I'm Reporting You!!!

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Waldo52
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I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Waldo52 » Sat May 01, 2021 2:56 pm

I play a decently well known villain and polite society doesn't take well to my flamboyantly weird and disturbing interpersonal style. Most of the time this goes well. After I confront someone and get murdered for it I very often get positive tells to the tune of "That was hillarious!!!" or otherwise get praised for the encounter. Evil characters are some of the most prolific content creators out there, plotting schemes or starting scenes that the good guys are forced to react to. I definitely take pride in what I do, and it's insanely hard work. Just try playing a disturbed man who is shunned by most adventurers and can't solo content because he's a freaking rogue. Seriously, just try it. I know that if I played a paladin or a wizard or even just a more subtle bad guy I could either solo content or reliably find a party, but a deranged Jokeresque bandit can be amusing and terrifying in a totally different way and I've committed to the character.

I don't whine about how hard it is for me to achieve anything in-game. As long as I'm role playing, trying to achieve in-character goals and giving the good guys something to do I'm proud of my work. When I log in, try in vain to find a party and get killed on sight by a lynch mob of characters who know about my antics and I log out with a net XP loss there's an element of frustration there, but that's the life I chose for this character. What does get under my skin are mean spirited and unprovoked threats of reporting me to a DM.

Try to imagine this: You've put in many dozens or hundreds of hours of work leveling something that is suicidality hard to play. You do it to be part of a community, to have some fun, make some friends and put smiles on faces you'll never see in person. Your character finds a victim to prey upon. You start role playing in an antagonistic fashion: maybe you want their gold or they belong to a town or organization you're at war with. You feel a bit of guilt about killing the player's character, as they might despise PVP or be having a bad day. They might disagree with the legitimacy of your role playing justification for hostility. So you send them a tell, asking if it's okay if this comes to blows, if they're okay with the scene, etc. and they say it's totally fine. You fight and come out on top. They then send an angry tell threatening to report you.

Interactions like this are rare but when they happen it's hugely demoralizing. It's obvious that the bounty hunters, revenge killers, good aligned organizations and lawmen of the world need something to do. Evil players create the encounters and plot arcs necessary to ensure that these types of players have a role playing experience that's more than a shallow World of Warcraft costume party. And yet there are players out there who seem to think that evil character concepts should be restricted to necromancers brooding alone in a tower far away, or easily killable goons with no recourse against their attackers. For a certain type of player evil is a problem the second it becomes inconvenient for them.

I think that the specter of DM reports can have a disastrous effect on the morale of evil players and hurt the world more broadly. I really don't know how I'm supposed to be able to enjoy playing an antagonist when players will literally tell you OOC that violence is totally fine and then threaten to report you for it when it doesn't go well for them.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 01, 2021 3:09 pm

Honestly I can't think of any time when 'i'm reporting you!' is a good idea, in any situation.

If the people are tottaly meanies and such - all you're doing is giving them a warning so they can set their defence/story streight.

If the people are nice folk who just read the sitaution wrong - all you're doing is bullying/disenheartening them.

Don't tell people, 'I'm reporting you!' just -report- them!
This too shall pass.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Aleilsum Ellrum » Sat May 01, 2021 3:13 pm

A good encounter with an evildoer that heads to pvp can be really good fun. I've only had two in my time on Arelith that was really fun unfortunately, of the several pvp encounters I've had. The first one my character lost, but it was so enjoyable that it still makes me mildly smile. The second was shaping up really well but it was late on a friday and I was wiped, I sent a tell to the pixie and they backed off. To my regret I haven't seen them again because they were courteous and friendly oocly and I'd like to replay the encounter!

Your sort of evil encounter is the sort I really like, where there's good interaction, where it leads to pvp maybe but there's give-and-take and whether you win or whether you lose, it's fun.

Now and then you will get the odd really bad sport who throws his toys out of the pram, even when you've given them every chance every step along the way. It's a bad experience and a bit hurtful.

