Monk towards Epic Dodge...

[The Man of the Moon]

Hello.

(And at some point I though I knew about monks... lol... I am miserability lost!!!!)

I am working on a monk (currently now level 11)

I want to get epic dodge (yes, I noticed you must wait till level 27 or like that instead level 21 to be allowed to get epic dodge with the 1.69 update) and keep at least 20 Monk levels (this is a must).

Clearifications: My monk is a human dexer, and starting stats (with gifts) are:
14 STR
19 AGI
12 CON
14 INT
16 WIS
8 CHR
Chosen weapon: unarmed.
As he is not an evil character, I coudln't pick assassin levels.

So, my question is: What of the following combination of classes would you pick and why?

A. Monk 22 / Shadow Dancer 5 / Rogue 3
The 5 sd levels to get the feats required for epic dodge faster, the 3 rogue levels to be allowed to master disamble traps and open locks for those artifact chests, umd... and +2d6 sneaky attack; 22 monk levels cause the +2 extra SR...
CONTRA: I will need to invest in the feats: dodge and movility in order to get SD levels (I haven't them at moment)

B. Monk 20 / Shadow Dancer 5 / Rogue 5
As the previous option, but bumping in skill points and +3d6 sneaky attack... Keeping SD levels for the extra hide skill and the bonus feats (defensive roll by free at fifth sd level)
CONTRA: I will need to invest in the feats: dodge and movility in order to get SD levels (I haven't them at moment)

C. Monk 25 / Shadow Dancer 5
Same as before, but without the chance to get access on artifact chests. nor sneak attack... nor UMD. But more SR up to 35 (+ feats in case)
CONTRA: I will need to invest in the feats: dodge and movility in order to get SD levels (I haven't them at moment)

D. Monk 20 / Rogue 10
More skill points to share and more sneaky attack (up to +5d6), umd, a 5 POINTS lesser SR than above.
PRO: Not need to invest in dodge and movility to get Epic dodge since I wouldn0t use Shadow Dancer class.

E. Monk 20 / Shadow Dancer 5 / Priest 5
Five priest levels allowing a progression of 5 (level 0); 3 (level 1); 2 (level 2) and 1 (Level 3) spells + Wisdom bonus. Allowed to use priest items while not umd.
CONTRA: I will need to invest in the feats: dodge and movility in order to get SD levels (I haven't them at moment)

F. Monk 20 / Shadow Dancer 5 / CoT 5
Not like I woould pick this one really... But by applying the CoT levels in pre-epic, he will get +1 extra attack and a better AB... Also + 2 savings, smite evil, Divine wrath and Sacred defense 1/day...
CONTRA: I will need to invest in the feats: dodge and movility in order to get SD levels (I haven't them at moment)

G. Monk 20 / Shadow Dancer 5 / Druid 5 (Not totem)
Same as with five priest levels, but in a natured way... as a hermitage of the wild... Getting also the Arelith stuff available to druids as balance, climb the Holy Tree, etc...
CONTRA: I will need to invest in the feats: dodge and movility in order to get SD levels (I haven't them at moment)


Thoughs ???????????????????????????????????

About RP... there is not problem... I can flow with any change IG... as alive as the real life, where each moment can bring new features to you ^^


[EDITED]: ALSO, a second question...

is worthy invest getting highest SR (an epic feat=+2 SR) or won't make diference really against pure casters with Epic penetration?

[Winter83]

High SR is very nice. I had a monk reaching level 27, pure, and had little problem in PvE vs Magic.

As for shadow dancer. Consider you will have a high Dexterity which alters the DC of Shadow Daze. It can be nicely incorporated into RP, as it was displayed in game by a monk-sd.

Considering you have a Dexy monk the sneak attack will surely help.

I would select the SD path myself, but I simply love gimpy builds

[The Man of the Moon]

High SR is very nice. I had a monk reaching level 27, pure, and had little problem in PvE vs Magic.

As for shadow dancer. Consider you will have a high Dexterity which alters the DC of Shadow Daze. It can be nicely incorporated into RP, as it was displayed in game by a monk-sd.

Considering you have a Dexy monk the sneak attack will surely help.

I would select the SD path myself, but I simply love gimpy builds

I am a little gimpy too... Consider I picked longsword with my weapon master (losing a 15% additional chance to deliver criticals) just for RP reasons XD (or even aesthetical reasons!)

