A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

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Ork
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Ork » Wed May 18, 2022 2:22 am

I usually realize that I'm crushing it as a paladin if another character claims mine is "false". Paladins are divisive characters in D&D, not because of their alignment but because they stand for something - and that something is often dogmatic and unshakeable.

Paladins take special care to play, and consideration of their oaths should be rigid. I'd report paladins that did the following:
• using poison
• hiring an assassin
• killing someone bound or incapacitated
• failing/refusing to protect a defenseless
• profiting from murder
• failing to uphold deity mantras

I do think if we're going to make the most of this thread, here's my challenge to all the paladin players out there - find a way to develop an identity beyond the label. A lathandarite paladin might take a jog around Cordor square every dawn and then enjoy a warm breakfast in the Nomad. A Hoarite paladin might enjoy spending his day sharing a beer with aggrieved patrons and equip them to overcome their own grievances. A mystarran paladin might sit in on a class in the arcane tower. An ilmateri paladin might get blackout drunk to save the local booze-hound from a similar fate. Find a way to breath a different activity into your character's day that is altogether mundane & simple. It's hard writing well-rounded paladins, but I found success in doing these things often and frequently when I played mine.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Hazard » Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am

Evil paladins are a staple of Arelith.
Would like to see their alignment shifted appropriately, though.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed May 18, 2022 5:49 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am
Evil paladins are a staple of Arelith.
How so? I'm genuinely curious, because I have not seen it myself yet.


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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Hazard » Wed May 18, 2022 6:26 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:49 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am
Evil paladins are a staple of Arelith.
How so? I'm genuinely curious, because I have not seen it myself yet.
I was being cheeky, but ..

There's been more paladins that have straight up murdered an innocent person, callously, than I can even care to count.

In my opinion, shouldn't cosmic good and evil matter when a paladin just goes slaughtering about? If they end up killing good/innocent/the wrong people just because they "believe" it's right, then .. Can't anyone be a paladin? A necromancer thinks they're doing the right thing, so can they multiclass as a paladin? Since the answer is obviously no, I take that to mean that simply 'believing' you are doing the right thing isn't enough to justify gleeful slaughter of people as a paladin, when they turn out in fact to be ... Not evil, or had done nothing wrong.

If you haven't seen some whack and twisted paladins, then we must have very different play experiences/times, because to me it's about as common as halflings acting like eight year olds.
Last edited by Hazard on Wed May 18, 2022 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by gryggrstrkssontreelover » Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am

There's a lot of good points brought up in this thread. I think what Dr. B & GrazalThruka touched upon aligns closer to my experience in playing the game. It's more common to see people argue for absolute gray morality in a show of unnecessary and in my opinion incorrect nuance. I like Paladins that have hard-line and reasonably supported principles and act in the pursuit of a greater good. It's far superior to morally gray Paladins who hang around evil individuals and commit evil acts.

There is a way to make things interesting whilst holding onto your dogma. Effort put towards embodying your character so that they're not merely an avatar and representing the mindset of someone in Faerun is appreciated, even more so when you can avoid being a dick to everyone you meet (where undeserved) and give the proper significance and weight to death and the many evils of the land that the topics deserve.

The number of incidents in which I've seen Paladins threaten to murder anyone who worships evil is a pretty small pool of incidents too, most of them come from time spent in Skaljard with genocidal crusaders popping up and quickly disappearing lol. Paladins don't have to be out there killing every Banite they see, but they really should be exercising intolerance where it is appropriate, they are after all for the most part rigidly disciplined and devout to their faith. Especially so when it comes to particularly heinous and public Gods, and well-known enemies (Torm v Bane, Ilmater v Loviatar). Paladins should probably not be attempting an impromptu execution on people passing them but sudden conflict in the form of harsh words or a theological debate is interesting engagement when the opportunity arises. Of course, if the opposite side doesn't want to engage then the Paladin is just left to heckle and proclaim how righteous their own God is.

Cooperation against a greater foe is appropriate where it arises too, but the reality of the God that one worships should still be accepted. An exception of course, to the lesser known Gods, it is nice when people don't react as if they know every single Pantheon God that has ever existed and been slain. The opposite of zealotry in the extension of tolerance and love from every character is a bit sickening, seeing Drow that behave as if they're nocturnal teenage girls is irritating for example when you're trying to appreciate and take them seriously as one of the most alien antagonist cultures in D&D.

