Capture RP

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Royal Blood
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:55 pm

Complicated subject. To be brief, I play a prominent Drow so I'm involved or at a minimum aware of a lot of raids.

I think we need to have more tools for conflict resolution. Raiding and pvp is such a narrow scope.

That being said, we have as much narrative freedom as we give ourselves. I think, however, PVP becomes prominent because #1 it's kinda fun. And #2 it's sort of a way that forces narrative change, to a degree.

Last, I think both captors and captured need to work on being creative. And when you have a creative captor don't just blow them off or get released and go back to doing the exact thing you were doing before.

When we don't let things impact our characters, or the narrative to move, things get messy. But I say that with respect to the players because I do believe in us retaining agency.

I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

Arigard
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Arigard » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:00 pm

Choofed wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:35 pm
Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 am

is still is profitable to the captors

Most people are just sick to death of "We want 2 million gold for a corporal" which constitutes probably close 50 man hours of work just to enable someone who ran into a surface lag pit full of traps against 25 underdarkers with the people they found aroudn the fire pit.

This is honest feedback: You're asking rediculous sums, I don't have the time to hand away my progression and likely the entire government paychecks and events funds just to facilitate this.

Some people might say my position here is toxic, but it's my honest belief.

This is a little disingenuous considering almost every captive has been offered the ability to work off a debt, via active RP - to zero. In fact the only necessary reason to pay off a bounty, has been the desperation at which players have seemingly OOC wanted captives to return. We've also seen multiple occasions where it's been said by certain characters there would be at no time a bounty paid (so we have started to allow for the captives themselves to work at their release through RP) and then the next day, unexpectedly we have been approached with the gold.

So, once again we return back to a point where any kind of incovenience is seemingly just being instantly seen as something to get rid as quickly as possible and not used as an RP tool in some form for character progression, or something more. Nobody is setting out to simply drain the gold reserves of the entire surface, but I'm not really sure what people expect a bounty to consist off when 99/100 there's absolutely no room to maneover provided - or any kind of actual meaningful negotiation.

Being walked up to by Billy McPallyGood and being told you're dispicable and should burn in hell for eternity and you will be smited at every oppurtunity, isn't exactly the strongest - or smartest negotiating position to open with (and trust me this happens a LOT). Magistrasa said it best, honestly - that paragraph should be pinned to the front page of the Arelith website.

At some point you need to be able to prove via IC action, wisdom, intelligence and roleplay that your character is the things you want them to be, rather than just sticking that you're the leetest - chadest - tallest - handsomest special person in the universe in your bio. Sometimes that means thinking outside of the box, or at the very least engaging with other characters in a way that isn't simply a very obvious dismissal due to inconvenience.

Ultimately, I know first hand that many of the players dealing with these captures are spending hours (and sometimes days) dedicating time to building story for the characters that have been captured, coming up with ideas for fun things they can do, making sure they aren't left alone and generally focussing 100% on them for long periods of time to make sure their time is fun. If you want to be included, go to lengths to be included. If you have ideas, share them OOC. There are a series of challenges being provided to certain selections of the playerbase that are being enjoyed by those who are directly involved - but yet those that aren't involved are creating the most drama - and yet offer no solutions outside of we don't like, please stop. These RP scenes are not about you, or your characters, as much as you convince yourself they are - they are being set at a pace and for the enjoyment of those being captured and those players if they are enjoying those RP interactions have the right to be able to do so without being berrated about it during, or after the fact, or pressured OOC out of doing something they clearly want to be involved in.

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Baronze
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Baronze » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:42 pm

I'll chime in, having been on both sides of this equation many many times now, both as a antagonist and the victim.

Bazelgeuse wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:24 am

There's one thing thats bugged me for a while about capture RP, and it's the OOC shaming of people who agree to go along with capture RP, a roleplayed-out curse or something that isn't an explicitly mechanical effect, or RP beyond "i kill you, now you respawn".

It happens. I don't know why it happens. It's discouraging.

In the past I've been told by multiple people who were captured/cursed/etc that they were pushed OOCly to accept the solution provided to them by the rescuers as soon as possible. I think Arigard hits the nail on the head. That there exists a very toxic undertone to it, often tied to potential or current romantic interests. Worst of this type of IC/OOC dissolution often manifests in kidnapping and curse scenarios in my experience. I don't believe the solution to it is through any administrative action, but simply pushing people who have these types of toxic OOC reactions away personally. A healthy OOC friend will support the entertaining RP you find yourself involved in, regardless of vexation it might cause their character.

I think another portion of frustration from these types of encounters arises from the fact that many people do not approach RP honestly, as a character in this DnD setting. RP is a reciprocal affair, and if your reaction to being antagonized is: "I don't know what you want from me. I don't know anything. I will agree to no demands. I refuse to even acknowledge you as a character." then the resultant RP you will be met will be just as low quality.

