Raw power of Flameborns.

[Astral]

I remember back in the days it was first introduced. The vibe was sort of "here, have a new class! it's probably not very strong, but it can do stuff and it's unique! Have fun!". I was always under the impression it's a fun-class(?) for special mage concepts, not something mechanically balanced that's supposed to be as strong as other classes. Yet, with it's kit, players figured out ways to make it work and soloed their path to epics, being careful and patient in their strategy. I don't see any point changing anything unless you entirely re-invent the class' mechanical basis. If the class hurts the server environment that's another story and it's not because the class is too weak or too strong. So yeah I agree with Peppermint.

[The Rambling Midget]

My main gripe is that TFers, warlocks and especially Weavemasters totally kill the D&D feel of the server and bring it closer to MMO world.

It's true, they don't really fit into the classic PnP D&D setting, but that's not the setting that we're in. I sincerely hope that Arelith never becomes a MMO style world, but it's important to recognize that this is a persistent online world - not a planned campaign - with as much emphasis on action as RP, and that should be taken into account when considering class construction and options.

Having played both infinite and non-infinite pure casters, I have to say that I find the infinite sort to be infinitely more enjoyable, even with their limitations, because they allow me to consistently participate in the action aspect, if sometimes only in a supporting role. Until upper levels, my spells-per-day casters have the option to either buff up at the beginning of an adventure and pointlessly lob crossbow bolts into the air for the remainder, or wait until the very end to finally drop a spell combo on the boss, doing nothing meaningful in the meantime. If I try to do both, or stretch out my spells, my contribution becomes so small that my party could get along fine without me. It's not fun.

Infinite casters could do with some tweaking to balance their abilities, but I'd hate to see them removed entirely.

Except PoTF. That thing's broke.

[Mithradates]

Overreaction much?

No, not at all. This is a discussion about balancing TF's and people chime in that the class and all infinite casting should be removed? Now, that is an overreaction and completely unhelpful.

[Astral]

Having played both infinite and non-infinite pure casters, I have to say that I find the infinite sort to be infinitely more enjoyable, even with their limitations, because they allow me to consistently participate in the action aspect, if sometimes only in a supporting role. Until upper levels, my spells-per-day casters have the option to either buff up at the beginning of an adventure and pointlessly lob crossbow bolts into the air for the remainder, or wait until the very end to finally drop a spell combo on the boss, doing nothing meaningful in the meantime. If I try to do both, or stretch out my spells, my contribution becomes so small that my party could get along fine without me. It's not fun.

That's so true. I've been playing a favoured soul for long time now and it's been THAT fun that I find it difficult to make a new character concept. Trying to play a healer cleric but so far stuck at lvl 9 and quite frustrated by not being able to do much other than buffing the party at the start and saving some slots for offensive spells or self-buffing short duration spells for the bosses or just healing the party sometimes (and being greatly out-matched by a favoured soul in the healing department in these low lvls).

But before the introduction of infinite casters, if you wanted to play a caster you had no choice but to hold yourself together and find ways to go through these rough times (mostly take it slow and focus on RPing a lot and eventually make it to high lvls, eventually) which is a nice reminder of the old D&D versions where mages (wizards, no sorcs back then) lvl progression was /actually/ slower than other classes intentionally. And eventually, you'd end up three times stronger than a caster with cooldowns when looking at a single battle.

The thing with TFs though, I don't see that many of them to feel like they change the server for good or bad. They are just there, somewhere, plotting stuff, minding their own business.

How DO you balance TFs? It's tricky. Is there really something wrong with this class? I don't know. Feels like a niche pick for special concepts. It's not over-powered, it's probably even a bit underpowered (except Angela Amana, of course! <3). Some people play it, others may not like this playstyle. Is it an urgent matter to solve or can you just leave them as they are for now and spend the developer's time for different things? Just raising the questions I think we should address here.

[Amineh123]

Honestly, a wizard or sorcerer or cleric etc. be much more enjoyable comparing to TF if there was an option to rest, without healing for example, but only to recover spells and special abilities. F.e. you don't recover anything else (hp, rest indicator %) only get your 'weapons' back.
And you can rest anytime, of course outside of battle and foes.

[Astral]

Honestly, a wizard or sorcerer or cleric etc. be much more enjoyable comparing to TF if there was an option to rest, without healing for example, but only to recover spells and special abilities. F.e. you don't recover anything else (hp, rest indicator %) only get your 'weapons' back.
And you can rest anytime, of course outside of battle and foes.

Imbalanced.

[Amineh123]

Hey, that's an idea, feel free to modify it.

[Amineh123]

A cooldown for such rest? Still faster that waiting A LOT until rest indicator goes down.

[Astral]

So what's the point in adding that special sort of rest with a cooldown on it when you already have the normal rest and the rest indicator as your current cooldown? You can tweak the already existing rest indicator to fall off faster if you want to have casters more freedom-of-resting-cap. Am I missing something?

[Amineh123]

Nope, your idea is just more simple. Will people like it though?