Also I hold great disdain for the myriad of players who have declared that they swore an oath to never lie. I would appreciate if someone could club them over the head for trying that excuse.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by -XXX- » Wed May 18, 2022 8:33 am

Ork wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:22 am
• profiting from murder
Isn't that basically the job description of player characters though? :lol:

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Snake2512 » Wed May 18, 2022 10:31 am

I mean the issues of persistent world roleplay and attempting to roleplay a dogmatic good is that there is no Dogma that is truly well defined. Combine this with the only true way to fully immerse oneself in the setting's definitions of good and evil is to sever our own definitions of it from the game, it's a near impossibility as people struggle with separation from IC and OOC as it is.

Real life dogmas and their real life religions usually have thousands of years of philosophical thought to guide the manifestation of such a dogma in day to day life. Paladins simply do not have enough material to work with to conduct themselves Properly(tm). Conducting themselves properly(tm) is almost always defined by the player's OOC logic as well. As someone who has read extensively DND splatbooks (Faiths & Avatars, Book of exalted deeds etc) on how to conduct themselves as a good aligned character. Something that is consistent throughout is they identiffy Evil Acts fairly clearly but never quite the proper doctrines. A continued question raised is for example how mercy and diligence compete with each other. Affording mercy to a terrible person can get others killed, yet diligently killing them may of snuffed out a great asset against Evil itself. The books never really give a concrete answer as to which is to be favoured and when, it's very much left up to the interpretation of the player. Wherein lies the real crux of why roleplaying any 'good' character, no one OOCly can truly agree on what 'good' actually is. DnD often forces you to 'fill in the gaps' when it comes to morality and for good reason, it doesn't have a 2000 year tradition to expand on its made up moral axioms. As such when put into a large persistent world you are going to have A LOT of teething issues and no one with any true authority to ICly begin defining doctrines or interpretations of historical events in lore. Take the classic issue of Helm v Mystra, people OOCly often can't even agree who was 'correct' in their conduct or if anyone was correct at all. (i can helm is badass)

Yet this does not even address one of the major issues of Paladin roleplay, which is the classic archetype of being hated by society while doing the right thing. There is a reason Jesus Christ was murdered by a mob, there is a reason Pontius Pilate sides with a mob over what he may feel is the 'right' thing to do, there is a reason the Pharisees desperately want Christ dead. Christ died betrayed by his friends and hated by his people, being mocked by his killers and begged by those who were dying next to him. It's a very depressing end most people do not want to subject their characters to. It's a classic archetype and people tend to really struggle with being hated. People tend to confuse passiveness with goodness and it creates an interesting dichotomy of do people prefer those who act decisively but are sometimes wrong or those who are so passive and nice but never act at all. Maybe it's in the middle. For these reasons I think it's somewhat silly to make paladin an application because it's very easy to read the lore and fill in the gaps with your own take on good and evil, yet it is far harder to apply moral axioms to situations as they arise in game. Truly bad paladin rpers should just be reported and rebuked.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by D4wN » Wed May 18, 2022 11:19 am

Aside from everything that was already said, I think a key to consider here is that extremes sometimes make for a difficult situation to collaborative RP in a game where we're all supposed to have fun and work with each other to create cool stories and Roleplay. My personal opinion is that sometimes I think it's okay to bend your character a little from hard lore to ensure a story can be told/unfold. Rather than just shut it down with instant PVP smash because.. Evil (or subjectively think evil). Especially since this is a server in which the expectations are that stories are player driven rather than DM driven. I see nothing wrong with Paladins showing mercy and compassion or even letting themselves be fooled once in a while if it helps a cool story. I always maintain it's a give and take with collaborative storytelling no matter what class you play.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Security_Blanket » Wed May 18, 2022 12:09 pm

Playing an open Banite, I've been on the receiving end of both excellent examples of paladins and poor examples, I can tell you that it's certainly not a paladin problem. I've probably had as many hostile interactions with elves as much as I have paladins, if it's any sort of issue its with zealotry, not just a class. I do think some players pick paladin because they think it gives them that license to kill, or use their "Chaotic Good" nature as an excuse to do the same. I remember one situation, without going into detail, a group of us Banites were in an area doing our thing when we had a few "good" characters roll up on us. We weren't doing anything evil, no summons, no captives, just doing our thing. They rolled up and said "So how are we going to do this?" while drawing their sword. PvP promptly followed, we all died and they patted themselves on the back for a job well done, the island is safe once more. But it didn't add anything to the situation, it didn't add to the RP currently going on, they just stopped it dead in its tracks.

