Arelith Timeline Project

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Void
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Void » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:46 am

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:43 pm
The Brandts main goal was turning Sibayad into a settlement like city.
Oh. So that's why the name felt familiar. I witnessed an echo of that storyline and echo of its conclusion (messages on noticeboards, as usual). Now it clicked in place.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:33 am

I would mourn a world where the DragonLance saga never happened because the players didn't want each other to know about the sneaky things they did awhile ago in the game... I kind of feel like stopping this idea from happening because of anyone's IC secrets is tragic in the same way. I'm super happy this got a moderated green-light.

Edit: I edited this- it was a lot longer before I noticed the IG edit at the beginning of the thread.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Nitro » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:38 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:33 am
I would mourn a world where the DragonLance saga never happened because the players didn't want each other to know about the sneaky things they did awhile ago in the game... I kind of feel like stopping this idea from happening because of anyone's IC secrets is tragic in the same way. I'm super happy this got a moderated green-light.

Edit: I edited this- it was a lot longer before I noticed the IG edit at the beginning of the thread.
I think it is a bit difference with the example of dragonlance, where it's a small group of likeminded people sitting around the same table. Here we have a server of thousands of players often with different goals and often doing secret things that still impact the server years later as people learn about them in character.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Irongron » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:10 pm

My own character played a pivotal role on Arelith, when, upon stumbling across a letter from the Mysterious 'Morgunn the Black', strung together a series of clues revealing him as the mastermind behind the orcish incursions on Arelith, and himself the puppet of a great abyssal power.

Working entirely alone, and despite others pouring scorn on his discoveries, my character traced this villain to his hideout in the Forest of Despair, and following an epic battle finally defeated Morgunn, once and for all destroying Arelith's greatest enemy, forever.

Forever.


(I also uncovered a previously unknown conspiracy going to the very heart of Cordor when I discovered a list of known cult members in Cordor Crypts)

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by D4wN » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 pm
Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:25 am
I'm not really sure why the Brandt story arc keeps being referenced when there are so many other great plots listed. I'm going to reach out on a limb and say it's a reference to me using this whole project for some personal gain. While the Brandt story was fun at the time I have had others since, two of which aren't being mentioned on the timeline.
People are correcting inaccuracies they see in it. This is one of them. A LOT of people were involved in that era, what is listed is a simplification that doesn't do it justice at all.


With that said, I've got the text of Oskarr's book where the character went and interviewed a bunch of people to try and figure out what happened. They went and interviewed a lot of people involved, this might be the least biased telling.
Tyrran Record & Judgement I : The Battle of Sibayad, involving the von Brandt Family, the Church of Helm, the Concordant, and Cordor - Issues of "Lesser" Evil, Negligence, and Redemption (4)
.....
I don't really want to open this can of worms again, but here goes. There are a lot of inaccuracies in that book. It may be IG, and maybe a lot of people were interviewed, but doesn't make it true. Perception, assumptions and bias can change stories significantly. There are also accuracies in the book however and it was a good read. I know the player put a lot of effort into it and enjoyed reading it.

Aside from this constantly returning topic, I still think this is a great project. I know that when I was a brand new player I loved reading about Benwick and what happened and then later finding out more information IG/ICly.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Zavandar » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:04 pm

D4wN wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 pm
There are a lot of inaccuracies in that book
The issue is, at this point, a lot of people aren't willing to just take your word for it because of the rest of the inconsistences so far. The original excerpt for this topic said, "the Gauntlet helped to destroy the von Brandts." I disputed this in the discord and was mob-overuled. Now more people are coming forward with screenshots, testimonies, and in-game texts and are still being told "no, you're wrong".

The same excerpt also originally labeled Vance a "Myon sympathizer" yet did not label Denny a "von Brandt sympathizer" (in fact, it made no mention of Denny at all).

When I note these inconsistencies and that such writing lends itself towards a certain agenda, I get told, "Don't worry about it. It's fixed."