[Amineh123]

Then again, how long would it actually last? You should be able to rest every 2 ingame hours. It's 12 minutes of waiting tops. How many fights can you do in 12 minutes? At least a few.
Would you need to catch a breath after a few fights? Surely, seems logical.
Rest doesn't have to be equal to sleep.

[Liareth]

Everyone calling for TF's deletion just needs to stop, your immersion bubble is only broken because of false notions, and your archaic views will only drive away everyone that loves the OPTIONS available to them. Multiple play styles, take your Snuggle a Bugbear pick. That is what makes Arelith amazing. Don't make calls for your play style to be the one that dominates the server, that everyone must subscribe to.

Also, infini casting is just a fact of modern gaming. You're identifying the wrong 'artifact'.

Your attitude is precisely why it's far more difficult to correct mistakes than it is to make them -- and I'm not saying your attitude is wrong (though it is -very- entitled!). You have a shiny new toy which you love and you don't want to lose. But from the perspective of those who work on the server for free in our spare time to make your time here better, our job has been made much more difficult because of these paths.

I wasn't trying to imply that Vancian Magic was modern or even a good system at all ... but the entire game (and the entire module) is designed around the system! With that in mind, I'm sure you can see why shoehorning a number of poorly-balanced infinicaster paths into the mix might, in retrospect, be a terrible idea. Design and balance in *every* area (spells, classes, creatures, dungeons, etc) is now significantly more challenging and definitely more time consuming.

For what it's worth, I'm against the complete removal of the path(s) myself. As a general rule, I really don't enjoy taking people's toys away. But I do acknowledge that the server would be a better, more balanced place without them after the initial period of "ow ow my cool thing is gone now" pain.

[vaclavc]

For what it's worth, I'm against the complete removal of the path(s) myself. As a general rule, I really don't enjoy taking people's toys away. But I do acknowledge that the server would be a better, more balanced place without them after the initial period of "ow ow my cool thing is gone now" pain.

I totally agree with this view.
I really, really appreciate the time and resources the devs spent on creating new player classes.
Maybe it would be a good compromise to grandfather existing characters, and simply limit the creation of new ones (e.g. normal or major reward spent, etc).

-V-

[Meliboeus]

For what it is worth I would be very sorry to see the Warlock class change or disappear. It struck me as balanced, albeit non-Feylocks had an easier time of it in PVE than a lot of classes (in PVP Dismissal / WoF negates a lot of their power).

The thing that clinched it is that they are supposed to be outcasts from all societies, which meant that you had to be very careful about using you abilities in the open. When I played Sester I tried to make sure he never openly used his abilities / relied on disguise when he did. But I have to say I did not see much evidence of any anti-warlock sentiment.

Above all, the class was extremely elegantly designed from a mechanical perspective. There was no one tactic or button, nor was there one weakness. It was fascinating to play.

I can't speak about the other infinite casters, having not played them or obviously come across them.

[Amineh123]

Warlock, from what I've been told, is basically almost a TF with summons, ironically.
Never played one though, so that might've been an exaggeration.

[Lorkas]

Warlock has way, way less pure blasting power than a TF does.

At best, a warlock is doing 67.5 x 2 damage per round to a single target, while a TF can deal 120 x 2 damage per round to 2 targets.

[Astral]

while a TF can deal 120 x 2 damage per round to 2 targets.

Are you taking haste into account here? Spring wine is mundane now. if that's not a TF boost, I don't know what is! XD

Edit: Spring? ...Sweetberry.

[Mithradates]

Your attitude is precisely why it's far more difficult to correct mistakes than it is to make them -- and I'm not saying your attitude is wrong (though it is -very- entitled!). You have a shiny new toy which you love and you don't want to lose. But from the perspective of those who work on the server for free in our spare time to make your time here better, our job has been made much more difficult because of these paths.

I wasn't trying to imply that Vancian Magic was modern or even a good system at all ... but the entire game (and the entire module) is designed around the system! With that in mind, I'm sure you can see why shoehorning a number of poorly-balanced infinicaster paths into the mix might, in retrospect, be a terrible idea. Design and balance in *every* area (spells, classes, creatures, dungeons, etc) is now significantly more challenging and definitely more time consuming.

For what it's worth, I'm against the complete removal of the path(s) myself. As a general rule, I really don't enjoy taking people's toys away. But I do acknowledge that the server would be a better, more balanced place without them after the initial period of "ow ow my cool thing is gone now" pain.

Saying that we should empower multiple play styles is entitled? I disagree, obviously. My critique is that players are saying infini casting is immersion breaking or some other flimsy idea that's been violated. I bet it's a pain to code, but I'm talking about espousing the core value that Rp'ers should have fun when they come to Arelith regardless of notions of how NWN "should" be. And that the discussions about defining that fun for others is just loathsome. Sometimes, I like to solo. A lot of the time, I love interacting and being in groups. Everyone gains something different from their experience, and saying that soloing should be so discouraged is just out of place in a server which is universally fun whether you like casual play or heavy RP. It's an amazing blend of action and character interaction that works, and it has definitely improved in recent years. We can talk numbers and balance all day, but at midnight it's all about the experience you're giving the players. Giving people the option of playing a TF is awesome. Whether or not you'd like to party with a TF is also an option. We love options, and yeah-- people will be pretty sore if options are limited for their play experience. Truly, it's ultimately the options that enrich the experience. I'm sorry it's a pain to code, but there are a lot of us really enjoying that hard work!

