Dark Spires Castle.

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Nymann
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Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Nymann » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:35 pm

Hello!

*DISCLAIMER*
After reading a few responses regarding Brogendenstein taking claim to the Castle, this is by no means my intend with this post, it is more about things popping out of no where without RP build around it, the four points is merely explanations, as to why I think this is odd, as well as the Auction system.
I am well aware Irongron said this two years ago, during the first Arelith meeting. But I did hope there was difference in a OOC warning and to address it IC.



Other than me who find the oddity of sudden Castles popping out of no where, with no IC RP explanation... I have a few reason as to why I think the New Castle in Dark Spires is a fluke and a flop. (love the idea with new stuff, always have, always will, but this one seems far off for several reasons)

1) Dark Spires has for almost 12 IRL years been RP'ed as part of Brogendensteins Dominion, when I´ve met DM´s in some cases who has enforced this as well for RP purposes.

2) When it is popping out of nowhere on Brogendensteins often IC patrolled area, where we as dwarves often host patrols to our Northern borders. Suddenly there is a Castle from one day to another... At least with Guldorand and Darrowdeep, there was some sort of RP construction around it, which was not build on already claimed lands.

3) Even when it is on Dominion lands, it´s only humans there?

4) Now this is a bit against the Auction system which, I understand why is there, but at same time think it´s just ruining faction RP for smaller factions, who is not Settlements. But I can´t find many logical explanation why Cordor for instance would want a Castle they can´t reinforce properly as far away from their main Settlement, through Bendir Lands, through Myon lands or Guldorand, and then through Brogendenstein lands to reach their castle. Yes we live in a world with portals, but not all NPC´s jump out from portals.
(this goes both ways of course, aka Brog with Darrowdeep / Castle Gloom and so on)


Main concern around this is the bollocks of non RP this brings, to a established RP server in many areas. Since it came out of the blue and is another "auction" thing.
Wouldn´t it be better if Castles and such, is more tied to settlements nearby. Similar that new guldorands gets to keep old guldorand as a village, and Bendir has a village tied to them?
If the fear of holding a castle for ever is there, the new "leader" of the settlement, can just evict the person and then its over with?
Then you ain't having this odd feeling when ever there is a auction, all you build for the last 2 years while actively involving others was just thrown into the sewers due to someone sneak betting in the last minute?
Or bound to which Settlement is just power grinding enough materials to earn enough coin they can spent? Then it´s more about population of Settlements than RP reasons. Since the exhaustion of coin, and materials has been changed from number of citizens, to number of exiles?

I truly appreciate the amount of work the Devs and the vision Irongron has for the future of the server, but I really think matters such as this, has become a "Thing" too fast, without the lovely RP aspect we all love! :D

(Though, insane done by the devs with the Castle, it looks really amazing!)

Best Regards
Nymann
Last edited by Nymann on Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Exordius » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:45 pm

I would not say its a flop but certainly it should be tied to Brog and not Cordor. Granted its appearance was sudden with no warning but when you think about it having a castle there does make sense strategically, especially when you consider that there is a route to the underdark that could be used against brog up there. Not to mention all kinds of other nasties you would not want coming south.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:52 pm

I have to admit I think the location is a little off too.

But if this castle was built where the ruins of Old Stonehold is now by the Forest of despair (maybe the old stronghold could be demolished and rebuilt into something new), that would be a good place.

It would be in a position sort of like Darrowdeep is between Cordor and Bendir, but this time more between Bendir and Brog. It is in an area that sees foot traffic, since people are always going through the FoD, the Shyr is nearby, the crystal caverns, etc., and so would actually have a presence.

It is closish to the ferry and portals, it would possibly bring more life to that area other than people wandering by simply to farm FoD and so on...and that would be nice, because since wharftown was destroyed, that area over there has been pretty empty.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by DM Rex » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:53 pm

A city's influence only goes as far as their ability to evict. The rest of their 'territory' must only be enforced via roleplay. Guildhouses (or Castles that can be bid on) don't all fall under a city's purview. This was a decision made by the development team and may or may not change in the future.

There is an assumed relative territory to a city, but their influence goes only so far. But each and every city has a set amount of shops and quarters they're able to evict from, and that is their mechanical limit. This particular guildhouse/Castle for rent falls outside of that.
There are shops/Houses even in the farmlands of Cordor bordering one square away from the Cultural District that fall out of their jurisdiction. That's just the way it was designed.