I'm going to worry about it because it's just one of the posts in a potentially huge project that highlights so many things that can go wrong with it:
  • Who said the Gauntlet helped destroy them? "Many people" said they did, but just one person (Dawn) contradicting it "fixed it" (but another single person, me, disputing it did not).
  • If Dawn said they weren't involved and she is the leader of the Gauntlet, who did? Are there "many people" deliberately spreading misinformation?
  • Why was Vance labeled a Myon sympathizer but nobody else's "sympathies" mentioned?
I've gotten similar strange reasoning/excuses for other points I have disputed. The project totes itself as unbiased, yet when I challenge things, I am told by contributors, "I challenge you to find an unbiased historical account." That's not my job. I know history is biased. I know this project is biased. It is literally advertised as unbiased but then, on discord, contributors say it will inevitably be biased; this just tells me they're trying to sell the timeline as a factual account while also shrinking their responsibility to be factual.

And this stance makes me both uncomfortable and skeptical.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:09 pm

Yeah. Everything Zavander said.

If people behind this project are making no attempt to be neutral parties, then this is just player propaganda.

You will never ascertain "truth" here. That should not be the goal.

The goal should be to facilitate pre-existing knowledge.

If people are mob-ruling Zavander's position in Discord then I have very very strong words for them. And those people should not be in charge of this project.

Clearly, some people are way too attached to what happened - and severing that attachment should be the number 1 priority of the people behind this work.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:35 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:10 pm
My own character played a pivotal role on Arelith, when, upon stumbling across a letter from the Mysterious 'Morgunn the Black', strung together a series of clues revealing him as the mastermind behind the orcish incursions on Arelith, and himself the puppet of a great abyssal power.

Working entirely alone, and despite others pouring scorn on his discoveries, my character traced this villain to his hideout in the Forest of Despair, and following an epic battle finally defeated Morgunn, once and for all destroying Arelith's greatest enemy, forever.

Forever.


(I also uncovered a previously unknown conspiracy going to the very heart of Cordor when I discovered a list of known cult members in Cordor Crypts)
Stories like these are defiantly worth remembering!

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:41 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:04 pm
D4wN wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 pm
There are a lot of inaccuracies in that book
The issue is, at this point, a lot of people aren't willing to just take your word for it because of the rest of the inconsistences so far. The original excerpt for this topic said, "the Gauntlet helped to destroy the von Brandts." I disputed this in the discord and was mob-overuled. Now more people are coming forward with screenshots, testimonies, and in-game texts and are still being told "no, you're wrong".

The same excerpt also originally labeled Vance a "Myon sympathizer" yet did not label Denny a "von Brandt sympathizer" (in fact, it made no mention of Denny at all).

When I note these inconsistencies and that such writing lends itself towards a certain agenda, I get told, "Don't worry about it. It's fixed."

I'm going to worry about it because it's just one of the posts in a potentially huge project that highlights so many things that can go wrong with it:
  • Who said the Gauntlet helped destroy them? "Many people" said they did, but just one person (Dawn) contradicting it "fixed it" (but another single person, me, disputing it did not).
  • If Dawn said they weren't involved and she is the leader of the Gauntlet, who did? Are there "many people" deliberately spreading misinformation?
  • Why was Vance labeled a Myon sympathizer but nobody else's "sympathies" mentioned?
I've gotten similar strange reasoning/excuses for other points I have disputed. The project totes itself as unbiased, yet when I challenge things, I am told by contributors, "I challenge you to find an unbiased historical account." That's not my job. I know history is biased. I know this project is biased. It is literally advertised as unbiased but then, on discord, contributors say it will inevitably be biased; this just tells me they're trying to sell the timeline as a factual account while also shrinking their responsibility to be factual.

And this stance makes me both uncomfortable and skeptical.
I would invite you and anyone else to go and read the entries again as they have been changed to include new information. Projects like this are ever-changing as more people come forward with new information. Denny wasn't mentioned because, honestly, he didn't play a large role in the final battle and I am unable to list every person that was there. Instead, a focus of the PC that was killed (rolled) and the one who was responsible for that death were mentioned.

As always if anyone sees missing information or incorrect data let us know!

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:46 pm

The only way this will ever work without the issues that so many people have pointed out so far (and that are already evident in some of the discussions), will be to keep it extremely bare bones and more of a player manual type of thing, rather than an extensive historical encyclopedia.

