D4wN wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:13 am
I guess I'm just not sure what the magical formula is, but reading some of these comments I don't think the crux of the issue lies between the captive and captor. I think it lies with the people on the outside perhaps being impacted the most. So what's the answer? You can't not care, but you also have absolutely 0 control over the situation. So what do you do?
I do however still think moderation is key and fatigue is a genuine issue. Consideration should be given for this.
I think these are the key points ultimately. Feeling ICly helpless about a situation is great, that breeds interesting story. Feeling OOCly helpless about a situation I think is where most people's frustration come from; be it captive RP or any type of RP.
When your loved one is captured, you can't ICly not care about it. It's made very clear ICly that if you don't do as the captor says then your loved one is doomed to a horrible death, and if you take death seriously then you can't just shrug it off and hope their god brings them back. Also it'd be pretty mean to the captive to just suddenly not care about them either, because that dismisses the gravity of their story.
At the same time, I don't /want/ to free them quickly, OOCly, because then it ruins the fun plot of the captor/captive; the novel experience they get to play. What's the point of setting up a story that then gets ended immediately by a yoink or a million gold?
Having absolutely zero control over the situation is the problem; you ICly have to RP against something where your RP can be entirely ignored by the captors if they so choose. You can't RP with the captive because they're not accessible (except the rare case where they have GSF illusion I suppose).
magistrasa wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:33 am
I have been sitting on some thoughts that I intend to turn into a whole stupid multiparagraph post again, but I'll keep this comment mercifully short for now:
I think the idea that you have "no control over the narrative" and are being "excluded from roleplay" are exactly the sentiment that needs to change. People who hold that sentiment need to challenge it within themselves. Your character being ill-positioned to rescue an ally does not mean they are being cut out of the story. They're simply experiencing the story from another side. A good roleplayer works with the tools and knowledge at their disposal. With the OOC understanding of your narrative limitations, you don't need to act like you have to just keep bashing your head against the wall in the same way over and over again. And if that's pretty much your only approach to this narrative thread, and it constantly leads to a stressful and uninteresting experience, aren't you the crazy one by not changing your tactics and expecting different result? It just strikes me as selfish to presume you have a right to "narrative control" in a scenario that clearly suggests your character should take a supporting role. You can always engage with the storyline, even when you can't always directly affect its outcome. I won't pretend it isn't a challenge to play out, but it's profoundly disappointing to see how little the server has evolved when it comes to handling these kinds of scenarios.
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the point being made about having narrative control. Every player on the server has control over what happens to their character. You can't just stab someone's eye out and expect them to be blind forever. You can kill someone in PVP but other than bragging rights, you can't force that character to walk with a limp forever because of it. You can capture someone but can't raise them without consent.
Often times actions have consequences that you have limited control over; if you run for High Sherriff and get exiled after losing, that was a consequence for your narrative choice. Yes you're now more limited because of your exile, but you still have narrative control of your character throughout. You could sneak into Guldorand and form a coup, you could go elsewhere and ignore the exile entirely until that High Sherriff loses. You could do any number of things in order to respond to what is happening around you.
Playing a supportive role IS narrative control over your character. It's is definitely not selfish to want to play a supportive role in a story/relationship you have a lot of investment in. Calling that selfish is like saying it's selfish for the Chancellor to want to be involved in the war affecting Cordor/Guldorand.
When it comes to captive RP, there is as Dawn said, 0 control over the situation. "Give me x Million Gold or your loved one gets it" is not a supportive role, that's playing a piñata. That is lacking narrative control, as your only option is to either pay up (and thus end the captor's/captive's fun RP early which sucks to do) or come up with reasons why you can't do it and try to avoid the IC backlash that you didn't save someone's loved one. I don't think it's selfish to expect more from RP than being a piñata for someone else. Obviously, you can go RP with other people still on the surface, you can try to rally warriors, try to raise funds, cry in a circle with your friends over the terrible tragedy. You can make RP from it. But that doesn't mean you can't also actually be a part of the story unfolding with a character you've invested significant time into the relationship.
magistrasa wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:52 pm
I agree that flat gold sums as ransom are probably the least interesting solution a captor can offer. Obviously nothing stops the captive's allies from making a counter-offer of something else entirely, but demanding gold at the onset creates a certain tone around the entire plot thread. Something far more narratively compelling might be to ask for a valuable item that doesn't technically exist, and so that creates an opportunity for the allies to explore the creation or "discovery" of the item demanded, and further leads to speculation about what the nefarious villains could want with such a thing. This item can then be used for future antagonistic endeavors, which will carry much more weight as the victims will understand that they aided in the creation of this new threat. Alternatively, if slavery or servitude is on the table, a captor could suggest a swap: "We captured a warrior, which are far less profitable as a servant than a mage or a skilled tradesman. You'll get your friend/family/lover back, if you give us someone of equal or greater value instead. We'll get back to you once you take a week to think it over!" These sorts of immaterial exchanges help to create more long-lasting consequences for every side of the transaction, straining some relationships and deepening others. It also makes it seem like the captive's eventual release isn't based on some arbitrary contrivance that might otherwise potentially call into question the peril they claim to have faced.
I do however very much agree with this, these are great ideas. But you'll also note, that these all give narrative control back to the loved ones, rather than just full-stopping people with a GP or Torture routine. RP is very give and take, if one side is giving nothing then it shuts the other side out.
Keep in mind that this is as much on the captor as the loved ones to organize though; if neither side is willing to budge then the RP is just stonewalled. That's usually when the loved ones feel helpless OOC. Feeling helpless OOC comes from a lack of narrative control. Feeling helpless IC is great, but only properly happens when you feel you have control over your own RP.
It's why people felt really good about Urshak's Dis fights, because everyone had narrative control. People got to support him even if just cheering from the stands, a few people got to fight with him, and the underdarkers got to cheer on their side. Plus as a bonus, people got to RP with their foes they normally wouldn't get to.
Also 100% agree that anyone putting OOC trouble on someone for allowing themselves to be captured and doing capture RP should get reported and a stern talking to. Definitely not okay. It's a story, work with it!