As for a review of the current iteration of the raiders (who seem to be very successful), my personal experiences were rather positive. I got captured by a group of them on my half-giant in Sibayad whilst doing writs, after they baited a group of us out of the city. After being left alone, and subdualed, I sat down, RP'd my loss and simply asked: "What is next?". The raiders who captured me were rather accommodating in terms of what I wanted to go along with, offered me multiple paths(Some I had to turn down because it was too similar to a gimmick I was doing on a previous character in recent memory). I agreed to duel their champion in the Underdark (their reason for going on the surface was to have him fight someone on 1v1 for training). Some time later traveled to Andunor, and engaged him in the arena. As a result my character both ended up gaining connections in a part of the server that I likely would not have engaged with too much, some interesting scenes, and an arc pushing me to develop his personality more. All in all, cool stuff. It is obvious to me that these players are not here to "own" the hapless masses but to, dog forbid, RP as evil characters and have fun.

Image

As a final word, I will quote myself from a previous thread like a bozo:

Baronze wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:49 pm

You should consider that your fellow players, who may be playing evil monsters, are trying to use conflict as a means to further the overarching storyline of the server, develop their characters through interactions with yours, and offer the opportunity to as many people as they can to be a part of it.

Last edited by Baronze on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bazelgeuse
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Bazelgeuse » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:05 pm

I like your post Baronze and thank you for sharing youre experiences, I'd have a more thoughtful reply but my health is being bullied and words are hard.

You (and others whose names I can't remember) are 100% on the nose, RP is a two way street, it takes two to tango, etc

In all my time on Arelith there's been only one instance I can think of where my character was captured and I had enjoyable RP come from it. She traded her freedom for the life of someone else ("spare her and I'll willingly go with you") and I worked out OOC with the other party that my character is a person of her word, but if people come by to pull her out of there I'll go with it. There was acceptance all around, I had some enjoyable RP with the captors, a group of people got to get my character ouf of there later on, no lasting OOC bitterness or hostility.

I think all of the unpleasant or memorably negative PVP interactions I've had were just insta-bash after/during the fight, or being instantly yoinked as soon as the other side raised me

One of the weirdest takes I've ever seen regarding capture RP went something like "<player> OOCly agreed to the raise and wants to go along with capture RP, therefore <player's character> is a traitor and must be killed" I was like wait huh what???


MintoCloudpaw
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Re: Capture RP

Post by MintoCloudpaw » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:52 pm

D4wN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:13 am

I guess I'm just not sure what the magical formula is, but reading some of these comments I don't think the crux of the issue lies between the captive and captor. I think it lies with the people on the outside perhaps being impacted the most. So what's the answer? You can't not care, but you also have absolutely 0 control over the situation. So what do you do?

I do however still think moderation is key and fatigue is a genuine issue. Consideration should be given for this.

I think these are the key points ultimately. Feeling ICly helpless about a situation is great, that breeds interesting story. Feeling OOCly helpless about a situation I think is where most people's frustration come from; be it captive RP or any type of RP.

When your loved one is captured, you can't ICly not care about it. It's made very clear ICly that if you don't do as the captor says then your loved one is doomed to a horrible death, and if you take death seriously then you can't just shrug it off and hope their god brings them back. Also it'd be pretty mean to the captive to just suddenly not care about them either, because that dismisses the gravity of their story.

At the same time, I don't /want/ to free them quickly, OOCly, because then it ruins the fun plot of the captor/captive; the novel experience they get to play. What's the point of setting up a story that then gets ended immediately by a yoink or a million gold?

Having absolutely zero control over the situation is the problem; you ICly have to RP against something where your RP can be entirely ignored by the captors if they so choose. You can't RP with the captive because they're not accessible (except the rare case where they have GSF illusion I suppose).

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:33 am

I have been sitting on some thoughts that I intend to turn into a whole stupid multiparagraph post again, but I'll keep this comment mercifully short for now:

I think the idea that you have "no control over the narrative" and are being "excluded from roleplay" are exactly the sentiment that needs to change. People who hold that sentiment need to challenge it within themselves. Your character being ill-positioned to rescue an ally does not mean they are being cut out of the story. They're simply experiencing the story from another side. A good roleplayer works with the tools and knowledge at their disposal. With the OOC understanding of your narrative limitations, you don't need to act like you have to just keep bashing your head against the wall in the same way over and over again. And if that's pretty much your only approach to this narrative thread, and it constantly leads to a stressful and uninteresting experience, aren't you the crazy one by not changing your tactics and expecting different result? It just strikes me as selfish to presume you have a right to "narrative control" in a scenario that clearly suggests your character should take a supporting role. You can always engage with the storyline, even when you can't always directly affect its outcome. I won't pretend it isn't a challenge to play out, but it's profoundly disappointing to see how little the server has evolved when it comes to handling these kinds of scenarios.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the point being made about having narrative control. Every player on the server has control over what happens to their character. You can't just stab someone's eye out and expect them to be blind forever. You can kill someone in PVP but other than bragging rights, you can't force that character to walk with a limp forever because of it. You can capture someone but can't raise them without consent.