Treat adjectives like the plague, and stay very far away from lengthy descriptions and the nitty gritty of any particular event.

You should also stay way from anything that has happened within the last...2 real life years?

Anything else will, sadly, and despite anyone's best intentions, slowly slide into biased territory that can, as so many have said, be easily metagamed.

A small example:
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:38 pm

Like Borin said, after ocassionally following in what's happening here that seems to be for the best.

"Blooblip killed Badabim because Blooblip was a Myon sympathiser and wanted to bang the queen."

Reads a lot worse than

"Blooblip killed Badabim." Or even "Bloodblip killed Badabim, the reason behind his acting is still subject for debate."
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Edens_Fall » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:26 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:38 pm
Like Borin said, after ocassionally following in what's happening here that seems to be for the best.

"Blooblip killed Badabim because Blooblip was a Myon sympathiser and wanted to bang the queen."

Reads a lot worse than

"Blooblip killed Badabim." Or even "Bloodblip killed Badabim, the reason behind his acting is still subject for debate."
I am coming to understand and appreciate this idea more, though the rephrasing of all entries will take some time. We will get there however!

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:09 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:09 pm
You will never ascertain "truth" here. That should not be the goal.
Hey. I wanted to ask you to elaborate on this sentiment. If someone can accurately recall, having been involved in the situation, for example, that their character did X for Y reasons (not saying that was the case in the earlier example, just a hypothetical to delve into the quoted idea), are we saying that we shouldn't write that down for fear of it affecting the ongoing campaign, even years later?

I feel we should be able to look at an empirical history, as players. Similar to if we were picking up, say, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, except lets call it the Arelith Frontier Campaign Setting instead. X thing happened on Y date. Here's what we know about it from the sources we could find, who was involved and why, who married whom, who killed whom, who begat whom, etc.

While I will agree that depending on the source what you will find will vary greatly, I feel there should be able to be a group of individuals that can be 'vetted' as it were, hopefully by the administration and/or team, as individuals who are markedly attempting to be non-biased in recounting what they find, to then take that and create a composite presentation.

At a certain point, then, can't we then reach an academic consensus of history that could be used as common setting material? You can also highlight certain incidents, and mention that while the written conclusions are the generally accepted consensus, there are X individuals who make Y claim about historical incident Z.

As a parallel example, history denotes the 'celebration' of the tearing down of the Berlin wall in the 80's (or my social studies textbook did, at least.) There are, I'm sure, some individuals who may have wanted the wall to remain standing, for whatever reasons, but we don't all run out to accuse the historians of intentionally fabricating a false narrative over this, nor do we cease studying said history for fear of teaching information that may later be overturned.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Curve » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:53 am

There are a few big differences with doing real life history and Arelith history. A couple things off the top of my head,

1) In real life we don't care what the people involved feel about the way the story is told, we don't care if Regan is bummed out by the way we tell history. When it comes to Arelith history we should care about the players involved feelings.

2) Your American (I assume) social studies textbook is biased. I'd wager that if you cracked open a text book from the Soviet Union before it's collapse you would find a different telling than the brave hero president kicking down the wall with his mighty hammer of capitalism. People accuse real historians of intentionally fabricating false narratives all the time sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:20 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:09 am
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:09 pm
You will never ascertain "truth" here. That should not be the goal.
Hey. I wanted to ask you to elaborate on this sentiment. If someone can accurately recall, having been involved in the situation, for example, that their character did X for Y reasons (not saying that was the case in the earlier example, just a hypothetical to delve into the quoted idea), are we saying that we shouldn't write that down for fear of it affecting the ongoing campaign, even years later?

I feel we should be able to look at an empirical history, as players. Similar to if we were picking up, say, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, except lets call it the Arelith Frontier Campaign Setting instead. X thing happened on Y date. Here's what we know about it from the sources we could find, who was involved and why, who married whom, who killed whom, who begat whom, etc.