My character doesn't hide his faith, and sometimes Banites feel safe enough to reach out to him in secret, something I can tell you about Banites that probably isn't true for most paladins and druids. Banites are EVERYWHERE! I'm not even referring to the NPC population of Banites which is the cherry on top to me, but there are so very many Banite players on the server and most of them are very quiet about it. If they were found out then everyone they RP with daily would turn sour towards them, I'm not even outing anyone because the amount of random Banites running around is staggering. Do paladins have this problem? Do druids have this problem? No faith on the surface faces more tyranny from players than Bane, it's kind of a running joke at this point. You look at the wiki and there's "Order of the Radiant Heart" right there, the only faction on the wiki that gets its own advertisement, then added advertisement in the form of players wearing those rings. Because it's easy and safe to be a part of the crowd.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed May 18, 2022 1:53 pm

D4wN wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:19 am
I see nothing wrong with Paladins showing mercy and compassion or even letting themselves be fooled once in a while if it helps a cool story.
I think this incidentally hits on a really good point: a paladin can be trying their damndest to do right but somehow do wrong. It could be because they were deliberately fed misinformation, or they could have just interpreted a situation incorrectly, but the fact an innocent was harmed doesn't mean they player isn't roleplaying properly. Arelith does not have accessible, objective truth, either available to the players or the character by which to judge their actions.

To take a dummy example, say Oath of Inquisition Paladin Percy of Lathlander is trotting through the Orclands and sees in a line: Jim, two wights, and Bob, running at breakneck pace. Paladin Percy should act, but how? The optimal answer would be different depending on if Jim and Bob are teaming up and/or who has summoned the wights, but Paladin Percy can't know those answers beyond reasonable doubt, because even if he tries to stop and question Jim and Bob, the guilty party would likely lie to try and save themselves ("Those are his wights; I was trying to run away!" "Those are his wights; I was chasing to try to destroy them!"). Jim or Bob could even send Paladin Percy tells "no but really, it was him"; there's nothing stopping people from lying OOC either. Paladin Percy just has to make a judgment call, and he could easily make the wrong one.

Situations like this happen all the time in subtler ways, where Evils manipulate Goods to strike down their rivals for them. If Abyssalist Anna convinces Paladin Percy that NG-on-paper Mage Melinda (who is close to uncovering Anna's secret) is actually an animator, produces witnesses (perhaps bribed, perhaps misled), is Percy's player "doing paladin wrong" if Percy believes Anna and starts to hunt the seemingly-unrepentant Melinda?

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Skibbles » Wed May 18, 2022 2:57 pm

D4wN wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:19 am
My personal opinion is that sometimes I think it's okay to bend your character a little from hard lore to ensure a story can be told/unfold.
I just want to snip this part from the rest here to point out that this isn't just a personal opinion.

This is the gold standard of the highest metric we have on Arelith. It's not just an opinion - this is an explicitly written objective to the highest benchmark the server tries to reward.
RPR 50 entry on the wiki wrote:They are willing to bend their character's concept and narrative to make the most fun out of each moment for the benefit of another player.
I'd say it's hardly up for debate that the server prefers the above, strongly, versus a dogmatic and unwavering adherence to lore at the cost to our fellow player.

I just don't think this is really a paladin issue specifically, but I think the paladin class is just a lot more likely to make a strict doctrine player much more visible as a miserable experience for many.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by D4wN » Wed May 18, 2022 4:32 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:57 pm
D4wN wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:19 am
My personal opinion is that sometimes I think it's okay to bend your character a little from hard lore to ensure a story can be told/unfold.
I just want to snip this part from the rest here to point out that this isn't just a personal opinion.

This is the gold standard of the highest metric we have on Arelith. It's not just an opinion - this is an explicitly written objective to the highest benchmark the server tries to reward.
RPR 50 entry on the wiki wrote:They are willing to bend their character's concept and narrative to make the most fun out of each moment for the benefit of another player.
I'd say it's hardly up for debate that the server prefers the above, strongly, versus a dogmatic and unwavering adherence to lore at the cost to our fellow player.