But if you can, after an hour or two step back and think of how many encounters you've had that have been fun for both of you, how many good antagonistic moments there have been. Irl and online you'll get the people who can't handle disagreement and can't handle losing, but on Arelith the vast majority of your encounters sound good. You've acted with real consideration in your encounters and it's worked for both you and your opponent. I really wish the pvpérs I've come across were as thoughtful as you.

One bad apple is just one. Give it a day and don't let the bugger grind you down. There's so many more good people out there.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Sat May 01, 2021 4:12 pm

It has always been in my experience, either on the recieving end or on the giving end that trying to warn the other person that "You're being reported!!!" only raises and escalates hostility unfortunately.
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Curve » Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm

People get mad at antagonistic behavior on Arelith. It’s been that way since the dawn of time. It’s not always that way, but sometimes it is going to be that way no matter what you do. No amount of sending nice tells before or after the fact will change that.

I would ignore a tell asking me if mechanical conflict was okay. I agreed to mechanical hostility the moment I logged into Arelith. That or I’d send a tell saying ‘why don’t we figure that out ig’. You may think doing this is kind and caring for other people’s fun, but to me it feels manipulative. If what you are doing in game is within the rules then do it, don’t ask permission. If you are doing something wrong don’t let mad players inform you of this, let the DMs.

Seems to me that you’d do well with turning tells off for a while. Keep it completely in game as an experiment for a couple weeks and see how that feels.

As a general rule, don’t send or listen to angry tells. Ignore it or tell them to go ahead and report you but your not interested in hashing it out through tells. If you want to be kind preface it’s with “sorry you had a bad experience, that was not my intention.”

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by xanrael » Sat May 01, 2021 4:49 pm

Curve wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm
I would ignore a tell asking me if mechanical conflict was okay. I agreed to mechanical hostility the moment I logged into Arelith. That or I’d send a tell saying ‘why don’t we figure that out ig’. You may think doing this is kind and caring for other people’s fun, but to me it feels manipulative. If what you are doing in game is within the rules then do it, don’t ask permission. If you are doing something wrong don’t let mad players inform you of this, let the DMs.
Eh, this seems a little harsh to have hard feelings for someone asking for permission.

While not the example given, I know as a player I'd prefer a "hey are you okay playing this out into a kidnapping?" tell. Not because I'd be unwilling if it made sense with the context, but because of the more realistic concern of maybe that pesky RL getting in the way this particular time and not having an hour+ to spare.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Flower Power » Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 pm

There are three general principles to follow in interactions with other players on Arelith.

1) Ask yourself first, "Is this going to be fun for them too, or can I bend the idea slightly in order to make it so?" If the answer is 'No', to both or either, go back to the drawing board.

2) Don't be a Dick.

3) Never send people salty tells, or shout "I'm reporting you!" If someone sends you salty tells or shouts "I'm reporting you!" at you?
DO
NOT
ENGAGE
Just ignore them and keep on keeping on.
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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat May 01, 2021 6:16 pm

On another server I played, people would coach each other on how to report players for maximum effect. And while that is sort of weird in hindsight, the advice is actually good and if everyone followed it, would make OOC interactions a lot more peaceful. Even if that peace was just because people wanted to try and weaponize anger.

1- Maintain the higher ground. If someone's being rude to you, don't be rude back. If both of you are trash-talking each other, you both look bad. If they start trash talking you, and you do not trash talk back, only they look bad.

2 - Ask them to please stop sending angry tells. If they persist, it is now harassment. Arelith has -notells so you can get around it that way, but, if people find other ways to circumvent -notells like contacting you on discord or using the talk channel, report it.

3 - Disengage. Do not reply. If they keep sending messages without you replying, it shows they are being a problem. This means don't send replies like "reported." It means don't get the last word in. Just let it drop.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Royal Blood » Sat May 01, 2021 8:20 pm

Being a villain is hard. Sometimes people that don't want to be involved get caught in the wreckage. I'd say let people vent at you, it's no big deal. People say things in the heat of the moment they don't mean. You can try to talk, if it's not productive just put them on no tells.