Often times actions have consequences that you have limited control over; if you run for High Sherriff and get exiled after losing, that was a consequence for your narrative choice. Yes you're now more limited because of your exile, but you still have narrative control of your character throughout. You could sneak into Guldorand and form a coup, you could go elsewhere and ignore the exile entirely until that High Sherriff loses. You could do any number of things in order to respond to what is happening around you.

Playing a supportive role IS narrative control over your character. It's is definitely not selfish to want to play a supportive role in a story/relationship you have a lot of investment in. Calling that selfish is like saying it's selfish for the Chancellor to want to be involved in the war affecting Cordor/Guldorand.

When it comes to captive RP, there is as Dawn said, 0 control over the situation. "Give me x Million Gold or your loved one gets it" is not a supportive role, that's playing a piñata. That is lacking narrative control, as your only option is to either pay up (and thus end the captor's/captive's fun RP early which sucks to do) or come up with reasons why you can't do it and try to avoid the IC backlash that you didn't save someone's loved one. I don't think it's selfish to expect more from RP than being a piñata for someone else. Obviously, you can go RP with other people still on the surface, you can try to rally warriors, try to raise funds, cry in a circle with your friends over the terrible tragedy. You can make RP from it. But that doesn't mean you can't also actually be a part of the story unfolding with a character you've invested significant time into the relationship.

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:52 pm

I agree that flat gold sums as ransom are probably the least interesting solution a captor can offer. Obviously nothing stops the captive's allies from making a counter-offer of something else entirely, but demanding gold at the onset creates a certain tone around the entire plot thread. Something far more narratively compelling might be to ask for a valuable item that doesn't technically exist, and so that creates an opportunity for the allies to explore the creation or "discovery" of the item demanded, and further leads to speculation about what the nefarious villains could want with such a thing. This item can then be used for future antagonistic endeavors, which will carry much more weight as the victims will understand that they aided in the creation of this new threat. Alternatively, if slavery or servitude is on the table, a captor could suggest a swap: "We captured a warrior, which are far less profitable as a servant than a mage or a skilled tradesman. You'll get your friend/family/lover back, if you give us someone of equal or greater value instead. We'll get back to you once you take a week to think it over!" These sorts of immaterial exchanges help to create more long-lasting consequences for every side of the transaction, straining some relationships and deepening others. It also makes it seem like the captive's eventual release isn't based on some arbitrary contrivance that might otherwise potentially call into question the peril they claim to have faced.

I do however very much agree with this, these are great ideas. But you'll also note, that these all give narrative control back to the loved ones, rather than just full-stopping people with a GP or Torture routine. RP is very give and take, if one side is giving nothing then it shuts the other side out.

Keep in mind that this is as much on the captor as the loved ones to organize though; if neither side is willing to budge then the RP is just stonewalled. That's usually when the loved ones feel helpless OOC. Feeling helpless OOC comes from a lack of narrative control. Feeling helpless IC is great, but only properly happens when you feel you have control over your own RP.

It's why people felt really good about Urshak's Dis fights, because everyone had narrative control. People got to support him even if just cheering from the stands, a few people got to fight with him, and the underdarkers got to cheer on their side. Plus as a bonus, people got to RP with their foes they normally wouldn't get to.


Also 100% agree that anyone putting OOC trouble on someone for allowing themselves to be captured and doing capture RP should get reported and a stern talking to. Definitely not okay. It's a story, work with it!


Ellisaria
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Ellisaria » Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:40 pm

You can capture someone but can't raise them without consent.

Is this actually a rule? I could not find it in the Wiki.
Or are you referring to the "do you accept being raised" dialogue?

I ask because, as I mentioned in my prior post, I consented to being raised thinking that it was my side doing it, as the shrine dialogue does not give a "Underdark PC is trying to raise you; do you accept?" blurb. As I understand it, Raise Dead and Resurrection do give the name of the PC making the attempt (but please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Basically, as a player, I had no idea that my PC was being taken captive until she woke up in the UD. I'm not going to kick up a fuss about it, because the RP has happened and cannot be retconned, but I do feel that there is some room for improvement to ensure that players fully understand what is happening.


MintoCloudpaw
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Re: Capture RP

Post by MintoCloudpaw » Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:47 pm

Ellisaria wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:40 pm

You can capture someone but can't raise them without consent.

Is this actually a rule? I could not find it in the Wiki.
Or are you referring to the "do you accept being raised" dialogue?

I ask because, as I mentioned in my prior post, I consented to being raised thinking that it was my side doing it, as the shrine dialogue does not give a "Underdark PC is trying to raise you; do you accept?" blurb. As I understand it, Raise Dead and Resurrection do give the name of the PC making the attempt (but please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Basically, as a player, I had no idea that my PC was being taken captive until she woke up in the UD. I'm not going to kick up a fuss about it, because the RP has happened and cannot be retconned, but I do feel that there is some room for improvement to ensure that players fully understand what is happening.