I just don't think this is really a paladin issue specifically, but I think the paladin class is just a lot more likely to make a strict doctrine player much more visible as a miserable experience for many.
I agree. Unfortunately I just rarely see it happen and the times where I do see it happen the players who do so are judged for it very harshly. Especially Paladins on this server are treated with a lot of judgement and people's opinions on how they should play their characters. It's honestly one of the major reasons I wouldn't play a paladin on this server again.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by msheeler » Wed May 18, 2022 5:05 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:53 pm
I think this incidentally hits on a really good point: a paladin can be trying their damndest to do right but somehow do wrong. It could be because they were deliberately fed misinformation, or they could have just interpreted a situation incorrectly, but the fact an innocent was harmed doesn't mean they player isn't roleplaying properly. Arelith does not have accessible, objective truth, either available to the players or the character by which to judge their actions.
I couldn't agree more with this statement.

What saddens me is this is exactly the sort of thing that can fall a paladin, yet very few people seem willing to role play out the consequences of these "miss judgements". In all my years here I am actually yet to meet a player who played a paladin that was actually remorseful for a deed misdone and sought out a means to repent. The classic fall from grace only to rise again.

Too many times I see characters that are tyrannical in their zealotry, its not just paladins after all, to an absolute fault. The thing is paladins should be held to account by their deity. When they fail their deity there should be a consequence.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Ork » Wed May 18, 2022 5:23 pm

I think a good portion of this is the fear of de-level, roll or retirement of a character. If you admit to a failure or fall, that might be opportunity for the DMs to inform you you can no longer have paladin levels. We must have a better way systematically in dealing with fallen paladins.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Xerah » Wed May 18, 2022 5:53 pm

It's definitely something I look out for when I'm playing my paladin.

On my first one, a trusted friend (who was actually a harper) ended up assassinating the Chancellor of Cordor while she was "running" the Radiant Heart (before it was what it is now). She left her position after that; turned over the guild house, etc.

You can still see the second time this happened on another character right as you enter the Radiant Heart area after the bridge with the reminder to the forgotten soldier. She was judged by a priest of Tyr to have some fault in her actions and was told to make a reminder of an intense focus on duty can result in tunnel vision and others getting hurt.

I think most people probably don't see this happening and they assume it doesn't. Or maybe I'm too optimistic about how often this happens.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Arienette » Wed May 18, 2022 5:53 pm

As I said before, it seems to me that 95 percent of paladins play their characters in a broad range of “acceptable” ways. Not always “perfect” due to players being imperfect, or intentionally playing through a range of behaviors that could be interpreted as too lax, too forgiving, too harsh, too militant; in order to tell a story.

A lot of leeway should (and seemingly is) given to people playing paladins in this way.

But you occasionally get paladins who take it way beyond the pale.

We should encourage DM staff to deal with these kinds of PCs and hope that they do.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed May 18, 2022 6:03 pm

I feel it's important to point out a few important distinctions, as the tone seems to lean the other way.

A paladin can fail at a task, without falling. A paladin cannot fail to uphold his oaths without seeking atonement, or he falls.

Every paladin order has different oaths, although all center in some way about upholding what is good and just (with varying levels of emphasis on each one, but it's important to remember that paladins of sufficiently high level literally emanate divine holiness in the form of an aura. Mystra is the NG goddess of magic, with a paladin order called the Knights of Mystic Fire. Their holiest mission is to protect the weave, repair it in places it's been damaged by wild magic or dead magic, and to use magic to make the world a better place.

Commoners in the realms don't mistrust paladins - while an evil person might not do a jig to be in the company of one, everyone in the realms knows they can trust a verified paladin, the same way the know to run for their lives if demons start showing up. Some of you are shaking your head and saying, 'why, that doesn't make sense?' Neither does us coming back to life with our gods' helps over and over- some divine things are just part of the atmosphere.

As far as paladins being unwilling to fall due to the loss of mechanical power - paladins who embrace their fall can become blackguards, and paladins who become blackguards with enough paladin levels have some of those levels converted to blackguard levels instantly. This doesn't work in NWN, but perhaps with some DM oversight it could? Or maybe a token could be created and given to players through such quests that enables such a translation just like a relevel token, binding the paladin to the same feats they selected at level up but replacing their class abilities.

Obviously discretion should apply, but I've kind of always thought being a paladin should come with temptations and tests. In NWN and Arelith, we regularly discuss the strength of divine dips and how much power 3-4 levels in a class provides a build. In a table-top game, most paladins at a table are constantly earning their powers and affirming their cause through trials and tribulations - other players at the table don't complain that the paladin has all these perks when the paladin is the only one in the party that didn't get a sweet magic weapon off the slave-owning merchant, for example.