And not every building or addition is going to have massive construction environmental RP behind it. The Team does their best but they're adding content all the time, I wouldn't fault them for having new areas pop up just because we didn't have a mess of bricks everywhere prior to the update.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:07 pm

Brog owned Darrowdeep for a long time, suddenly having a castle right next to Brog that's not automatically handed to the dwarves is an issue?

Anyway, coincidentally I checked Cordor's housing registry recently and noticed one interesting thing - ALL the guildhouses in the city had only one occupied quarter (claimed by the guild house owner) with ALL other quarters vacant.
This is mostly because the factions strategically seek to control property outside their guild house.

That being said, I think that there might be a bigger issue with guild houses in general, regardless whether some city officials can evict their owners or not.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Nymann » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:09 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:07 pm
Brog owned Darrowdeep for a long time, suddenly having a castle right next to Brog that's not automatically handed to them is an issue?

Anyway, coincidentally I checked Cordor's housing registry recently and noticed one interesting thing - ALL the guildhouses in the city had only one occupied quarter (claimed by the guild house owner) with ALL other quarters vacant.
This is mostly because the factions strategically seek to control property outside their guild house.

That being said, I think that there might be a bigger issue with guild houses in general, regardless whether some city officials can evict their owners or not.
Despite loving to be in the Darrowdeep family, pre Rivondiir. I still always felt it odd that Darrowdeep was Brogendensteins and not Cordor's. So it has nothing to do with "suddenly being okey"

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by MalKalz » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:11 pm

I disagree that it should be connected to a settlement. It comes off as very entitled to think content should just be handed to someone because they claim to patrol lands that are not really their territory.

The guildhouse in the base camp used to be home to a lot of different factions long before any Brogendenstein member had a property in it.

I think the addition is good. I can’t wait to see what happens.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Xerah » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:15 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:07 pm
Anyway, coincidentally I checked Cordor's housing registry recently and noticed one interesting thing - ALL the guildhouses in the city had only one occupied quarter (claimed by the guild house owner) with ALL other quarters vacant.
This is mostly because the factions strategically seek to control property outside their guild house.
While this is true, and the fact that guildhouse quarters often sit empty while faction members go take property elsewhere is not a good thing, in this case, there are some bugs in some of the quarters that show more places than exists.
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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:16 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:07 pm

This is mostly because the factions strategically seek to control property outside their guild house.
This is a tangent, but I'm glad this has been brought up.

I think this behaviour constitutes a call for review of quarters / guildhouses rules by the Dev/DM Team.

A guildhouse has symbolically meant to house a faction, yet, a faction can extend its realm of influence by getting its members to buy up property elsewhere and have it, de facto, under the ownership of that faction.

This technically avoids the 1 quarter, 1 CDkey rule, but in practice, breeches it. Sure, all of these players of these property-hogging factions will whine and protest they've done nothing wrong, and that members can buy property elsewhere, but when you see Faction Justice with a Guildhouse in Cordor, but Faction Justice with named quarters in other settlements, you start to question.

Knowingly buying property outside your guildhouse, with the intent for it to be used by the guild, funded by the guild, with -faction support, and even nameplating the guild, is deeply problematic, and has become systemic on this server.

It pushes out new players, disenfranchised players, players who don't join Discord, and players with odd or reduced playtimes.

Arelith's obsession with private property is making the server feel more like 19th C America than 13th C Dublin.

edit: there are many in-game factions that are culprit to this, I would gladly call them out by name.
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Nymann
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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Nymann » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:17 pm

Spyre wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:11 pm
I disagree that it should be connected to a settlement. It comes off as very entitled to think content should just be handed to someone because they claim to patrol lands that are not really their territory.

The guildhouse in the base camp used to be home to a lot of different factions long before any Brogendenstein member had a property in it.

I think the addition is good. I can’t wait to see what happens.
It is less about being handed a settlement, and more about the RP around it. Would love if there was just some RP around how a castle just appeared out of thin air, in what for long long long time has been RP'ed as part of a "claimed" area.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:26 pm

Spyre wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:11 pm
It comes off as very entitled to think content should just be handed to someone because they claim to patrol lands that are not really their territory.
This.