It is an actual rule, yes. The rule falls under the 48 hour rule: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#Rules_of_Engagement

Specifically:

The 48 hour rule is considered active between the character(s) who attacked and the character(s) who died.

Accepting a resurrection from the player(s) who killed you means that you agree to waive the 48 hour rule. Be careful doing this. It means you can be killed again. Consider roleplaying the gravity of having just been murdered and act like a prisoner.

Both sides have to waive the 48 hour rule to interact after PVP that leads to death. Raise dead/Resurrection give you the message which asks if you want to be revived and thus count as consent.

In your actual case, -technically- they raised you without consent, but it sounds like an accident!

I think that you should lodge a bug report that raising from an altar doesn't tell you who is raising you. You can't give consent without that information, after all. The whole reason those dialogues were added were so that people didn't have to send tells to ask if they consented to being raised (and reduce chances of accidentally raising before asking).


Power Word, Haste
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Power Word, Haste » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:16 pm

Arigard wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:00 pm

...almost every captive has been offered the ability to work off a debt, via active RP - to zero. In fact the only necessary reason to pay off a bounty, has been the desperation at which players have seemingly OOC wanted captives to return. We've also seen multiple occasions where it's been said by certain characters there would be at no time a bounty paid (so we have started to allow for the captives themselves to work at their release through RP) and then the next day, unexpectedly we have been approached with the gold.

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said better by others in this thread, but as someone who has participated in the captor side of this, it is certainly true that paying big ransoms is not the only way for the captive to be set free. In some cases, our characters have flat out refused to negotiate a ransom in favor of more entertaining methods for everyone. The above line from Arigard about some captives' friends being basically just annoyed at us and wanting to get it all over with as fast as possible by shoving gold towards us is very true and probably where this misconception comes from, as they would go tell everyone how they had to pay a ton of gold to get their friend back from the UD raiders.

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 am

excellent post that sums everything up perfectly

Drethian has the best post of what we have been doing and what we intend to do with our raiding and capture RP, and if you haven't read it or you skimmed it, I would highly suggest you read it all. The RP leading up to raids, the big, epic clashes during, and RP after whether it is us running for our lives to lick our wounds or leaving victorious to raise captives to RP with has been some of the most fun I've had on Arelith in a very long time and the extremely satisfactory feedback from the captives lets me know we're doing something right.


Drethian
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Drethian » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm

D4wN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:13 am

I do however still think moderation is key and fatigue is a genuine issue. Consideration should be given for this.

For what it's worth, we're definitely going to be toning down the frequency of raids. A DM recently reached out to us and gave us a specific time interval that they'd like us to wait (at minimum) between raids. They also gave us a larger, ideal time interval that they'd prefer. For this last raid, we deliberately waited longer than was requested of us. So, while it may feel as though raids have been quite frequent (which historically they have been) the pace is definitely going to slow down.

In regards to those negotiating on behalf of their captured friends:

They have a lot more influence and control over the situation than they may realize. The whole purpose of negotiation, really, is to work together to formulate a solution that both sides agree to. There is room for creativity on the side of the friends here too. If they don't like the terms, they can absolutely make alternative propositions. And as captors, we'll definitely consider them! It definitely doesn't have to be gold.

The same group of people who have done the majority of the most recent ransom roleplay are also the ones who held the highly-praised event with Urshak in Dis. While it didn't benefit our characters monetarily, we chose to take the L from a profit standpoint to offer the captive an enjoyable story and path to freedom. So, we really do try to branch out and be creative.

Slavers naturally want some sort of profit from their trade, however. Which is why, of course, there's been ransoms at times. But we do offer other avenues, particularly if the captives are keen on it. And we'll continue trying to find new avenues as we go forwards. We're ever open to ideas!


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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:30 pm

The only thing I can advise, for both parties, in all of this is to allow everyone as much IC agency as possible, and to be understanding and supportive OOC.

If you ever find yourself taking it out on a fellow player for going along with an RP situation with which they are comfortable, or letting your OOC upset over the situation bleed over into IC, take a step back and think about things for a moment or two. In this case, what you are probably upset over is your character having to take a loss, even if you prefer to phrase it as being "exhausted by repeat incidents". Also, any time you're conflating an OOC willingness of a captive to roll with an extended situation with a strain of IC treason, you are 1000% too involved with the situation on an OOC level, and need that space. This is just not okay. You do not own another person's narrative arc, and nor do you have any grounds to demand that they accommodate your convenience in their own roleplay.

On the side of the captors, it's probably worth bearing in mind that a lot of the urge to muster the posse and liberate the captives may have less to do with a desire to always win (though this can sometimes be the case), and more to do with the, imo understandable, desire for players who may have missed the first incident to go do something about it. If I take Vamanos Rivorndir captive while the entire faction is offline, due to being euroid, I probably should not immediately attribute a mass muster response in the aftermath to total malice, and should accept that on some level, these players will want to involve themselves IC, and that it is not always ICly appropriate for their involvement to consist of negotiating with me (after all, "we do not negotiate with terrorists" is an acceptable IC response). While it's great to offer the friends of the captives creative ways to free said captives, there should also be at least a little understanding that some of them may see this as an opportunity to engage in a more decisive contest; so long as nobody is doing this in mean spirits, that's fine.

