ninja build

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frightnight
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ninja build

Post by frightnight » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:14 pm

I could use some advice for a ninja concept I want to play on a level 20 cap server..for when im not playing arelith ;)

the build spread I had initially thought of consisted of 15 ftr/3 monk/2 assassin

*15 ftr levels are required to unlock 2 server specific feats unique to fighters...a blink attack in which you teleport 15m to hostile target and attack..and cloak of shadows...neg energy burst,darkness vfx,blind all enemies, and invis

*3 monk to help reach 10 APR,10% speed increase,still mind

*2 assassin for death attack.use poison(rp) and uncanny dodge I

my basic idea is that if I reach 10 APR I'll have 4 death attacks on the first flurry..even if the save is a pitiful 17 they have to roll 4 times giving me a 20% chance on paralysis...i can always disengage and return..attack again..rinse and repeat....with 18 BAB i'll have no trouble in combat as well (so i think).. and with the monk speed boost I can outrun most advesaries to escape ensuing PvP...use poison for rp..and uncanny dodge to retain dex bonus to AC


with the 14 death attacks does that mean in the first flurry I'll have 14 attacks? will the BAB be enough to land quite a few attacks?

and would taking more monk and assassin foregoing fighter and shooting for 10 APR and hopes of autohitting with 4 high damage death attacks be a better idea?
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Re: ninja build

Post by The Man of the Moon » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:00 pm

EDIT.
NWN Wiki wrote:A flurry is effectively the smallest unit of time used by Neverwinter Nights, as far as players are concerned. Each flurry lasts two seconds, so there are three flurries in a round. All combat actions taken in a single flurry are essentially resolved simultaneously. In particular, all attack rolls for a given flurry are resolved before the damage from those attacks is calculated and applied. (This is known to reduce the importance of initiative.)

Due to game engine limitations, the maximum number of attacks per flurry by a single character is 5, which translates into 15 attacks per round. This is sufficient most of the time since a character can have at most 10 normal attacks per round. However bonus attacks, such as a cleave attack or an attack of opportunity, can meet or even exceed this game engine limitation.

Attacks per round are distributed as evenly as possible among the three flurries in a round, as shown in the following table.
NWN Wiki wrote:Death Attack
Specifics: At first level, an assassin may use a death attack, which functions similarly to a sneak attack in that if the target is not in combat they become victim to the death attack. The successful attack forces the target to make a fortitude save or become paralyzed. Even if they succeed with the saving throw they still suffer +1d6 points of damage in addition to the normal damage the attack caused. This damage increases to 2d6 at level 3, 3d6 at level 5, 4d6 at level 7, and 5d6 at level 9.
Use: automatic

Notes:
Death attacks are made whenever an assassin would qualify for a sneak attack, regardless of the target's combat state. (If an assassin also has a sneak attack, the game only reports "sneak attack" to the player.) In particular, death attacks can be made with ranged weapons if within 30 feet of the target.
All death attacks deal bonus damage, but not all death attacks trigger a paralysis save.
The bonus damage stacks with that for sneak attacks, including the blackguard's sneak attack.
As with sneak attacks, the bonus damage is not multiplied in the case of a critical hit.

A death attack only triggers a paralysis save if the target is not engaged in combat, as per this feat's description.
As all attacks in a flurry are effectively simultaneous, there will be a saving throw for each attack in the opening flurry of combat.
The difficulty class of the saving throw is 10 + assassin level + intelligence modifier.
This will apply triggering the paralyzing attack on your enemy as far as he still out of combat.

I guess you will deliver four death attacks before the combat starts for your foe after your surprise flurry of four (the "first attack").
NWN WIki wrote:the only way you are going to paralyze someone with death attack is if your target is flat-footed.
NWN Wiki wrote: Flat-footed:
A character or creature that is caught unawares or otherwise unprepared is considered to be flat-footed. A flat-footed character loses his dexterity, dodge, and tumble bonuses (but not the penalty for a negative dexterity modifier) to armor class (AC) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, cannot make a defensive roll, and cannot deflect arrows. Furthermore, flat-footed characters are candidates for a sneak attack or death attack. The uncanny dodge and defensive awareness feats allow retention of the dexterity AC bonus when flat-footed, but dodge and tumble bonuses are still lost (as is the ability to make attacks of opportunity, etc.).

A character will be considered flat-footed if attacked by an unseen creature, unless the attacker is heard and the character has the blind fight feat. Being unseen can be the result of blindness, darkness, invisibility, stealth, or (for NPC perceivers) coming around a corner without time for the perception event to fire (a window of at most four seconds). In other circumstances, a character is flat-footed when doing none of the following: attacking (melee or ranged), moving, or casting a spell, feat, or special ability.