I had killed 3 players before on my drow and they got real mad. I just added them to no-tells. The third guy was like they are newish players , sorry and we talked about the encounter and moved on.

TLDR
Don't take things personal. But do allow self reflection. Maybe there's a way an encounter could have gone better? But don't let it destroy your fun.
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by thimblegiant » Sat May 01, 2021 9:56 pm

Curve wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm
Seems to me that you’d do well with turning tells off for a while. Keep it completely in game as an experiment for a couple weeks and see how that feels.
Personally I think this is good advice. I now play with no-tell in force all the time as I find them to be immersion breaking (including the ones I send). I've had people send tells asking if PVP is ok, but in my view, we're in the game, we know the rules, just do what you've come to do. There are plenty of ig ways to express I need to log off or don't have the time or desire. If you step across the line aggressively I'm not going to report you anyway, but rather just find a way to deal with it ig.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Ork » Sat May 01, 2021 10:14 pm

I disagree with Flower's #1. I might have agreed once upon a time that players should bend over backwards to make every engagement fun, but in reality we have no control over another person's reaction to our roleplay & we have no idea how that roleplay will be received.

It might seem selfish, but I think you're beholden first and foremost to yourself. Do what is enjoyable to yourself. Improve your character's reaction to the setting and environment. Hone your craft (and this never really ends).

Push what you're interested in seeing. Sometimes people join with and sometimes they don't. If people don't enjoy a line of roleplay, they're free to bow out. When players get heated like this, especially when you are within the limits of the rules, they're too personally invested in their character, their character's clout or the overall situation. You don't owe these players a response, and certainly if it persists - you can report them for harassment. Save screenshots of these conversations for easier reporting.

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Dr. B
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Dr. B » Sun May 02, 2021 12:08 am

Ork wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 10:14 pm
When players get heated like this, especially when you are within the limits of the rules, they're too personally invested in their character, their character's clout or the overall situation. You don't owe these players a response, and certainly if it persists - you can report them for harassment. Save screenshots of these conversations for easier reporting.
Agreed. I recall a situation many years ago where a character was very openly plotting against the drow house I was in, so we captured them with the aim of interrogating them. They refused to interact and just sent tells saying “Stop griefing me”, and the DM told us “Cleary they are not enjoying this line of roleplay.” I thought that was a bad call and just rewarded the player’s egocentrism.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by strong yeet » Sun May 02, 2021 1:00 am

Curve wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm
If what you are doing in game is within the rules then do it, don’t ask permission. If you are doing something wrong don’t let mad players inform you of this, let the DMs.
[...]
As a general rule, don’t send or listen to angry tells. Ignore it or tell them to go ahead and report you but your not interested in hashing it out through tells. If you want to be kind preface it’s with “sorry you had a bad experience, that was not my intention.”
This is probably the best advice I've ever seen written in these sorts of threads.

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Marsi
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Marsi » Sun May 02, 2021 7:17 am

Curve wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm
I would ignore a tell asking me if mechanical conflict was okay. I agreed to mechanical hostility the moment I logged into Arelith. That or I’d send a tell saying ‘why don’t we figure that out ig’. You may think doing this is kind and caring for other people’s fun, but to me it feels manipulative. If what you are doing in game is within the rules then do it, don’t ask permission. If you are doing something wrong don’t let mad players inform you of this, let the DMs.
Totally agree. The notion that we need to placate each other or organise things OOC at every difficult juncture of the game is a cliche that has existed since before I started playing.