These paths have been around for years, they're not just a shiny new toy anymore.

As far as balancing, I hear you with all the areas that need consideration. I think that's a great discussion--but that talk was quickly taken in a new direction, which is why I felt compelled to chime in.

EDIT: And as far as the entitlement comment: . The server is wonderful, and I contribute money to support the hard work of volunteers like you. While devs, coders, and Dms are essential to the server, so are players. We appreciate you and we REALLY appreciate Arelith.

[Nitro]

Funnily, Weave Masters and True Flames are still listed as "Experimental, may be changed or removed at any time" when you pick the option on character creation, despite having been around for years now, so fair beans for some overhauls. And I honestly think some are needed, I've long had the opinion that infinicasters are a straight upgrade to traditional casters when it comes to PvE content.

[Liareth]

Saying that we should empower multiple play styles is entitled?

I didn't mean it that way at all.

I was referring to your aggressive, demanding, and nonconstructive tone, and how you misdirected focus from the real issue (it is extremely difficult / impossible to properly balance these out-of-setting classes, and attempting to do so wastes a massive amount of time which could be spent implementing properly balanced, more interesting, and most setting-appropriate mechanics instead) to something that isn't an issue and that nobody is trying to do ('immersion bubble broken', 'false notions', 'archaic views', et al.).

If one or more infinicaster paths do get turned off to new characters / become gift-only options / are overhauled, it will be because the development team deemed it best for the server going forwards, not because we're trying to limit your options or ruin your day. Not saying that it'll happen -- just clarifying that it might.

[Griefmaker]

I would not mind it so much if infinite spellcasters were removed (even though I play an enchanting/illusion focused WM and LOVE it) assuming the regular casters had a serious boost in spell slots. Not one/spell level, but something significant. And that saves were cut down so that spells besides your standard damage actually could be used.

[Astral]

I would not mind it so much if infinite spellcasters were removed (even though I play an enchanting/illusion focused WM and LOVE it) assuming the regular casters had a serious boost in spell slots. Not one/spell level, but something significant. And that saves were cut down so that spells besides your standard damage actually could be used.

Wizards, caster clerics and vanilla sorcerers are STILL the most powerful classes in the game, with the fewest counters, in my and many many others opinions, when the player learns how to play them and know the pros/cons for each of their spells. On top of that, Arelith has extra epic spells to give them even more cookies to make them interesting and versatile (yoink, scry, etc. ). If they weren't so damn strong, spell components and peity-draining for high spell circles wouldn't be added in first place. They don't need any boost in their spell slots. Every class has to have some kind of weakness or drawbacks. These pure casters are slow lvling and take time to bloom. And it would also take most players who play them for the first time a lot of trail/error experiments with their spells and a lot of mistakes will be made, naturally. It's the beauty in pure casters and it what makes them interesting and hard to play. It's the price they pay for being so incredibly strong late game. If they ever receive another boost I really hope it will be something that's only granted on normal/major awards only.

[Nitro]

I wouldn't call them the most powerful in the game if we count Arelith changes, they've actually done a really good job of nerfing the more OP spells (Big green hands, IGMS, timestop etc). I mean, just look at how long ago it was that there last was a thread advocating the nerfing of clerics of wizards.

The problem with traditional casters (wizards, sorcs and caster clerics), is that they're dull as bricks to play in parties most of the time. You throw out your buffs on everyone, maybe summon out a big nasty to fight for you and then you're left following along like a lost puppy until you dump the last of your spells onto the bosses that the group comes across. Then you rest, if you can, and repeat it all over.

While by comparison, the infinicasters have a much more active playstyle. WM's drop their buffs and summons, then they continue to drop short duration buffs or other combat spells in every single encounter. TF's nuke everything in sight, and warlocks alternate between buffs, CC and blasting.

Wild Mages I think are an excellently designed alternative for wizard. The surges allow you to use more spells per day, and intentionally triggering surges to strategically replenish spells allows you to prepare more spells you normally wouldn't. You'll still run out eventually, and you'll always run the risk of a surge going horribly wrong, but your playstyle is far more active than a traditional wizard. I would love to see more caster variants like that, or having current ones changed to be more similar to that.

[Mithradates]

[
I didn't mean it that way at all.

Then I apologize for misunderstanding and my tone, however there are key arguments that have been used (not necessarily by you) that immersion is broken or that the server is somehow less fun because of the existence of infinite casting, which is perception based and not a shared truth.

Making it less accessible and more difficult to play pure casting characters would be a complete step backwards.

[The Rambling Midget]

Then you rest, if you can, and repeat it all over.

That's the real problem. If there was some way to get around spending a quarter of every hour searching for a place to rest, resting, rebuffing, and waiting for everyone who got bored of the exercise and went AFK, we wouldn't need infinite casters at all. I have work in the morning. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Traditional casters just can't follow the flow of a PW.