Short version: don't give each other grief ooc about roleplay. give each other all the ic grief about roleplay. (Most of) the people you RP with are (probably) not doing so with the ooc intention of screwing you over, so stop treating them like they are.


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Amateur Hour
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:47 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:30 pm

On the side of the captors, it's probably worth bearing in mind that a lot of the urge to muster the posse and liberate the captives may have less to do with a desire to always win (though this can sometimes be the case), and more to do with the, imo understandable, desire for players who may have missed the first incident to go do something about it. If I take Vamanos Rivorndir captive while the entire faction is offline, due to being euroid, I probably should not immediately attribute a mass muster response in the aftermath to total malice, and should accept that on some level, these players will want to involve themselves IC, and that it is not always ICly appropriate for their involvement to consist of negotiating with me (after all, "we do not negotiate with terrorists" is an acceptable IC response). While it's great to offer the friends of the captives creative ways to free said captives, there should also be at least a little understanding that some of them may see this as an opportunity to engage in a more decisive contest; so long as nobody is doing this in mean spirits, that's fine.

I'd like to emphasize this.

About a year ago on my most recent main, I was approached OOC about a potential capture plot in which the prospective capturers and I ultimately decided it would be a really bad idea resulting in a net loss of fun for everyone involved precisely because everyone on the prospective rescuer side was a relatively-low-INT, super-low-WIS character whose primary problem-solving strategy was, realistically, "apply weapon until problem is gone."

Really, when you're capturing someone, you're starting two story arcs: one for the captured and one for prospective rescuers, because it is an extremely reasonable reaction to want to save someone you care about from harm. And unless you've captured Arelith's most irritating resident or a brand new character, there's going to be at least one person in the "prospective rescuer" category.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
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D4wN
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Re: Capture RP

Post by D4wN » Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:40 am

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm
D4wN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:13 am

I do however still think moderation is key and fatigue is a genuine issue. Consideration should be given for this.

For what it's worth, we're definitely going to be toning down the frequency of raids. A DM recently reached out to us and gave us a specific time interval that they'd like us to wait (at minimum) between raids. They also gave us a larger, ideal time interval that they'd prefer. For this last raid, we deliberately waited longer than was requested of us. So, while it may feel as though raids have been quite frequent (which historically they have been) the pace is definitely going to slow down.

Keep in mind your group is also not the only one that raids. I think this can skew the perception on how many times the Surface might feel raided. If your group raids once a week for example and then 2 or 3 other groups have other skirmishes I can guarantee you that people will still associate it as one and the same. Trust me, I've been there XD Having some sort of agreement amongst one side to tone it down and who goes when might help with this. But it's ultimately hard to avoid. Just something to keep in mind I guess.

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm

In regards to those negotiating on behalf of their captured friends:

They have a lot more influence and control over the situation than they may realize. The whole purpose of negotiation, really, is to work together to formulate a solution that both sides agree to. There is room for creativity on the side of the friends here too. If they don't like the terms, they can absolutely make alternative propositions. And as captors, we'll definitely consider them! It definitely doesn't have to be gold.

The same group of people who have done the majority of the most recent ransom roleplay are also the ones who held the highly-praised event with Urshak in Dis. While it didn't benefit our characters monetarily, we chose to take the L from a profit standpoint to offer the captive an enjoyable story and path to freedom. So, we really do try to branch out and be creative.

Slavers naturally want some sort of profit from their trade, however. Which is why, of course, there's been ransoms at times. But we do offer other avenues, particularly if the captives are keen on it. And we'll continue trying to find new avenues as we go forwards. We're ever open to ideas!

The problem with this is historic trends and behaviors. The Surface has a long history of being frequently raided by Andunor and having very limited options to get a loved one back on the Surface side other than: Pay or they die. So this is a stigma that needs to somehow be broken. I don't know how or whether it ever will. But just to provide you some context around why people might assume they have limited options. I honestly think this is the most creative I have ever seen Andunor with their captives. And even then you still hear a lot of: "Pay us 2M." It doesn't help people often focus only on the negative.

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LurkingShadow
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Re: Capture RP

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:55 am

D4wN wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:40 am
Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm
D4wN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:13 am

I do however still think moderation is key and fatigue is a genuine issue. Consideration should be given for this.

For what it's worth, we're definitely going to be toning down the frequency of raids. A DM recently reached out to us and gave us a specific time interval that they'd like us to wait (at minimum) between raids. They also gave us a larger, ideal time interval that they'd prefer. For this last raid, we deliberately waited longer than was requested of us. So, while it may feel as though raids have been quite frequent (which historically they have been) the pace is definitely going to slow down.