I feel like paladin and blackguard should both be subject to this as part of the contract of playing them, just like you agree you're signing up for the hard road when you play a monster character.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed May 18, 2022 6:16 pm

D4wN wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:19 am
Aside from everything that was already said, I think a key to consider here is that extremes sometimes make for a difficult situation to collaborative RP in a game where we're all supposed to have fun and work with each other to create cool stories and Roleplay. My personal opinion is that sometimes I think it's okay to bend your character a little from hard lore to ensure a story can be told/unfold. Rather than just shut it down with instant PVP smash because.. Evil (or subjectively think evil). Especially since this is a server in which the expectations are that stories are player driven rather than DM driven. I see nothing wrong with Paladins showing mercy and compassion or even letting themselves be fooled once in a while if it helps a cool story. I always maintain it's a give and take with collaborative storytelling no matter what class you play.
Very well said. I think anyone (even more so if they were the villian) who has tried to tell a story or create a plot has come across this issue before. To often great ideas for drama and conflict are stopped before they start with a heavy handed, inflexible, PvP approach.

Its ok if "good" losses at times and "evil" wins OR vice-versa. To often the server feels locked into preset status it can never really break from. At least in my experience.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Wed May 18, 2022 7:59 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:22 pm
...
1. Your average person probably doesn't know the alignment of the gods, because alignment is meta-information. . . .
Just wanted to comment on this, as it's a common misconception. Alignments are absolutely not meta information (though for the purposes of Arelith, it is difficult to discern them). Alignments are very real and very tangible parts of every character, as real as their hair color or eye color. There are spells to detect alignment, which exist because people are aware of alignments in-setting.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Royal Blood » Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pm

I don't think you have to 'let' your character be fooled necessarily. If you can develop like a good idea of how your character views their surroundings then you make decisions from that perspective. So it's not like OOC You know you're being fooled so you choose to allow it or not. You just consider the situation from the eyes of your character, the environment their in, experiences etc and decide what their actual course of action would be. I enjoy finding constructive ways around 'road blocks' that are IC and not just purely OOC injection of choice for the sake of plot.

I wouldn't report a paladin for anything per say either. I've never completed the first like NWN campaign but I'm familiarish with the story. It's about a fallen paladin. I am like both FOR standard class play styles and against it. I think if /everyone/ is out to be super unique and bend the rules of a class it gets stale really fast... But tasteful and RP driven deviations from the norms are, I think, very potent and compelling. In my opinion, all of the classes, alignments, races, etc, are just a base from which to build upon. Elves, humans, drow, Gnomes, whatever all have traits that are building blocks of that base to help you 'build' a narrative and create the like personality of your character.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu May 19, 2022 2:33 am

This is solved by story-oriented DMs that actually give a fig and judiciously nudge alignments or give out Falls.

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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu May 19, 2022 3:38 am

Cool. Love these conversations. Here's some food for thought.

1. Paladins are always falling
By a lot of the rules as written, and even in dogma versus code, it's basically impossible for a paladin to exist - especially Arelith. I think if you approach paladin roleplay as one of constant failure/redemption, then I think you'll always play a great paladin. Paladins who are too certain, too logical, and do not interrogate the philosophical underpinnings of their class will always come across too brutish and short.

2. It's cool to die
It's inherently a class of conflict. You gotta be okay with drawing swords against a Banite who will not convert or waiver. This isn't malice or PvP-hungriness. You can try to let them surrender. But you gotta get on the field of battle and smite for what's right. If you always approach playing a paladin as, "this day, I will lose" - then you're in for a great time. Because if you approach conflict with a sense of conviction and character, evil characters will note this. It's probably why people like playing Banites, because they're often the flip side of this.

3. The best Banite is a converted one, not a dead one
Strategically, any 'smart' paladin on the server would and should realize a conversion is a massive tactical 2-for-1. You've disposed of an enemy and gained an ally, an ally who knows the secrets of the enemy. Should be a really big priority of engaging with evil to try to convert!
This also sets you up for being seduced by the Dark Side.

4. Best paladin conflict is good vs good, not good vs evil
A paladin is particular manifestation of the Lawful Good alignment. A paladin is concerned both with moral victory, but also *how* that victory is achieved (see Ork's stuff about poison, as a very blunt example). More philosophically, how much moral compromise was required to defeat the Banites? This should weigh on paladins.
My favourite conflicts across all my LG characters (paladins included) has never been with Abyssals or Infernalists, etc., but with other 'Good Guys.'