In particular, the following conditions preclude those three activities, so effectively cause one to be flat-footed: entangled, stunned, paralyzed, petrified, prone, and sleeping. Furthermore, an empty action queue can cause a character to become flat-footed as soon as they finish moving or casting a spell; after an attack, doing nothing does not cause a character to become flat-footed until a few seconds have passed (indicated visually by equipped weapons returning to their default pose, such as resting on a shoulder for two-handed weapons).
My guess is:

First: You deliver your ten attacks:

1st flurry (4 attacks if you reached 10 per round): Applies death attack triggering paralize.
2nd flurry (3 attacks if "): Don't apply the paralyze but applies the +1d6
3rd flurry (3 attacks if "): Don't apply the paralyze but applies the +1d6

If I am not wrong, your npc foe will riposte starting at your second flurry, after or before depending the initiative.
NWN WIki wrote:Non-playable creatures when ambushed in the first round will repay attack immediately when they are hit no matter of initiative. Due to this fact, their attack flurry may overlap with player and they will attack before player's flurry apply damage, so even if the first flurry should kill them they will be still able to harm character attacking this way.

However the surprise moment applies only for first round. In subsequent round, the initiative start flurries for both creatures arranged per initiative. Flurries in subsequent round doesn't overlap - each flurry will trigger actual damage before creature with lower initiative start her flurry giving the initiative real effect.
Last edited by The Man of the Moon on Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: All what I write are simple opinions of a player and always with honest intention to contribute constructively and from respect, but with a poor knowledge of English.

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Re: ninja build

Post by The Man of the Moon » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:41 pm

Hope this may clarify something to you... To me did it... I went into this as I wanted to learn about aswell...
Disclaimer: All what I write are simple opinions of a player and always with honest intention to contribute constructively and from respect, but with a poor knowledge of English.

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Lorkas
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Re: ninja build

Post by Lorkas » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:41 am

Just so you're aware, you can never reach 10 APR in NWN without haste (at least, not without haks).

With your stated build, as a base you'll have 6 main-hand attacks and 2 off-hand attacks if you dual-wield kamas and have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

To those 8 standard attacks you can add 1 with Flurry of Blows and 1 with Haste.

At times when you do have both haste and FoB on, you will have 4 attacks in your first flurry and they will indeed all trigger a paralysis roll for your foe (and deal +1d6 damage). Otherwise you'll have 3 first-flurry attacks and your foe will have to roll 3 fort saves.

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Re: ninja build

Post by The Man of the Moon » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:24 am

Lorkas wrote:Just so you're aware, you can never reach 10 APR in NWN without haste (at least, not without haks).

With your stated build, as a base you'll have 6 main-hand attacks and 2 off-hand attacks if you dual-wield kamas and have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

To those 8 standard attacks you can add 1 with Flurry of Blows and 1 with Haste.

At times when you do have both haste and FoB on, you will have 4 attacks in your first flurry and they will indeed all trigger a paralysis roll for your foe (and deal +1d6 damage). Otherwise you'll have 3 first-flurry attacks and your foe will have to roll 3 fort saves.
?

I believe you can with a build where you invested some monk levels and many fighter / ranger / paladin / barbarian levels to reach an AB that gives you 6 attacks per round... And I believe this is not a hack.

If his BAB reaches 19 (as a 19 fighter/1 monk, 18-2, 17-3 or even 16-4) he would
have the maximum number of attacks possible in the game.

19/1 = 19 BAB
18/2 = 19 BAB
17/3 = 19 BAB
16/4 = 19 BAB

With this progression chart for monks...
+19/+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1

Taking any more than 4 monk levels will kill that 7th attack.


That and:

Flurry monk feat: +1
Haste: +1
dual-wielding kama's +1
with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat: +1

6+1+1+1+1=... 10 attacks per round.
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Re: ninja build

Post by Lorkas » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:55 am

Monks never receive a 7th (main-hand) attack, even though the attack schedule suggests they would get one more at +19 BAB.

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Re: ninja build

Post by The Man of the Moon » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:51 am

Lorkas wrote:Monks never receive a 7th (main-hand) attack, even though the attack schedule suggests they would get one more at +19 BAB.
I got a monk getting that once... I might like to test it on Arelith then some day.

But I am pretty sure some did it already...I believe we had someone with an evil infernalist elf who tried exactly that some months ago.


So, if the question applies in a server where that 7th attack was allowed (via haks or whatever), then still...