Keep in mind your group is also not the only one that raids. I think this can skew the perception on how many times the Surface might feel raided. If your group raids once a week for example and then 2 or 3 other groups have other skirmishes I can guarantee you that people will still associate it as one and the same. Trust me, I've been there XD Having some sort of agreement amongst one side to tone it down and who goes when might help with this. But it's ultimately hard to avoid. Just something to keep in mind I guess.

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm

In regards to those negotiating on behalf of their captured friends:

They have a lot more influence and control over the situation than they may realize. The whole purpose of negotiation, really, is to work together to formulate a solution that both sides agree to. There is room for creativity on the side of the friends here too. If they don't like the terms, they can absolutely make alternative propositions. And as captors, we'll definitely consider them! It definitely doesn't have to be gold.

The same group of people who have done the majority of the most recent ransom roleplay are also the ones who held the highly-praised event with Urshak in Dis. While it didn't benefit our characters monetarily, we chose to take the L from a profit standpoint to offer the captive an enjoyable story and path to freedom. So, we really do try to branch out and be creative.

Slavers naturally want some sort of profit from their trade, however. Which is why, of course, there's been ransoms at times. But we do offer other avenues, particularly if the captives are keen on it. And we'll continue trying to find new avenues as we go forwards. We're ever open to ideas!

The problem with this is historic trends and behaviors. The Surface has a long history of being frequently raided by Andunor and having very limited options to get a loved one back on the Surface side other than: Pay or they die. So this is a stigma that needs to somehow be broken. I don't know how or whether it ever will. But just to provide you some context around why people might assume they have limited options. I honestly think this is the most creative I have ever seen Andunor with their captives. And even then you still hear a lot of: "Pay us 2M." It doesn't help people often focus only on the negative.

As I mentioned before. There need to be a counter system to this and the DMs/Devs have stated there is something similar in the works. Andunor kidnaps your friends? Kidnap Andunors friends.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:36 pm

let's just capture people for squid games from now on

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Re: Capture RP

Post by livingNPC » Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:07 pm

D4wN wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:40 am

The problem with this is historic trends and behaviors. The Surface has a long history of being frequently raided by Andunor and having very limited options to get a loved one back on the Surface side other than: Pay or they die. So this is a stigma that needs to somehow be broken. I don't know how or whether it ever will. But just to provide you some context around why people might assume they have limited options. I honestly think this is the most creative I have ever seen Andunor with their captives. And even then you still hear a lot of: "Pay us 2M." It doesn't help people often focus only on the negative.

I would suggest planning the capture far in advance with the player being captured, then setting up a scenario for their friends to rescue them.

As Yasdia I had one human slave I had captured on the surface, we then ran an arc where she gained his trust and earn a key to the house, this led to the arc ending with her friends coming down to Andudor, accessing my home, capturing me and negotiating her collar release in exchange for Yasdia's own life.

Capture RP should start off as a storytelling collaboration between two players. It's not going to flatter either party if one doesn't want to be part of it.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm

livingNPC wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:07 pm
D4wN wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:40 am

The problem with this is historic trends and behaviors. The Surface has a long history of being frequently raided by Andunor and having very limited options to get a loved one back on the Surface side other than: Pay or they die. So this is a stigma that needs to somehow be broken. I don't know how or whether it ever will. But just to provide you some context around why people might assume they have limited options. I honestly think this is the most creative I have ever seen Andunor with their captives. And even then you still hear a lot of: "Pay us 2M." It doesn't help people often focus only on the negative.

I would suggest planning the capture far in advance with the player being captured, then setting up a scenario for their friends to rescue them.

As Yasdia I had one human slave I had captured on the surface, we then ran an arc where she gained his trust and earn a key to the house, this led to the arc ending with her friends coming down to Andudor, accessing my home, capturing me and negotiating her collar release in exchange for Yasdia's own life.

Capture RP should start off as a storytelling collaboration between two players. It's not going to flatter either party if one doesn't want to be part of it.

Why would you set up the captured oocly? What is the meaning of that? That just makes things extremely annoying and has no factor of chance or random. It also opens up for characters being "Walking Dead stupid" and doing things they would not do or fail at the prize of pushing plot.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Kuma » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:10 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:36 pm

let's just capture people for squid games from now on

Unironically the best scenarios I've found regarding captured characters is to consider them kidnapped audience members for the show you're about to put on for them.

This is going a bit off topic, but. I don't necessarily mean putting on a circus act for them that has about as much genuine malice as a Disney villain song (although that is not only valid but also a lot of fun), but if you do intend to hold a character against their will, it's in your best interests - and the interests of the wider narrative and players - to put their fun as a priority. That means providing engaging roleplay to your captives above and beyond what you might otherwise, since they are now at your mercy and in a position of lesser agency.

This is where villains (not alignment locked) can truly shine.