5. Don't be incorruptible, but don't hog the spotlight
A tempted paladin is a great flawed character who can often create really cool stories for lots of groups. But this should really be executed wisely and scarcely. In general, the ideas of redemption (truly) should be great heroic arcs. Be mindful of how much you wade into 'moral ambiguity' - if you really wanted to play a moral ambiguous character, play that. Don't play a paladin. You smite for what's right. You don't maybe do this thing that's kind of like smiting depending on whether or not other people think you're doing the right thing.
Nah man, Ilmater wants you to kill the Talonite dead. Let the Talonite try to corrupt someone else. (but see also #3, welcome to the conflict of playing a paladin! woo. so much fun)
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu May 19, 2022 6:40 am

Arienette wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 6:03 pm
IMO, most paladins on Arelith are played “fine”.

In my experience 95 percent of paladins fall somewhere on a spectrum from “slightly too chill and open minded” all the way to “slightly more hardass than is probably appropriate”.

The 5 percent or so who fall outside that range into a TRULY inappropriate set of behaviors are a small number of outliers. I would like the DM staff to handle these people individually rather than any kind of sweeping policy changes.

I sort of take it with a grain of salt when people say “a lot” of paladins are too much this or too much that.

I have received OOC abuse via tells on multiple occasions from being haranguing me for my “poor Paladin behavior” when my character’s actions were objectively appropriate Paladin behavior.
I'm more or less going to echo this post. It's very good.

As a serial paladin player I can confirm that it's basically impossible to play a paladin that everyone agrees is "just right". If you show mercy, allow your character to display (perhaps misplaced) faith in the ability of a wrongdoer to improve, use -subdual instead of lethal damage, or cooperate with an evil that is merely avaricious and selfish in order to thwart an evil that extorts, murders, kidnaps, and enslaves, you will upset a fraction of the playerbase that thinks a paladin ought always slay evil no matter the form. If you take a slightly harder line, and start killing people you will upset an entirely different fraction of people who think that good should use violence only as a last resort, or that a truly compassionate character would give more chances.

And this isn't even touching the utter, raw hash of the class that a lot of newer RPers will make just by being, well, new.

And this is why Arelith has a somewhat wider set of goalposts on paladin behavior than you might be used to from a pen and paper DM, because the DMs are from the same playerbase that's going to be fractionally upset no matter what a paladin does. Therefore, if you were to isolate each DM and ask them to define, without consulting one another, what a paladin is and isn't to a sufficient degree of precision to make an enforceable standard, you probably wouldn't get any of them to agree exactly on what a paladin should ideally be. You probably would, however, get a shortlist of things that the entire team agrees should not be part of a paladin's roleplay. As such, we've sort of reached a quiet community consensus, I think, that players ought be given the benefit of the doubt: so long as it appears that the player is putting in a good faith effort to play the class on the level, and is avoiding that short list of things that everyone more or less agrees no true paladin would do, we don't worry too much about them.

If you play a paladin, OP, I probably think some of the things you are doing could be better. But unless you are one of the egregiously bad ones, I won't worry too much about it. I'd encourage you to take the same approach towards others. Most of the people you think are doing it wrong are probably in Arienette's 95%, who I would generally concur range from "somewhat less zealous than I'd like" to "somewhat more quick to fight than I would like". And I can think of at least two cases (helpfully, one on either side) that were addressed by a DM as falling into the 5% of actionable paladins: One paladin who was tolerant to the point of negligence because the necromancer was hot, and one paladin who played the "I haven't fallen yet so my actions must be justified" card on his way to a murder spree. I won't share names, at least one of those players is still around in some form or other. In both cases, the "egregiously unpaladiny" stuff was handled by the team.

And frankly, I'm ok with this approach. I would much rather we just watch out for the super bad cases than fuss over what the exact gold standard paladin ought to be.
Ork wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:22 am
I usually realize that I'm crushing it as a paladin if another character claims mine is "false". Paladins are divisive characters in D&D, not because of their alignment but because they stand for something - and that something is often dogmatic and unshakeable.