Good players will roll with the punches. Bad players will perceive anything you say to be hostile. Just be the kind of player whose IG actions speak for themselves and who demands no emotional labour from their peers.
He can neither read nor write and in him already there broods a taste for mindless violence. All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 am

Marsi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 7:17 am
Curve wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm
I would ignore a tell asking me if mechanical conflict was okay. I agreed to mechanical hostility the moment I logged into Arelith. That or I’d send a tell saying ‘why don’t we figure that out ig’. You may think doing this is kind and caring for other people’s fun, but to me it feels manipulative. If what you are doing in game is within the rules then do it, don’t ask permission. If you are doing something wrong don’t let mad players inform you of this, let the DMs.
Totally agree. The notion that we need to placate each other or organise things OOC at every difficult juncture of the game is a cliche that has existed since before I started playing.

Good players will roll with the punches. Bad players will perceive anything you say to be hostile. Just be the kind of player whose IG actions speak for themselves and who demands no emotional labour from their peers.
Preferences don't make a player a lesser RPer, and it makes me highly worried to see people claim that unless you engage in RP that makes you uncomfortable, you're a bad roleplayer.

In P&P, you up-front discuss at the table the nature of the campaign and player comfort zones, and the DM makes an active effort to accomodate that. We don't have such ovesight here, so the onus falls on players to communicate and respect each others' preferences and comfort. If you're unsure whether what you will do will make the other uncomfortable - ask, or don't do it.

Adults know the value of consent. If they don't - they ought research the matter before using classic manipulation tactics of "Good RPers roll with the punches...Now, let me enslave and torture you even though that will make you quit. It's just RP!"

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Marsi » Sun May 02, 2021 11:28 am

LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 am
Preferences don't make a player a lesser RPer, and it makes me highly worried to see people claim that unless you engage in RP that makes you uncomfortable, you're a bad roleplayer.

In P&P, you up-front discuss at the table the nature of the campaign and player comfort zones, and the DM makes an active effort to accomodate that. We don't have such ovesight here, so the onus falls on players to communicate and respect each others' preferences and comfort. If you're unsure whether what you will do will make the other uncomfortable - ask, or don't do it.

Adults know the value of consent. If they don't - they ought research the matter before using classic manipulation tactics of "Good RPers roll with the punches...Now, let me enslave and torture you even though that will make you quit. It's just RP!"
Not sure how you contrived any of this from what I said. I'm not talking about slavery RP, raises, or other such instances that literally require verbal consent.

Generic PvP and other conflict RP does not need to involve awkward verbal massaging from either party. Be nice, follow the rules, and just be a generous and thoughtful roleplayer/storyteller. That's all. The only person I should ever have to communicate with about my rule-abiding RP, especially mid-conflict, is a dungeon master.

Scurvy puts it best.
The simplest kindness you can do for another human being trying to relax on a videogame is to be an emotionally-developed adult, refrain from demanding that they mentally and emotionally subsidize your fun and relaxation by bending their own to accommodate your idiosyncratic preferences, and stop behaving as though other people "owe" you the sort of treatment you would like. When you tell other people that they owe you outs, favors, and accommodations, you're being incredibly selfish, and probably conspiring to make yourself unhappy on top of it.
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by DangerDolphin » Sun May 02, 2021 1:27 pm

I think one issue with PvP is that everyone thinks they are the protagonist in their own head. To your paladin, a warlock you kill is just a speedbump along the road that you can brag about defeating back in the tavern. But to the one that dies, they have to face roleplaying that somehow - and it's kind of immersion breaking roleplaying the respawn.

The biggest deal to me is after the PvP. I think generally most PvP breaks out for a legitimate reason that makes sense to their characters. But afterwards I think a lot of people react badly and assume the worst about it. People are led to wonder if they do just exist as a speedbump or entertainment to the other character - and how do you roleplay that death respectfully? Do you stay out of their way for a few weeks so you can both RP the effects of the death? And if they see you again is there going to be more PK and respawning? There's a whole lot of awkward questions and awkward roleplay around PKing.

I think most of this can be solved with communication, and willingness on the part of the victor to not killbash them and kick their body out of the way like some NPC boss, but work with them to construct a story out of it. To say that the loser was 'left for dead' in the desert/wilds/mountains but they were never sure of the kill because orcs interfered. Or that they took them prisoner but they escaped on the way back to town. And that kind of reaching out from the winner to help the losing character continue their story in an immersive way is what builds trust and really helps soothe the loss. To make them feel like they're playing with you, not against you. They may reciprocate later, or tell their friends how awesome you were, leading to better interactions in future.