While I will agree that depending on the source what you will find will vary greatly, I feel there should be able to be a group of individuals that can be 'vetted' as it were, hopefully by the administration and/or team, as individuals who are markedly attempting to be non-biased in recounting what they find, to then take that and create a composite presentation.

At a certain point, then, can't we then reach an academic consensus of history that could be used as common setting material? You can also highlight certain incidents, and mention that while the written conclusions are the generally accepted consensus, there are X individuals who make Y claim about historical incident Z.

As a parallel example, history denotes the 'celebration' of the tearing down of the Berlin wall in the 80's (or my social studies textbook did, at least.) There are, I'm sure, some individuals who may have wanted the wall to remain standing, for whatever reasons, but we don't all run out to accuse the historians of intentionally fabricating a false narrative over this, nor do we cease studying said history for fear of teaching information that may later be overturned.
Elaborate I will! With some guiding questions.

1. History is the academic pursuit of truth. This is an ontological exercise where multiple people can have multiple viewpoints that influences our idea of truth. Obviously. We see they are at work in this thread.

The goal of modern history is to combat and challenge the underlying assumptions of these histories - aka, historiography. The history of how history is written. An actual "historian" would be taking the fact a bunch of people hear say that the account of Sibayad copypasted here is in fact "more accurate" than this other version Dawn suggests. A historian would ask-

A. What are the underlying assumptions?
B. How do we reconcile conflicting accounts?
C. How do we deal with biases and human error?
D. Can we make any material inferences?
E. "So what"?

The answers to these questions would inform both the history of the event and the history of HOW people talk about that history. In contemporary times, both are equally important (see, this thread).

With all of this in mind, how you answer those 4 above questions in the Arelithian context?

The most notable example of the arising conflict are player/character misinterpretation of fact.

Historian PC Trintiren mistakenly writes in a text,

"Ayin Mesmer was a Red Wizard." When in fact he MEANT to write,

"Ayin Mesmer is a Red Wizard." Both hit differently - and Arelithians are pretty smart and will catch on.

Suddenly, Myon latches onto the misinterpretation (actually a mistake) and thus uses an accidental misinterpretation.

But years later, this knowledge is lost to the playerbase. All that remains is the text. So when in time was Ayin Mesmer a Red Wizard?

The problem gets more complex when server culture actually DOES NOT THINK the original error was indeed an error but the truth.

This problem arises a lot now in-game, sometimes accidentally - and sometimes, willfully. I have been adjacent to multiple scenarios where it is indeterminable whether a character OR PLAYER is mispresenting facts WILLFULLY OR BECAUSE THEY HAVE A BAD MEMORY.

How can you ever suggest thus that any meaningful history (not just who married who on what date) can ever be true?

This is why Daedin's suggestion (and many others) is most sound.

We can probably articulate everything up to maybe the 20s AR with some detail but everything afterwards should be as generic as possible.

This is why the actual history of Arelith should be archaeological, not what we might think of as a history textbook.

Also, as an afterthought, campaign settings aren't actually very well-designed from the perspective of creating "characters." They are designed to have an informed world.

A bunch of dates and facts typically does not inspire - rather, it fosters too much certainty. It tempts players with saying that in year 1372 this shit happened and you cannot say otherwise.

Some of history works that way - a lot of it actually doesn't. Modern campaign settings are actually trying to be a lot more nebulous and prompting than titanic vaults of knowledge.

Again, that actually is not useful or helpful unless you are a DM.

Which we are not.

Because at the end of the day, this will not be "Arelith's History." This will be "Eden Falls & Co's Arelith History."

2.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:54 am

Unless the staff makes an official timeline/history the most we can ever hope for is an honest attempt by the player base to record and recount events. Will it be perfect? No. As we have seen not everyone approves of the idea, nor will everyone share their stories. Will we try and do the best with what we have and are given, of course, but for me at least it really does boil down to a simple desire to remember. Not just my own stories, but everyones. I have seen firsthand the awesome and inspiring RP and plots that Arelith players can create. That alone is worth this attempt.

Sure it may be remembered as some player project that has no value as an official source of Arelith lore, but that was never the point. The point was for there to be a place where old and new players alike can look and go "Wow . . . that was a really neat story arc. I bet they had fun!" OR "I can't believe they did that but I would have tried this. Maybe I can get IG and do something better".