I'd go as far as saying "claiming" of additional land by settlement(s) (members) by "frequent patrolling" and blunt fixture placement (e.g., flags indicating a "settlement border") should not be allowed at all in the first place. Or well, it could be allowed, but players should not expect it to be backed up officially.
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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Nymann » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:30 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:26 pm
Spyre wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:11 pm
It comes off as very entitled to think content should just be handed to someone because they claim to patrol lands that are not really their territory.
This.
Yet, I think you are missing the point in what I wrote. I spoke nothing about of it being handed to Brog, I felt more it was odd that it came out of thin air, and even when it -did- come out of thin air, it was part of something, that is ruining factions, rather than building them? Auction house system, tends to do that.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Xerah » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:37 pm

We suspend disbelief on tons of stuff; just add this to the pile.
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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Irongron » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:39 pm

Having made both the former tower, and now the citadel, I never intended for it to 'belong' to any settlement, and indeed Brogendestein has received so much attention from me over the last years that I'm not feeling very gracious on reading they have some prior claim to the base camp based opon prolonged ownership, if anything extended ownership is more of a sign that a change is in order.

I stated in almost 2 years ago that I intended to update the Base Camp tower and add it to the Brokerage, and even so I'm going well out of my way to be a gracious as possible, agreeing not to even open bidding for another 2RL months, which then runs for a game year. That means the current owners have over 3 months to prepare, during which time they've been given a seriously upgraded guildhouse...

I would have hoped those there could have been excited to see what was a somewhat lacklustre location heavily improved. It certainly didn't come without warning either, not only did I make it clear some time ago this was my plan, but have also been regularly updating that location in recent weeks.

I would really advise those RPing there to look upon this as an opportunity.

Also, the Land Brokerage does not ruin faction roleplay, as players gain control for 5 game years, which is a massive amount of time. It seems only neighbourly to allow other players a chance of controlling one of these locations if you're not done with it by then...

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:42 pm

It didn't come out of thin air.

About a year ago I think it was Gron who said he wanted to review sizable guildhouses and make them into things that you use the brokerage system for. This was one of the properties on the chopping block, as is the Fox Den and Sibayad fortress.

Also, I think it's silly to suggest that Brog just inherently owns it. Cordor is a few transitions away from both Gloom and Darrowdeep, which is far closer than Brog is to the base camp.

Personally I hope that the land brokerage system will be expanded to not be settlement tied so independent player groups can use it. There was recently a thread about the struggle of evil RP on the surface, and not having places to set up base without the threat of being exiled is an issue. If all guildhouses become tied to settlements, then it will make it really hard to run something if you have to play nice with people because otherwise they'll take it away and exile you.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Nymann » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:48 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:39 pm
Having made both the former tower, and now the citadel, I never intended for it to 'belong' to any settlement, and indeed Brogendestein has received so much attention from me over the last years that I'm not feeling very gracious on reading they have some prior claim to the base camp based opon prolonged ownership, if anything extended ownership is more of a sign that a change is in order.

I stated in almost 2 years ago that I intended to update the Base Camp tower and add it to the Brokerage, and even so I'm going well out of my way to be a gracious as possible, agreeing not to even open bidding for another 2RL months, which then runs for a game year. That means the current owners have over 3 months to prepare, during which time they've been given a seriously upgraded guildhouse...

I would have hoped those there could have been excited to see what was a somewhat lacklustre location heavily improved. It certainly didn't come without warning either, not only did I make it clear some time ago this was my plan, but have also been regularly updating that location in recent weeks.

I would really advise those RPing there to look upon this as an opportunity.

Also, the Land Brokerage does not ruin faction roleplay, as players gain control for 5 game years, which is a massive amount of time. It seems only neighbourly to allow other players a chance of controlling one of these locations if you're not done with it by then...
I think it came out wrong, if what people gathered from this was that I believed it should be entitled to Brogendenstein. That was by no means my point, it was more the overall and generality of the way, in which I dislike areas popping out of nowhere with no RP around it.

I think there is a difference in a OOC warning, in a world that is runned by IC fuel. If you get my point in this matter.
I absolutely love the idea of more places like this, though I do feel like Auction house system ruins factions.
When things you´ve worked for suddenly disappears due to a betting system. It just isn't the same no matter how much you try to look at it, when the place is part of what you build / helped building.

however I am curious what happened to the Altars / tombstone outside the former Tower? Did they just get destroyed when the Castle was put in?

