods come from the rarest resources which are in places that require a party to get to.

Don't see where solo'ing fits into that.

[DestroyerOTN]

Still don't understand how this encourages solo'ing.

It's irrefutable that the most profitable goods come from the rarest resources which are in places that require a party to get to.

Don't see where solo'ing fits into that.

Personally? I still use parties, yes. Parties still have their place and there are ways to justify them, but one needs to level with perspective in this case. The "other side opinion" remains valid the way intended.

The premise of idea is that you can now effectively do, say, the driders alone a few times over (or go down the other direction to the Kuo-Toan temple (speak of, why -are- there so many temples in the underdark as places to kill stuff anyway?)) to gather the same amount as going into the adjacent temple in a well-set, harder to organize, harder to assemble, even -harder- to ensure actually getting the coin from (at an IC perspective) party.

... the same is comparably true of the bramble in cordor and the near goblin fort.

Or the gnolls of minmir and minmir manor

Or foofy and his brood of orcs along the howling pass as opposed to the talassian temple

or... well, you get it.

Repitition and being alone can easily attain more gold with less effort and greater garuntee. Shortchanging others remains the nicest you could hope for from someone with a bit of IC greed to RP, the worst being getting killed at the end or not even see a coin. If your character cares even moderately of gold, this is probably important to them... so is it to you OOC if you need to get the next item up the rung. A thing to consider. XP isn't a factor here. Assume XP means nothing to your character IC. It doesn't exist. You simply decide to incorporate new tactics as you move. If your -justification- for leaving town is -statedly- gold, what reason is there now?

To the end of actually partying, with such said in theory, if the guy in your party that decides to gather coin is CE, CN, or NE (you probably don't know); you're probably not seeing a coin. Or at least less. If they're a bad RPer or need the coin (shy of, in such the case, being -mechanically- good), alignment may not even be a telling filter there. The fear likely lies on encouragement of cliques as much as anything, where only people who are consistently socialized in groups that specifically go to kill stuff and split the loot over RPing will ever really garuntee anything. If you're using that "sign out in cordor" method, i've got bad news for you buddy.

Personally, my "be nice" rule extention of this on Stormwind lies that I -will- rip you off, yes... though negligibly. Why? She's not lawful, and she's of no kindness to heart. Though, if questioned, she -will- probably cough up the rest... this isn't to say that your character should know every coin she withholds. Nor is it to say that everyone does this, and that the "ripoff" is as negligible as the few hundred I do.

This puts to question the fact that the playerbase simply can not be trusted at large to be the favorable end of the spectrum for their alignment or character, as well as what is "good RP" and what is simply cheeseball by server law. If you're not good, you probably associate with people that'll hog. If you're good, you'd be wrong to be hounding the gold anyway. What then?

My two cents on what they mean. Someone slap me if I receive that argument wrong.

[P Three]

Yeah...no. Sorry, but no. The new system is 100% geared toward soloing, period. I absolutely hate having dirt-poor chars because they -can't- solo and everyone else in the group gets the gold and doesn't share. And yeah, you can say "Well, don't travel with them next time" but that's still four hours of grinding that I absolutely despise on a -good- day, let alone an average crappy day, for zero reward, which only makes -me- less likely to grind any more.

When gold is harder to come by, it rather shockingly doesn't make people more inclined to work together to get more. It makes them take as much as they can, as often as they can.

[Marsi]

If you feel entitled to wealth, learn to be useful to the player-base and you'll start to see money come your way.

If you're worried about greedy characters hogging the adventure gold, assign a trusted "looter". If they do the ol' log-offeroo without roleplay, report them. In all my time RPing on NWN servers, it happened once, and it has never occurred on Arelith.

Adventuring has never been a smart way to make money.

Realise that in-game money isn't worth worrying so much over. I've had a max-level character with 10k in the bank most of the time. Being poor isn't that bad, and it can be a great factor for character development and roleplay.

[IndifferentPerson]

You can still make money if you make smart use of the resources given to you, jewelry drops, leader heads(with high persuade), good use of craft resources, etc.