We just want a place where the PC's we know and love can share their experiences and hopefully inspire others along the way.

On a side note, while I am hesitant to delete the old entries, I am been cleaning them up to be less biased. While not always clear, some were rather obvious in their self-serving nature. Such entries are boiled down to their core facts without the extra flair.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:11 pm

By the way Edens Fall, I really admire the spirit of what you are trying to do, and get the drive behind it. Reading this topic at first, I was feeling bad for you due to how many people were putting down the idea (even if with sound and logic criticism).

I did a whole arelith Underdark player manual without being an actual authority on it and for no reason other than being a nerd and loving the setting, and thinking that, maybe, once in a while, it would be useful to someone. Sometimes I still look at it and have to fight the urge to delete the whole thing, believing it to have been a useless and idiotic effort.


I guess what I am trying to say is: dont get discouraged. Done wisely and staying true to the guidelines so many people have suggested , this could end up being a neat tool for old and new players alike.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Void » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:36 pm

I think that it is enough to keep in mind that "this has no weight in game", "this is not known in game" and "this may be a personal perspective and not necessarily a perfect objective truth".

I think it is a good idea to try to record stuff, as it is interesting to look back and recall "wow, that happened". Even if the view point is a personal one and does not try to maintain perfect objectivity. As sometimes things get lost.

For example, at one point I had a house which contained gradfathered items, among them, I think there was a training mat that once belonged, I believe, to knights of the road. This item is probbaly long gone now, like many others items that I witnessed in the past.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Inordinate » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:53 pm

Void wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:36 pm
I think that it is enough to keep in mind that "this has no weight in game", "this is not known in game" and "this may be a personal perspective and not necessarily a perfect objective truth".
To reiterate a previous point, the fact that people say these things will not stop it being used against those wishes. FR Wiki is proof of that already.

Pretty much no one has argued the merits of a mirrored version of these efforts being carried in character, in game, and I still hold that is the best way to see this realized. Most, if not all of it, could be made into permanent fixtures, module book drops, etc. that can and in some cases should have the voice of the 'author' recounting the events to avoid the issues of player bias and historian revisionism that were brought up and desperately trying to be avoided with this OOC effort. The number of ways a project like this could be represented or added to in character is numerous.

I draw parallels to the use of (Disguise) vs. the quotes in a player name for the disguise system: there really is a different feeling to how information is perceived and interacted with depending on how it is conveyed. Books already in-module detailing events like Benwick do a good job of sharing the server's history and I think that effort should be continued in the same vein.

I can easily see how multiple angles of this could be taken that involve numerous other groups across the Surface, Underdark, Distant Shores, Guldorand, etc.. Different groups could write from their own perspectives and offer clashing information in a way that both encourages further roleplay and avoids issues with the ever looming specter of trying to enforce an objective truth to the things that happened from outside the narrative.

Why does there need to be a player asserted truth to these things?
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Void » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:59 pm

Inordinate wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:53 pm
Why does there need to be a player asserted truth to these things?
I'm not seeing it as truth or assertion.

To me it looks like someone played the server and decided to collect history for their own fun and shared the results here.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by chris a gogo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:41 pm

I gave this a look over today and it is clear it's a players perspective and not an official version.

So have fun writing it so long as we don't get players trying to quote it as the truth later down the line there is really no harm in it.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Edens_Fall » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:17 pm

Inordinate wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:53 pm
Void wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:36 pm
I think that it is enough to keep in mind that "this has no weight in game", "this is not known in game" and "this may be a personal perspective and not necessarily a perfect objective truth".
To reiterate a previous point, the fact that people say these things will not stop it being used against those wishes. FR Wiki is proof of that already.

Pretty much no one has argued the merits of a mirrored version of these efforts being carried in character, in game, and I still hold that is the best way to see this realized. Most, if not all of it, could be made into permanent fixtures, module book drops, etc. that can and in some cases should have the voice of the 'author' recounting the events to avoid the issues of player bias and historian revisionism that were brought up and desperately trying to be avoided with this OOC effort. The number of ways a project like this could be represented or added to in character is numerous.