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Red_Wharf » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:01 pm

If more properties and castles are added to the auction system, I would highly suggest for them to be placed in zones bordering two or more settlements where no one can say "okay, this castle was built in my settlement's land, therefore it is mine".

If the current zeitgeist is any indication, I feel there won't be much competition for this castle. For me at least, it seems like there's a strong friendship (and this has been ongoing for a very, very long time) feeling between all settlements in the surface portion of Arelith, and with this new castle being so close to Brogendenstein, I think everyone will just agree to let the Dwarves have it forever.

I may be wrong about it, things can change, but given my experience with the way things are being handled by the settlements since last year, this is what I have scried with my great value crystal ball. Please, I'm not hating on the update, it's great and it's very appreciated.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Irongron » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:07 pm

Nymann wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:48 pm
However I am curious what happened to the Altars / tombstone outside the former Tower? Did they just get destroyed when the Castle was put in?
We never do that with such updates. All
Fixtures were safely stowed by myself and DM Butterfly, and can either be claimed or left at a location of the owners choosing.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Nymann » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:10 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:07 pm
Nymann wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:48 pm
However I am curious what happened to the Altars / tombstone outside the former Tower? Did they just get destroyed when the Castle was put in?
We never do that with such updates. All
Fixtures were safely stowed by myself and DM Butterfly, and can either be claimed or left at a location of the owners choosing.
Really glad to hear that, While I know the owners of said Tombstones and Altars no longer play, I was very affiliated with them. Possible to have them placed elsewhere for the time being, or being kept on hold for now? (unless the other Starglows already spoke with you already?
Not sure you read the last I wrote as well, but I had no intentions of making a claim of it to Brogendenstein, I realize it came out wrong and could be misread. English is not my native tongue heh. Was more focused on the lack of RP part around it. Of course matters such as this always brings RP opportunity, just going to feel odd rping that a Castle came out of a pot of smoke (joke intended)

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Exordius » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:56 pm

As for the things appearing out of nowhere its not really that different from when Mayfields turned into a village overnight... it happened because magic.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:03 pm

I see both sides of this one, as a person who has no stake in what happens to basecamp. I think its great that there are these fortresses around the island that are flexible in ownership, But I also not only think its ridiculous that its tied to the settlements because of how it crosses boundaries I also think it makes these castles less special since no one really goes to them save for short bursts of time when people try and make it a thing but end up in the city of their origin more often then not anyways. Why would I go to basecamp for Cordorian stuff when everyone is Cordor, ect.

Personally I would rethink the entire system completely, using these castles as an agent of players ability to change the world by allowing them to compete (with dm supervision so its not just a pvp bash) over ownership through more then just having more gold then the other side. I would toss guild houses and the smaller settlements in there too, with your rocks being Brogendenstein, Cordor, Bendir (maybe) and the new city so the server has some stability. I would even have NPCs part of some dm plot take over these spots from time to time, just to spice it up some, though this should either be really good or the result of a lull in pc activity or peoples going to grumble.

I know some might be thinking I'm crazy, and this would just end with endless complaints to the dm team about how side A lost their castle because DM Z likes side B better. I can't lie, it may even start off like that, NwN has the tendency to make people's crazy flare. But I think ultimately people will get used to these things not being tied to the gold you and your crew can muster, and being tied to activity in game instead. The vision of laying siege to darrowdeep after months of trying to convince an army of orogs in the underdark that it was in their best interest to help us only to find out that the noble house of Diddlytinks that holds Darrowdeep enlisted the aid of the Cordorian army and now things really are jumping off is very appealing to me. The vision of trying to save enough gold to buy a property only to find out that the 1 million gold my group was able to muster is actually just chump change is one that turns me off from bothering at all. I realize this serves as a gold sink too, and that's understandable. But you can just switch that over to maintenance costs.

Anyways, I could go on for days but I'm already knee deep in ramblepost territory.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Irongron » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:37 pm

Rather than being a gamble, decided by who has the most gold, on treating factions unfairly, I believe this system is better at promoting roleplay, and should remain in the hands of settlements.