Still lost XD you are pointing towards three options

Merry thing... I have time enough to consider this, since my small monk still as level 11 at the moment and I don't expect a sudden level up of 9 insta levels .

[Winter83]

Some more food for thought.

Epic dodge is practically a perma +5 to AC. You'd get an Extra 2 at Epic levels going pure monk. (1 at level 25 one at level 26). So under 25 levels of monk that epic dodge would net you only +3 AC.

I believe the best option here is 25 monk 5 Shadow dancer. That'd get you the Shadow Daze, which is a bout a DC 25 vs Will.

Also you'd lose at least 2 points from the DC of quivering palm.

[The Man of the Moon]

Can a monk/rogue with 10% self concelment (epic feat) make sneaky attacks on your face?

[Winter83]

Can a monk/rogue with 10% self concelment (epic feat) make sneaky attacks on your face?

Can you get the Dex 30 prerequisitive?

Although you only get sneak attacks if the enemies are not focusing you.

[Mayonnaise]

I don't recommend aiming for Self Concealment. Simply buy an Improved Invisibility wand for five times the effect. However, concealment alone won't net you sneak attacks.

[The Man of the Moon]

Some more food for thought.

Epic dodge is practically a perma +5 to AC. You'd get an Extra 2 at Epic levels going pure monk. (1 at level 25 one at level 26). So under 25 levels of monk that epic dodge would net you only +3 AC.

I believe the best option here is 25 monk 5 Shadow dancer. That'd get you the Shadow Daze, which is a bout a DC 25 vs Will.

Also you'd lose at least 2 points from the DC of quivering palm.

Epic dodge automatically dodges the FIRST sucesful attack received each round... In a one vs. one is awesome, but when surrounded by many enemies, only will conceal the first sucess hit of one of those enemies... Is not comparable at all as if you got extra AC (is better I think, at least in the 1 vs. 1 fight, because even counter the best AB sucesful attack, leaving the enemy to try hit you with his lower AB attacks)

Quivering palm... I believe against epic characters (PvP) or epic dungeon monsters, there will be a sucess only if they rolled an 1... Cause only wisdom monks can raise significatively the quivering and stunning...

So will need to sacrifice the chance to spoil artifact chests XDDDDD (that is another of my goals Greeeeeedddddd)

This is funny how many doubts give me Arelith in the time to design a build!

[The Man of the Moon]

Fished this from the old Arelith Forum...

Always loved 23 monk/4 fighter/3 rogue with unarmed for a strbased, myself. Even got room for improved SR, if you so wish, along with +6 damage from epic weapon spec. Overwhelming crit with unarmed is funky too. "OMG you just struck that guy for 120 dmg with your fist!" Sadly, there's no keen gloves avalible...

For a dexbaser, I like 20 monk/5 rogue/5 SD(Shadowdancer). Hide In Plain Sight is the obvious cookie this has over the classic 20 monk/10 rogue, but alas this has been altered on Arelith to give a significant Hide/Ms boost instead of plainsight stealth. Which still is good.

The latter works great with both kamas and unarmed, aswell as grants you acess to neat SD ninjatricks, like Summon Shadow and the +3 AC thingie that looks like Shadowshield, at the penalty of five levels of Sneak Attacks.

Both the 20 monk/10 rogue and 20 monk/5 SD/5 rogue has easy acess to Epic Dodge. The SD evenmore so, as he gets Defensive Roll as a free feat, instead of having to actually take it at 10th rogue. Defensive roll and Improved Evasion being the two feats you require for Epic Dodge. Monks get Improved Evasion for free at 9th, so it's all set up!

All of the above-mentioned alternatives also has acess to the priceless Use Magic Device skill.

Guess I just like the flavor and RP of mixing some SD in there. Anyway, enjoy your adventures of spiritual enlightenment!.

Shadowdancers on Arelith. Instead HIpS they receive an additional +1 Hide (no Move Silently) per ShadowDancer level, and have an improved Shadow Evade... but still nice, within the gifted defensive roll at five.

[Yellena]

I would like the 25monk/5SD. You get an extra feat too.