I draw parallels to the use of (Disguise) vs. the quotes in a player name for the disguise system: there really is a different feeling to how information is perceived and interacted with depending on how it is conveyed. Books already in-module detailing events like Benwick do a good job of sharing the server's history and I think that effort should be continued in the same vein.

I can easily see how multiple angles of this could be taken that involve numerous other groups across the Surface, Underdark, Distant Shores, Guldorand, etc.. Different groups could write from their own perspectives and offer clashing information in a way that both encourages further roleplay and avoids issues with the ever looming specter of trying to enforce an objective truth to the things that happened from outside the narrative.

Why does there need to be a player asserted truth to these things?
There have been several attempts IG to do just that. However, with the way fixtures are lost and more importantly how little factions will work with each other (I don't care if you are a historian! Your evil!), the ability is very limited. One also must remember they are limited to IG abilities. A PC can't reach out OOC to another player of a now long dead PC to ask "What was your experience during the Benwick events?"

Either way, if there are those that prefer an IG approach I know of at least three active groups right now IG that have a goal of recording history. So that option is there should any wish it.

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:42 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:20 am

Elaborate I will! With some guiding questions.

1. History is the academic pursuit of truth. This is an ontological exercise where multiple people can have multiple viewpoints that influences our idea of truth. Obviously. We see they are at work in this thread.

The goal of modern history is to combat and challenge the underlying assumptions of these histories - aka, historiography. The history of how history is written. An actual "historian" would be taking the fact a bunch of people hear say that the account of Sibayad copypasted here is in fact "more accurate" than this other version Dawn suggests. A historian would ask-

A. What are the underlying assumptions?
B. How do we reconcile conflicting accounts?
C. How do we deal with biases and human error?
D. Can we make any material inferences?
E. "So what"?

The answers to these questions would inform both the history of the event and the history of HOW people talk about that history. In contemporary times, both are equally important (see, this thread).

With all of this in mind, how you answer those 4 above questions in the Arelithian context?

The most notable example of the arising conflict are player/character misinterpretation of fact.

Historian PC Trintiren mistakenly writes in a text,

"Ayin Mesmer was a Red Wizard." When in fact he MEANT to write,

"Ayin Mesmer is a Red Wizard." Both hit differently - and Arelithians are pretty smart and will catch on.

Suddenly, Myon latches onto the misinterpretation (actually a mistake) and thus uses an accidental misinterpretation.

But years later, this knowledge is lost to the playerbase. All that remains is the text. So when in time was Ayin Mesmer a Red Wizard?

The problem gets more complex when server culture actually DOES NOT THINK the original error was indeed an error but the truth.

This problem arises a lot now in-game, sometimes accidentally - and sometimes, willfully. I have been adjacent to multiple scenarios where it is indeterminable whether a character OR PLAYER is mispresenting facts WILLFULLY OR BECAUSE THEY HAVE A BAD MEMORY.

How can you ever suggest thus that any meaningful history (not just who married who on what date) can ever be true?
This is a lot to consider, and it's a very fair point. It's a very valid issue I wasn't really leaning towards, but I can see how it influences the rest of the subject, and it's a big one. Deliberate misinformation is an unfortunate thing - however, that's why I suggested the idea of forming a composite - which I'll touch back on later.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:20 am
This is why Daedin's suggestion (and many others) is most sound.

We can probably articulate everything up to maybe the 20s AR with some detail but everything afterwards should be as generic as possible.

This is why the actual history of Arelith should be archaeological, not what we might think of as a history textbook.

Also, as an afterthought, campaign settings aren't actually very well-designed from the perspective of creating "characters." They are designed to have an informed world.

A bunch of dates and facts typically does not inspire - rather, it fosters too much certainty. It tempts players with saying that in year 1372 this shit happened and you cannot say otherwise.