Paladins take special care to play, and consideration of their oaths should be rigid. I'd report paladins that did the following:
• using poison
• hiring an assassin
• killing someone bound or incapacitated
• failing/refusing to protect a defenseless
• profiting from murder
• failing to uphold deity mantras

I do think if we're going to make the most of this thread, here's my challenge to all the paladin players out there - find a way to develop an identity beyond the label. A lathandarite paladin might take a jog around Cordor square every dawn and then enjoy a warm breakfast in the Nomad. A Hoarite paladin might enjoy spending his day sharing a beer with aggrieved patrons and equip them to overcome their own grievances. A mystarran paladin might sit in on a class in the arcane tower. An ilmateri paladin might get blackout drunk to save the local booze-hound from a similar fate. Find a way to breath a different activity into your character's day that is altogether mundane & simple. It's hard writing well-rounded paladins, but I found success in doing these things often and frequently when I played mine.
I also think ork's post is good.

Don't be afraid to breathe life into your paladin. If you never play the class beyond "I am lawful good and I fight bad guys", you're not going to come up with a compelling character. In fact, I would go one step further: You'll encounter a lot of advice that tells you to play a paladin as an exemplar of all lawful and goodly virtues. Disregard all of it.

Instead, play the paladin as a fallible mortal being trying to live in accordance to specific and defining lawful and goodly virtues. Identify those things that inspire your paladin to dedicate their life to upholding, and uphold them. Identify the ways in which the paladin strives to more perfectly embody those ideals, despite their mortal imperfections.

An aside on this point: I've seen a couple of people say something along the lines of "more paladins should be willing to fall when they make mistakes or fall short of their ideal". Or that unknowingly "doing wrong" can and should more often lead a paladin to fall.

This is categorically wrong. A paladin does not fall for unwittingly allowing or committing an evil act, nor does a paladin fall for making a bad decision that could have been much better. A paladin falls for one of three specific things (source: Player's Handbook, 3rd edition, page 43, paragraph 6 in its entirety):

1. When a paladin ceases to be lawful and good, they fall. This fall represents a personal misalignment with the call of a paladin. The former paladin's heart just isn't in the right place for the job anymore: a critical failing. They haven't really done anything bad or evil, they just don't fit anymore as a paladin, and cease to be one.

2. When a paladin willfully (that is, voluntarily and intentionally and with the specific intent to do so) commits an evil act (please be cognizant of the difference between an evil act and a wrong choice), the paladin falls. This is the category everyone thinks of for the classic "fallen paladin", but it takes more than accidentally or unknowingly doing evil.

3. When a paladin grossly violates their code of conduct (i.e. violates their oath). See Ork's post above. This should look different for each paladin. A Helmite paladin might fall for betraying trust (such as for breaking a sworn promise). An Ilmateri paladin might fall for treating a helpless person with cruelty, but might break a promise to protect the helpless without falling. A paladin of Tyr might feel compelled to uphold a just law against a thief, while a paladin of Lathander might decide that mercy might yield more good than sternness.

Outside of these three things, however, a paladin generally does not fall simply for being a flawed exemplar of their professed ideal. As such, I encourage paladin players to let their characters be people trying to live up to an unobtainable ideal, rather than perfect automatons consistently trying to judge which choices will maximize the total quantity of law and good in the multiverse.


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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Wethrinea » Thu May 19, 2022 8:30 am

My favourite NPC paladin has always been Keldorn in Baldurs Gate 2. I think he is a pretty good example of the paladin that balances duty, honour, and importantly, humility. And he has a pretty sweet personal arc where his personal feelings and sense of law and honour come in conflict with compassion and love.

I get all warm and fussy whenever I see such things.
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Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 am

Food for thought:

Falling from grace is a form of character development = consistent and intentional shift in behavior and values.
While this can be a way of telling a compelling story by the virtue of representing a character arc in on its own, it understandably comes with consequences that are meant to deter players from taking this route as, quite frankly, we don't want to see a paladin fall every week.

Paladins are people (who are faulty) = they are prone to the odd mistake, error and lapse in judgment the same way as the next person.
This adds compexity to the character and makes them generally more interesting. That being said, even a singular action can still trigger an avalanche of events and lay the foundation for a narrative. Paladins stirring the pot with questionable actions too often can get awkward after a while just as well. They don't even need to be the same person - if paladin Bob got away with something dubious last week, why should paladin Joe doing the same thing this week be any different?


This means that paladin players can figure out a way of eating their cake and having it too, which I suspect is the reason why it is such a hot topic.

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