If nope...then I believe the first flurry will deal 3 attacks
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Re: ninja build

Post by frightnight » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:36 pm

lorkas can you explain builds which go for max APR (10 or so) and dont worry so much about AB as much...and hope for autohitting ?
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Re: ninja build

Post by Lorkas » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:01 pm

Here is a list of the requirements for reaching 10 APR (all must be true to have 10 attacks per round, which is the highest attainable without haks):
1) 1 or more monk level(s)
2) +16 BAB or higher by level 20
3) Dual-wield kamas
4) Improved Two-Weapon fighting
5) Flurry of Blows activated
6) Haste

Most of those are straightforward. Fighter 15/Monk 3/Assassin 2 would have +18 BAB at level 20, so you'd be able to get 10 attacks per round with that build as long as you make sure that you achieve #3-6 above.

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Re: ninja build

Post by frightnight » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:30 pm

what about 10 ASN/9 FTR/1 MNK....can you tell me what my chances look like of succeeding on autohits hoping to force 1 rolls?
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Re: ninja build

Post by miesny_jez » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:32 am

Hi frighnight.. mind if I jump in

Both Monk and Assasin are 3/4 BaB progression classes - meaning if You are interested in getting as much AB as possible from a mix of them (added to a third full-BaB class) You should aim for a mix of those classes which would sum into 4s.

Meaning mechanically (BaB - wise) it would be better to have a mix in sort of:
a) 8 Assasin + 4 Monk = 12 (3*4)
b) 4 Assasin + 4 Monk = 8 (2*4)

Your original build in a 20 level cap would give You the following
15 BaB - from 15 Fighter levels (full BaB class)
3 BaB - from the 3/2 mix of medium BaB classes

Total BaB = 18

What is worth to point out that the 3 Monk + 2 Assasin = 5 so an unoptimal amount of 3/4 classes. And a low DC on the Death Attack. If You are going for 10 APR build I would REALLY consider putting some more Assasin levels in there for higher DC.

In case of Your second proposed 10Assasin/9Ftr/1 Mnk

You would have the following:
9 BaB from Ftr
7 BaB from Assasin
0 BaB from Monk

Total = 16 BaB (still 10 attacks with double-kama) giving You a difference of -2 BaB to Your original build.

So as for the answer to Your question: It wouldn't make a large difference -2 BaB would lead to 10% more misses then from Your original build. Remember You would be mostly flanking Your enemy (I hope so) or attack from unseen leading to a +2 Ab.
Unless You go drop the Ab by something like 3+ points don't concern Yourself with it. In my honest opinion if the server is balanced for level 20 it shouldn't make such a big difference

Another factor worth taking into account is the spell saves progression for those classes.
Fighter = Fortitude primary
Assasin = Reflex
Monk = All

Clearly the Monk is the winner here as it gives bonusses to all saves. So I would aim rather for something like this:
A) Monk 4/ Assasin 7/ Fighter (OR RANGER!) 9 - BaB 17, Saves: 15/11/11 (Fort/Will/Reflex)
B) Monk 4/ Assasin 10/ Fighter 7 - BaB 16, Saves: 15/11/12 (Fort/Will/Reflex)

compared to:

1) Monk 2/Assasin 3/ Fighter 15 - BaB 18, Saves: 16/11/10
2) Monk 1/Assasin 10/Fighter - BaB 16, Saves: 14/10/11

In my honest opinion the most optimal build in this case would be the
Monk 4/ Assasin 7/ Fighter (OR RANGER!) 9 - BaB 17, Saves: 15/11/11

It gives You a reasonable BaB (17) and good saves with fortitude being the strongest one. As a bonus You can take Ranger in that setup (STRONGLY ADVISED) with (+2) Favoured enemy bonus, +4 hide/move silently in outside areas, Ranger spells lvl 2, better skills (including qualifiers for Assasin) and in-built dual wield feats, at the cost of 3 bonus feats (which You would have to use anyway on the dual-wield feats - an overall gain I would say unless the server mechanics dictate otherwise.


But my question to You is why do You not consider a Shadowdancer? Ninja screams to me SHADOWDANCER like nothing else really.

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Re: ninja build

Post by Thake » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:11 pm

In this specific case, Ranger is a better choice than Fighter. By far.

And the most optimal build for what you seek (engine wise) is the build miesny just pointed you out:
Monk 4/ Assasin 7/ Ranger 9



What I'd roll with (Ok-ish AB, nice Paralysis DC, OK-ish saves)

Stat spread of 9 / 16 / 8 / 17 / 14 / 8
Ending with 9 / 18 / 8 / 20 / 14 / 8

Feat: Luck of Heroes, Iron Will, Fav enemy (player races), SF hide, SF ms, stealthy, wep finesse, wep focus kama

Skills: UMD, Tumble, Spot, Hide, MS, Disc
which leaves you with enough points to max 2 other skills like traps or listen or PP, whatever you like


Dual wielding mundane kamas nets you +20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5 main hand, +20/+17 off hand
(flurry -2) for another attack

Fort DC vs Paralysis: 22
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