(note that i am not explicitly advocating for ooc arrangement or awkward "so uh. u wanna do capture rp i promise itll be fun" tells. i prefer my roleplay organic and grass-fed, not selective breeding and HFCS)

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Re: Capture RP

Post by rosediode » Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:14 pm

There has been a lot of talk in this thread about people being shamed for accepting resurrections and pursuing the rp they want to, but there's often a flip side too. In my experience with capture rp, I have been repeatedly shamed for the opposite several times, being called a bad player among other things for not wanting to subject myself to a situation that could lead to torture/gore rp.

I think it's important for everyone around any capture situation to remember that people are seeking a time investment with it, and if it's accepted, that time investment is being agreed upon to some level and should be respected. If someone accepts a raise by the enemy, they are consenting to hours to days or more of capture and escape rp (or lack thereof). If your ally wishes to make this time commitment, you should respect them enough to let it play out a bit. On the flip side, if you feel you set up great capture rp and are really excited to set up whatever for the person, and then are upset when they do not consent, consider that it really might be down to respecting another player's time before complaining or shaming them about it.

I think most of the friction, overall, comes from players feeling entitled to each other's time, resources, and commitment to their narrative. Other people may have a different take, and that's okay. I do think encouraging people to set up capture rp OOCly is a bad thing, however, and only encourages others to take it less and less seriously because they have no agency over what has been agreed on OOC.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Veszran Valthyrae » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:02 pm

rosediode wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:14 pm

There has been a lot of talk in this thread about people being shamed for accepting resurrections and pursuing the rp they want to, but there's often a flip side too. In my experience with capture rp, I have been repeatedly shamed for the opposite several times, being called a bad player among other things for not wanting to subject myself to a situation that could lead to torture/gore rp.

I think it's important for everyone around any capture situation to remember that people are seeking a time investment with it, and if it's accepted, that time investment is being agreed upon to some level and should be respected. If someone accepts a raise by the enemy, they are consenting to hours to days or more of capture and escape rp (or lack thereof). If your ally wishes to make this time commitment, you should respect them enough to let it play out a bit. On the flip side, if you feel you set up great capture rp and are really excited to set up whatever for the person, and then are upset when they do not consent, consider that it really might be down to respecting another player's time before complaining or shaming them about it.

I think most of the friction, overall, comes from players feeling entitled to each other's time, resources, and commitment to their narrative. Other people may have a different take, and that's okay. I do think encouraging people to set up capture rp OOCly is a bad thing, however, and only encourages others to take it less and less seriously because they have no agency over what has been agreed on OOC.

I will comment on this, I don't know how frequent it is but in various situations when I reached out to people to talk on capture RP I had to clarify and reassure them ahead of time that they would not be tortured or brought back only to be tortured/killed a couple times, since that did seem to be a common concern. It had me wondering if it had happened to them in the past, or it was something they heard happens.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Cthuletta » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:11 pm

It does make me quite happy that most people in this thread seem to have a general agreement on the OOC side of things.

If a person wants to partake in capture RP? Cool, don't shame them OOCly.
If a person does NOT want to partake in capture RP? Cool, don't shame them OOCly.
Some enjoy that storyline, some don't, and that's okay. Having OOC consent beforehand from the prospective captive is always good etiquette. Just shooting a tell to the person you're trying to raise, 'Hey are you good with this?' will get you the answer from that player so as to not make them uncomfortable. The player's comfortability matters more than the character when it comes to situations like this given the subject matter.

On the more IC side, how a character reacts to a captor/captive situation is more iffy in regards to reactions. Though, as Ellisaria posted above, sometimes that follow-up RP isn't always that great. The 'chastising RP' is never that fun for anyone involved, and we're all players behind the screen. Your character went through what should be a pretty terrifying ordeal... then came back to get scolded or have people being cold to them. Does it make sense? Yeah, sometimes, depending on the personality of the other character. However, that's actually a REALLY common thing from multiple people on the side of the captive's friends in my experience across the board, and I think that's largely due to that 'useless' feeling others have pointed out.

In my opinion, preventing that useless feeling involves using a good work around of having the leader of the captors involved with negotiations, as well as the captive, when talking to the opposing side. This happens sometimes, or has in the past, but there is two glaring problems with it.

1) If you go somewhere like Shadowvar or Dis, you can simply conjure the captive to your side and boom, negotiations over. What're the captors gonna do? They can't hit them to disrupt them, or they get in trouble with the people who run that area (NPCs). The captive DENIES the conjure, we go back to that 'Oh I guess you just WANT to be in this situation so why bother saving you?'
2) If you go ANYWHERE else, there is that risk of 'Okay I'm done here, I rather just subdue/kill you and go from there. Whoever wins gets the captive.'

I'm curious if anyone has any other ideas or concepts on how to achieve bringing in more interaction between the captive and their friends, without risking them just being freed immediately or another PvP Brawl occurring? Not all characters have -project_image or an endless supply of wisps on them at time of capture. I only really have one example myself of this occurring.
One of my favourite capture RPs that I was able to be part of, involved my character's close friend becoming captured, and my character was able to visit them where they were held, and talk to them through the bars of their cell. She was escorted in and out of this area by the 'enemy', on a good faith agreement that she wasn't going to do anything stupid, and it was a very touching moment that generated good RP all around in my opinion. This is opposed to the times where my character is sitting in a circle trying to figure out how to save their friend, with NO word from the friend themself, and coming up empty handed in that waiting game of 'Is someone going to pay, or is our friend going to die?'