Some of history works that way - a lot of it actually doesn't. Modern campaign settings are actually trying to be a lot more nebulous and prompting than titanic vaults of knowledge.
This is actually something I can lean into. We agree to a certain extent, that a bunch of facts and dates don't inspire, by themselves, but I feel that they can, given context and detail. This requires a slightly heavier dose of information than I think you favor, which I would agree opens up more doors for misinformation and revisionist history. But to then touch on the idea of a DM, which we are not, normally when you play a multiplayer RPG you're all playing in the same setting.

Yes, these dates and facts bring an amount of certainty to the table - the certainty that your character is from x part of FR, and that you can reasonably expect the other characters in the game to be from a part of FR as well. That on this island, drow historically share their city with a myriad of others, some of whom fall slave to them and others who don't, but coexist anyway. That once upon a time X settlement had a war with Y settlement and maybe both sides suffered losses, and both sides think the other side started it for reason Z.

We aren't DM's, but on Arelith for the most part we don't look to DM's for plot hooks and story prompts - instead we try to make them up ourselves and not step on anyone else's toes while doing so. This element of certainty normally comes from the DM, and if it's a Team-approved project to create a setting history that everyone can reference as a starting point, can't it still be that on a consensus level?

If, for example, no one ever wants to come out and say in a that one side or the other started X war, for fear of people from the other side not agreeing with that viewpoint, how can someone later choose to be inspired to write up an orphan of the referenced war, obsessed with taking his vengeance on the side that started the war and left him orphaned? You could write it about two random off-island settlements, but then that's a lot of fluff and backstory, and not something you can use interactively in an inclusive sense with others for playing your character with them right now in the actual setting.

Obviously, that's only one example, but I feel like you get where I'm going with that, and while it would take a lot of words for each other example to keep going on, I don't feel it takes nearly all that much effort to imagine another half dozen scenarios that are likewise a reach at best without established setting history. Wharftown is a much different story if, for example, you hear that the helpless fishing village was run by multiple evil factions that waged war on multiple other settlements several times within the span of few decades before it happened. I was personally present for two of them. Does that mean that what happened to Wharftown was right? That matter is up to debate and perspective, and IC remains so regardless of whether or not you know that - but those details may very well be relevant to any individual perspective, depending.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:20 am
Again, that actually is not useful or helpful unless you are a DM. Which we are not.

Because at the end of the day, this will not be "Arelith's History." This will be "Eden Falls & Co's Arelith History."
I feel that if the Team vets the process in the way I previously described, that it might be okay to merge the two into one, for the sake of actually having source material at some point. It's okay, if all effort is made to be accurate, if not everything that comes out is 100% accurate to what actually happened - at a certain point, a setting should have at least some foundation of history, and I feel done in the right way it would be okay to hand-waive it and say "in the setting, this is how it happened, although there are those who claim it happened this way." The FR Setting, itself, is full of such notes.

To me, the fact that we aren't all DM's, and that the DM's have such a light-handed approach in story-hooking as a part of Arelith's atmosphere, makes these consensus details all the more important for the sake of working with an established setting everyone can share - it enables the "Yes, and" interaction, rather than the "No, but," one.

Arelith is well on its way to two centuries of player history - I think documenting everything Pre-EE would be a nice way to help those who didn't join until after feel informed about the story they're a part of.
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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Edens_Fall » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:21 pm

I am forever in awe of the skilled writers we have here and how they can put thoughts to words so elegantly!

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Re: Arelith Timeline Project

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:38 pm

I think while many projects like this have issues. A bigger issue is that something like this never ends up maintained.

There are plenty of historical things that will be recorded incorrectly, and if things need to get changed with evidence they should. But gathering a timeline like this regardless of inaccuracies allows for something a lot BETTER, which is, a living record.


Something noticable happens it can be recorded that month or week from now on, yeah? And thus the inaccuracies become limited to what came before and not what will come after.

This is insanely important.


That being said, one bit of history i can assist with is a parallel history that quite often gets overidden -- i can assist in any way need be of Banite history from 110 AR to present, and have firsthand accounts from players as far back as 40 AR.

As someone who is essentially playing a banite historian (among other things) can commit lords of minmir and some of their command of notables and events.

Thw banite history is one of, if not THE most difficult thing to record as its quite often cleared of historical data almost every 6 months IRL time.

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