Regarding the SR:
25 Monks will have 35 SR. That's not really great for deffense. But still works against NPCs with Spell Like Abilities, that have a capped caster lvl of 15:
-CL 15 NPC without feats: 35-15 = 20 to hit you = 5%
-CL 15 NPC with pen: 35-17 = 18 to hit you = 15%
-CL 15 NPC with greater pen: 35-19 = 16 to hit you = 25%
-CL 15 NPC with epic pen: 35-21 = 14 to hit you = 35%
As a quick rule of thumb:
1) A monk of X levels will have 50% protection against a foe of the same X Caster Level.
2) Each Spell Pen Feat makes you 10% easier to be hit with spell.
3) Each Improved SR Feat makes you 10% harder to be hit with spell.


You need to decide what to do with your build:
-If you want to grab some feats to be bettet in "physical" fights (AC/AB feats) or
-If you want to get even more SR and be great against mages.


As a reference, check te table below. Easier and faster than to writte all data here individually:
The numbers in the table means the roll they need to hit you. The blue zone is the safe zone and the dark orange is the "aways will be hit" zone. For each Improved SR feat you have, consider your SR 2 points higher (go down 2 lines) and for each Spell Pen Feat you consider enemy having, increase the Caster Level by 2 (go right 2 colunms).

[Yellena]

At lvl 25 Monk with four ISR feats, you would have 43 SR. Even tought that isn't a treat to pure casters, you would be great against people who multiclass for skilldump.
If you consider a caster that took a rogue for UMD/Utility and a warrior for Discipline/Feats, it's maximum caster level will be 24, and you would be basically immune to it (they need to roll 20). of course, each Spell Pen feat they have will decrease the number they need to roll by two.

The good side is that Monk SR can't be lowered by spells like Spell Breach.

[The Man of the Moon]

The good side is that Monk SR can't be lowered by spells like Spell Breach.

Wow... I had no idea about that! awesome!

(thanks a lot to everyone for the ongoing insights!)

[The Man of the Moon]

Then... I have another question...
So...
In your opinion... what is better?

_________________Monk 27 / Rogue 3 _______ VS. ______ Monk 25 / sd 5

Epic dodge: ______________ NO _________________________________YES__________
Uncanny dodge ___________ YES _________________________________YES__________
SR _____________________ 37 base _____________________________ 35 base ______
AC gap __________________ +1 _________________________________ 0 ____________
UMD ____________________ YES ________________________________ NO ___________
Hide bonus ______________ NO _________________________________ YES: +5 _______
Disable traps in epic DC ___ YES _________________________________ NO __________
Special features spell-like__ NO _________________________________ YES (shadow shield & daze)
Sneaky damage ___________ YES: +2d6 ___________________________ NO __________


WTF! I realiced I can't get uncanny dodge as 25 monk / 5 sd!!! Am i wrong on this??? [EDITED: yes, you get it at level 2... temporary panic hahahahah]

uncanny dodge is like a must for dexers... is a shame get kicked and dead cause swallow every hit then, or paralized... or confused...or...

plus... if going for Epic dodge... you need to invest an epic feat on that, so you cannot raise by that extra +2 the SR...

[Winter83]

SD level 2 gains uncanny dodge.

[The Man of the Moon]

SD level 2 gains uncanny dodge.

aaaah... thank you... I was missing that feat from the guide I was watching.

[Lorkas]

20 monk / 10 rogue and 22 monk / 3 rogue / 5 SD are both very powerful combinations that have had proof-of-concept characters in Arelith. It's a strong build for both PvM and PvP.

[Izaich]

Just a heads up regarding Q-Palm, since it was touched on briefly in this discussion. It only works on targets that are below your current level. It's still very useful in PvE, but can fall short in PvP.

[The Man of the Moon]

Just a heads up regarding Q-Palm, since it was touched on briefly in this discussion. It only works on targets that are below your current level. It's still very useful in PvE, but can fall short in PvP.

What always upsetted me a bit is that most of classes can focuss on a single Stat (Warriors on DEX or STR, rogues and assassins on DEX, wizards on INT, priestss and druids on WIS, bards, warlocks and sorcerors on CHR...)

But monks, in the same line than with paladins, rely on two or more stats...

If your monk want to be capable to fight... you need DEX

If your monk want to use with some sucess the Q-palm and Stunning fists... you need Highly high WIS (so also picking Ki-Strike +4 and +5)... But... losing several AB! (Guessing WIS monks shall get 10 priest levels to use that spell that turns them temporary into AB fighters...)

What is the business making a monk with high DC on stuns if you can't hit your enemies?

This always disapointed me...

Ah...Paladins... well...they have their own small hell (They need STR, WIS, CHR...)