So I really think that the biggest factor here, is limited interaction between the captive and their loved ones. If more of that is generated in a way that prevents the insta-save, I think a lot of the issues we see with Capture RP would lessen significantly.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by rosediode » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:47 pm

Veszran Valthyrae wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:02 pm
rosediode wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:14 pm

snIp

I will comment on this, I don't know how frequent it is but in various situations when I reached out to people to talk on capture RP I had to clarify and reassure them ahead of time that they would not be tortured or brought back only to be tortured/killed a couple times, since that did seem to be a common concern. It had me wondering if it had happened to them in the past, or it was something they heard happens.

Torture RP is within the rules and it has been a trend that waxes and wanes with popularity in the past. Many people who know me know I just can't do gore due to IRL experiences. Due to this, I would always ask what I'm consenting to when I consent to a raise, and I'm sure others are probably the same.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by D4wN » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:02 am

livingNPC wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:07 pm
D4wN wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:40 am

The problem with this is historic trends and behaviors. The Surface has a long history of being frequently raided by Andunor and having very limited options to get a loved one back on the Surface side other than: Pay or they die. So this is a stigma that needs to somehow be broken. I don't know how or whether it ever will. But just to provide you some context around why people might assume they have limited options. I honestly think this is the most creative I have ever seen Andunor with their captives. And even then you still hear a lot of: "Pay us 2M." It doesn't help people often focus only on the negative.

I would suggest planning the capture far in advance with the player being captured, then setting up a scenario for their friends to rescue them.

As Yasdia I had one human slave I had captured on the surface, we then ran an arc where she gained his trust and earn a key to the house, this led to the arc ending with her friends coming down to Andudor, accessing my home, capturing me and negotiating her collar release in exchange for Yasdia's own life.

Capture RP should start off as a storytelling collaboration between two players. It's not going to flatter either party if one doesn't want to be part of it.

OOCly planning and coordinating captures / deliberately getting captured is a really, really bad idea. Please trust me on this as someone who made this mistake once because someone asked me to help give their character a cool ending and has then been subjected to it on the other side unwillingly several times.

OOC coordination / scripted stories are really bad and rarely/never lead to satisfying stories. Asking consent along the way is fine and asking even for special wishes or things that would make them uncomfortable in the moment is fine. But scripted events will lead everyone around the two who scripted it feel excluded, powerless and will leave them entirely disengaged. It also will lead to OOC toxicity.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by Gaal » Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:14 am

D4wN wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:07 pm

As the captor you have a responsibility to make it engaging and fun for the captive while ensuring they don’t start to feel uncomfortable. In addition, you can choose to ensure that their friends and family members are engaged in some way, but you have no real obligation to. Your obligation is to the captive in the first place, just be mindful there is a whole group who are now feeling stressed and want to participate. Consider sending minions to keep them busy. But the captive agreed to be taken captive so now you gotta make sure they have the best experience. It’s okay to try and find out what their expectations are and you can do this without organising stuff OOCly.




I hope I didn't mess the quote up. As one who seems to get captures frequently lol, I do try to rp the part but also hope the rp is returned in favor by the captors. I have, on occasion felt that nothing I said in my desperate situation made a difference. For example, capture for spying. Defense: Doing market research to sell to trade company, a legit defense and practice of business folks. Defense asks for evidence: No evidence is given. How does one rp a response? Some things are cut and dry, but even then it can be rp out to a conclusion that leaves everyone enjoying the moment. Eye witness is notoriously the worst evidence, so use it. I have seen the inside of Cordor jail several times, with different toons and I always try to make it fun, even if it doesn't always turn out that way for everyone.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by Dr Mantis Toboggan MD » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:00 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:36 am

As a captive, I've been on the other end of precisely that situation, and in one of those circumstances we had already defused hostilities and I was in the process of playing out a tender moment with a fellow survivor when I'm suddenly inundated with twelve rapid-fire yoink requests that I'm repeatedly refusing because they actively distract from the scene - only to find out, once I finally surrender to the yoink spam, that my prior refusals had led rise to rumors that my character had willingly collaborated with the enemy and secretly wanted to be captured the whole time.

Isn't this just a blatant abuse of mechanical knowledge? How does the conjuror know you willingly clicked "NO" in a little chat box.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Bazelgeuse » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:03 pm

Dr Mantis Toboggan MD wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:00 pm

Isn't this just a blatant abuse of mechanical knowledge? How does the conjuror know you willingly clicked "NO" in a little chat box.

The message in the combat log said "<name> has resisted your summons"

It's been a few years since I've played a -yoink capable character so it might've been changed by now.


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