So firstly,
Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:01 pm
If the current zeitgeist is any indication, I feel there won't be much competition for this castle. For me at least, it seems like there's a strong friendship (and this has been ongoing for a very, very long time) feeling between all settlements in the surface portion of Arelith, and with this new castle being so close to Brogendenstein, I think everyone will just agree to let the Dwarves have it forever.
Absolutely, this is very much by design. If treaties are signed between settlements as to whose claims will respected on these territories these locations can be obtained for a few thousand (or even ten) gold. Rather than choice locations being held based purely upon who grabbed them first, and then passing between OOC grounds and friends, the brokerage ensures these things are handled in character.

As for smaller factions being outsted, they really don't need to be. If your faction controls a castle, the owning settlement is purely who you pay tax to. Does that need to a problem? Said faction can again actually reach out to the elected leader of each settlement prior to the bidding, asking that they can retain ownership, and offering something in return. I believe a great many settlements would be open to that, and, once again, it encourages guilds to actually work on reaching out to the rest of the server.

Having factions bid upon these properties would entirely undermine the system, at least without some huge overhaul of the faction system. Castles can be used, freely, by any citizen of the owning settlement, and not based upon who-knows-who. Factions on Arelith can be just one person, and if bid upon by factions these areas would immediately stop being inclusive, and instead just once again turn into large private, closed door club houses. To be clear for those that don't understand - if you want to use Darrowdeep or Gloom you only need ot be a citizen of the owning settlement, nobody has to give you a key (though each location does of course contain an interior guildhouse for the local 'lord')

Next, part of the reason I devised these locations, was so settelements could actually fight one another, and be attacked by hostile NPC forces outside of settlements, where it is borderline impossible to manage a conflict without considerable discomfort to bystanders (often newly rolled characters) These are castles are after all. Due to the presence of NPCs one does need DM persmission, but I believe there is a great deal of fun to be had from such events.

Finally, the point often made that this is hard for 'team evil' because there are no evil settlements on the surface. Here's the thing; I don't want any, nor do I want any 'good' settlements. That whole approach just bypasses nuance in favour of interminable PvP. Cities should be shades of grey, always. I don't want McEvil settlement on the surface any more than I want a new Light Keep.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by Eira » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:45 pm

I will admit I haven't read every single thing, but I just want to say I really enjoyed Starglow Tower as it's iconic place as a tower dedicated to Eldath for a place of peace and neutrality.

Plopping a castle right on top of it makes me very sad, and I hope that there can be a way for a place like the Eldathyn Tower to exist again.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by wulfburk » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:39 pm

Well that was mostly due to player fixtures and their roleplay. As mentioned before it was a brog military barracks, far from a place of neutrality. There is no reason why other quarters or places (and there are a bunch of them in isolated regions) cant be set up as another temple.
Irongron wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:37 pm
text
Agree entirely. It is rather weird to complain that characters will roleplay and make agreements between settlements. I believe one nitpick with the brokerage system is when the opposite happens. If Brog wants to make war against cordor and retake darrowdeep, they would.. just invest a huge amount of gold in the auction. it is rather weird imo.

I would certainly love to see some way of these castles and keeps changing hands through war roleplay with DM guidance and consent on both parts. Though i am aware that all it could result is turn arelith in a pvp conquest mode akin battlefield. So its probably way too risky. Still, there might some way to do it. With all these new siege weapons.... something to think about.

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Re: Dark Spires Castle.

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:01 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:37 pm
Words
I love the look of the new castle, and look forward to taking a chance to explore it! As always, lovely work Irongron.

I would disagree a bit on the land brokage system, as it really is decided by who has the most gold. Not all settlements are created equal, meaning just to compete for land often requires players to go to much greater lengths than other settlements get just by virtue of existing. I read somewhere that Cordor earns 100 000 gold per RL day, which is 12 million gold, just for existing, per auction. I don't know the numbers for other settlements, but given the sheer number of shops and quarters in Cordor I know Guldorand/Myon/Bendir are at a distinct disadvantage. Brogendenstein has a lot of well positioned shops (and have proven to be very good at making gold!).

It would be nice if losing the bid didn't cost you gold. If Bendir puts up 3 million gold and gets outbid by rich Cordor at 4 million, having the sting of not winning the territory AND losing gold on top of that just means that the poorer settlements are unlikely to participate at all.

Alternatively if it wasn't blind bidding then at least you know how much gold you have to spend to acquire it, and losing a fraction of your gold for losing doesn't feel as painful since it wasn't blind.

But really, this new castle looks so lovely; and I love Darrowdeep and Gloom as well. Great work!
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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