But right now, I think that the standard procedure for the victor is to killbash and keep all lines of communication closed. Which is immensely sad for a roleplay server. I mean, it's technically not against the rules, but I do have to wonder if people think about why those rules exist instead of blindly following the letter of them to avoid being punished.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun May 02, 2021 1:34 pm

Marsi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:28 am
LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 am
Preferences don't make a player a lesser RPer, and it makes me highly worried to see people claim that unless you engage in RP that makes you uncomfortable, you're a bad roleplayer.

In P&P, you up-front discuss at the table the nature of the campaign and player comfort zones, and the DM makes an active effort to accomodate that. We don't have such ovesight here, so the onus falls on players to communicate and respect each others' preferences and comfort. If you're unsure whether what you will do will make the other uncomfortable - ask, or don't do it.

Adults know the value of consent. If they don't - they ought research the matter before using classic manipulation tactics of "Good RPers roll with the punches...Now, let me enslave and torture you even though that will make you quit. It's just RP!"
Not sure how you contrived any of this from what I said. I'm not talking about slavery RP, raises, or other such instances that literally require verbal consent.

Generic PvP and other conflict RP does not need to involve awkward verbal massaging from either party. Be nice, follow the rules, and just be a generous and thoughtful roleplayer/storyteller. That's all. The only person I should ever have to communicate with about my rule-abiding RP, especially mid-conflict, is a dungeon master.

Scurvy puts it best.
The simplest kindness you can do for another human being trying to relax on a videogame is to be an emotionally-developed adult, refrain from demanding that they mentally and emotionally subsidize your fun and relaxation by bending their own to accommodate your idiosyncratic preferences, and stop behaving as though other people "owe" you the sort of treatment you would like. When you tell other people that they owe you outs, favors, and accommodations, you're being incredibly selfish, and probably conspiring to make yourself unhappy on top of it.
I mostly agree with this. But I will add that I don't think it is entirely black and white.

It's not a case of tells before/around combat being the absolute worst thing in the entire universe EVAR!!!!!!
Likewise it's also not a case of it being a complete neccesity for all interaction before you so much as breathe on anyone.

Play it by ear. If you're getting a vibe another player is uncomfortable with a situaiton - reach out and check.

You'll never get it entirely right. Some folk are so chill and in the mood they'll be like 'dude, don't contact me in tells, lemme run with the rp baby!' And others will be like 'oh my god you're obviously hating on me ooc because you did not bow down and worship the ground I walk on! I'm reporting you!'

Run with what makes you feel comfortable, do your best to make sure others are happy (Flowers rule is pretty good) but also accept that you can't -force- them to be happy. You will mess it up sometimes. Or other times people will be too demanding. Let it wash off you and carry on. It's just a game after all.
This too shall pass.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by magistrasa » Sun May 02, 2021 1:45 pm

DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 1:27 pm
I think one issue with PvP is that everyone thinks they are the protagonist in their own head.
Tbh I think this is a recurring problem with the current roleplay climate in general. People get so focused on the story they want to tell about their character that they fail to make Arelith a truly collaborative effort. With that sorta mindset, your character just becomes something that you inflict upon the people around you, instead of an experience you share. People gotta put in the effort to step back and truly examine their role and impact on the grander narrative. But hey, maybe saying this here is just preaching to the choir.
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Xarge VI » Sun May 02, 2021 4:01 pm

There is a fact about RP to be contemplated and realized especially when playing an antagonistic character that can help with the anxiety caused by bad opponents.

It's that one encounter with one good foe is more impactful than ten defeats to bad opponents for your character's reputation and to an extent the game world itself.

Pushing the larger narrative of the gameworld requires people to enjoy your rp thus people with poor disposition usually lack the gravitas. So don't be afraid to just let go and carry on when you sense that someone isn't playing ball.

Also some of the poor handling of opposition can come from a general feeling of distrust. In the past I've found a whole new side opening in people by allowing my villain to get captured or by making rp out of a disappointing pvp.

The way I consider rp is basically throwing things at people to see if it sticks.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Arienette » Sun May 02, 2021 7:27 pm

I have at times sent people a tell letting them know I plan to report them. But not in a “Neener Neener I’m telling on you way”.

The times I have done it, have been when I have some reason to believe the action was done out of ignorance. Like if I get the impression the player is new to the server or not experienced at PvP.

Something like “Hey just in case you didn’t know, you need to set me to hostile before attacking me. It doing so is a rule break”

Obviously I don’t do this if I know or believe the other person was an experienced player trying to get a leg up on me.

Is this bad style?

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun May 02, 2021 7:49 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 7:27 pm
I have at times sent people a tell letting them know I plan to report them. But not in a “Neener Neener I’m telling on you way”.

The times I have done it, have been when I have some reason to believe the action was done out of ignorance. Like if I get the impression the player is new to the server or not experienced at PvP.

Something like “Hey just in case you didn’t know, you need to set me to hostile before attacking me. It doing so is a rule break”

Obviously I don’t do this if I know or believe the other person was an experienced player trying to get a leg up on me.

Is this bad style?
This is a slightly hazy one, as really players arn't supposed to police other players.

My take on it is this...
Something like “Hey just in case you didn’t know, you need to set me to hostile before attacking me. It doing so is a rule break”
This is... probably fine if you think the player is genuinly new. If you arn't actually that bothered by the rule break, believe it's a mistake, and just want to set the player streight? Most of the time that's fine. Probably need to carefully word it, but in... most situations you're probably fine?

But the thing is I think there's a big difference between saying
Something like “Hey just in case you didn’t know, you need to set me to hostile before attacking me. It doing so is a rule break”
And
Hay, in case you didn't know you need to set me to hostile before attacking me! I'm going to report you for this!
The first is informative. You arn't angry or upset or anything - you're letting them know just for the future. And that's cool. The second is 'You broke the rules now you better be scared, 'cos I'mma gonna report you!'

The former is fine. The latter... well it's not illegal but it's in poor form.
This too shall pass.

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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sun May 02, 2021 9:11 pm

I don't think there's ever any value added in informing another player that you're going to report them.

It may not be against the rules, but it also doesn't contribute anything to the situation. At best, it feels a little weird (because what you're probably trying to say is "I didn't like that very much" or "hey I think you broke the rules", so just say that instead). At worst, it feels like an attempt at manipulation/intimidation.

I would also add that if you think a report is genuinely warranted, you do yourself absolutely zero favors by going off on the other party in green text.

tl;dr I just wouldn't. If you want to hash things out with a player, do it without tossing in a promise of a report. If you're going to write a report, just write a report; there's no need to advertise.
If you're playing a character or acting as a player that mistakes principle for intransigence, you never wanted a Roleplay server.
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon May 03, 2021 5:08 am

It's a video game. And while Arelith is not the most competitive video game in the world, people get heated when they loose in pvp and sometimes say stupid stuff. All these "if they do this then you should do that" statements are an exercise in futility, since every situation is different and every person reacts differently. If someone wants to report me after pvp I say good, since if I did something wrong I expect I will be told so and if I did nothing wrong I expect the reporter will be told so. Either way someone learns from the situation and life goes on.

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Airport Proximity Jesus
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Re: I'm Reporting You!!!

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Mon May 03, 2021 10:48 pm

I almost always try to immediately engage in friendly OOC chatter with the "enemy" the moment pvp ends either in my favor or my loss. Making people feel secure in knowing you're concerned about their enjoyment/arent upset at them, I find, has almost always led to good(or better than otherwise) outcomes.

The only times this has ever failed is when the other person wanted to report me because they assumed I did something wrong.
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