Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

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Airport Proximity Jesus
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:26 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm
Yeah, thanks ADDK for that post. It's really facinating and something that has made me think too.
I felt embarrassed at making a homosexual character on this server once I realized how much of a meme it is here, because I felt like I was now contributing to the problem.
I worry about this too, and I think it brings up a really intresting question...

On the one hand I think it's very good to have a vareity of characters of all races/sexualities/so on, firstly because it creates a larger vareity of interesting stories and themes. But also because yes, soppy SJW I am, I like to think it encourages a larger acceptence in society.

On the other there is a risk of... let us say... presenting these types poorly? Fetishising, sterotyping, or just being disrespectful.

I can't really speak much from an LGBT perspective, or a ethnicity one, but from a gender perspective it does make me wince when some men play women as little more than giggling, sexualized airheads.

Then again I remember that there's also a lot of female characters (I daresay nowadays the majority), played by men, who are played really really well.

We talked about this on another thread as I recall, and my own personal opinion hasn't changed. That ultimatly it's... just what it is. That we can't... or rather we shouldn't 'ban' people from playing such concepts, because even if they're done badly at least they're being done - and that is nice. And also because it'd be difficult to enforce and, lets face it, an entire server made out of nothing but streight white male guys would be really dull.

I suppose all we can do is ask players to be mindful when doing such things, to do their best, and to try and be tolerent and gentle when we see it being done badly. I think.
I think it teeters on fetishization here mainly because there are overwhelmingly more lesbians than gays- that being said, I also don't really care. Do as you will and all that. I'll also note that literally every single VOIP I've been in for a server, there's at least one or two women talking and a few more who either don't have a mic or don't want to talk. Ratio wise that's WAY higher than I'm used to seeing in almost any other place I hang out, sans one.

But then there's the thousandfold secret formed in the dark magics of the ancient world - the server has tons of women playing men!!!
8-) Cool kids wear shades during the endless night 8-)

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:50 am

Just so I can say I answered the OP, I'll pitch in.

1: I have noticed a huge number of characters with exaggerated or inflated physical descriptions, but both equally in male and female characters. It's just a lot easier to see and read or explain "Beauty" from other context, but is more easily ignored when reading "Muscular" or "handsome". The word "Chiseled" And "Rugged" are seen all over the place in male descriptions, and are often descriptors for male attractiveness.

2: I do not see it as an issue. Yes, there seems a point when you read it in every description and simply gloss over, and even come to expect it in some, but simply having an "Attractive" description isn't enough on it's own to be an issue. That is, again, with the caveat that it is on it's own. God emoting is always bad, even in a description. ("You find them attractive", "You want them to like you", etc.)

3: Of all the female characters I have ever played, only one was attractive. Granted I haven't played any recognizable or incredible female characters, But even if I had, I don't think I would have felt pressured to include it.

Anecdote (Run away now if you value your time!):

I feel like a large part of the issue with seeing "attractive" descriptions comes from a simple desire to "Be everything". To be more specific, when we think of someone "Great" in fantasy stories, the first thing that pops into our mind is physical appearance. If you imagine a knight, he's going to be handsome. If you imagine a princess, she is going to be beautiful; They are ancient tropes dating back past any of our social stigmas. Even a quick image search of a rogue, a bard, a paladin, and even a (young*) wizard shows this exists beyond Arelith.

The rogue has a gruff ruggedness to him that makes him attractive; and obviously the bard is going to flaunt her luscious hair. The paladin is ever a symbol beauty, and the wizard has more Charm than the spell could ever offer him. There are tropes integrated into all class types, and it's easy to fall into them unless the player actively steps back and takes a moment to think clearly. Whether they have a high charisma score or not, when you're playing someone else, it's way too easy to imagine them as something they are not, even if you created them! This is simply the result of creativity being at it's greatest when held within boundaries.

However, I offer this advice without reading all of the five pages leading up to me: (And surely state it too late)

Encourage the players themselves to roleplay inadequacies, weaknesses, and otherwise, and I think you'll find the problem solves itself. Help them realize just how cool you can make your warped old paladin, who has long since lost his attractiveness, or the young sorceress who covers her hideous face but has the will of a hundred fierce commanders. Show them that your average Joe can get a one up on them despite their beauty, Or heck, make a character that actively targets beauty! Make them think beauty is a detriment to have through roleplay! Play an old hag who wishes to steal the beauty back from the young and ungrateful, or a deranged wizard that attempts to dissect beauty from people in order to create the perfect bride.

Granted, that's all a lot easier said than done; and no matter how hard you try, you'll never help everyone get passed that wall. But it is in this case that I say that our little world of Arelith is perfect in it's imperfections, and so too, are our characters. If players want their characters to be perfect over and over, they will~ get tired of it eventually. They'll either leave, or decide to roll up something unique and interesting, which is exactly what we all do.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:10 pm

i find it funny that when you have two male toons standing beside each other nd if you read both descrips, one is a massive 7'2 warror and the other is a 5'10 mage and because neither player paid attention to the entry prompts to use the taller or shorter to make any variant, they both are the same model both in height and build visually
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:15 am

Aelipse1 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am
(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character)
Image
8-) Cool kids wear shades during the endless night 8-)

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:12 am

Chrisjen Avasarala, The Expanse.
YES!
Ehem sorry. carry on.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Arigard » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:24 pm

I know there are many people who have the opinion of "play what you want to play" regardless of whether the stats line up, but I'm firmly of the belief it should be highly encouraged to play your character sheet more.

The wisdom/intelligence/charisma stats are supposed to be just as important to role-play and character as the strength/dex/con attributes are. The difference is, outside of saves and spells, in Arelith it's hard to constantly find social ways to use these stats, but they are intended to be used in this way to balance out the creation of a character.

Having 42 strength but 6 intelligence, is a risk/reward approach. You get massive benefits, at the expense of not being wise/beautiful/a master genius thinker etc. This doesn't hamper RP, it actually creates interesting scenarios where you are forced to think about your character not as a reflection of yourself, but as an actor so you can play out those stats in game. This distances not only the events that happen to that character from you as a player, but allows you to become more objective about when RP happens because you aren't as attached to the persona you are creating.

Having a character with low charisma that then has descriptions of beauty and attractiveness plastered over their bio, to me, is what should not really be occurring. Charisma is, as written a decider of attractiveness. I know people try to disagree with this, but by the letter of the law of the mechanics, this is how it is. In that regard, if you want a beautiful character, play something that has invested into the stats to achieve that, just like you would if you wanted to have a character with ridiculous carry weight, or that is able to climb etc etc.

There should IMO be as much give and take with the social mechanics as there is with the physical (I think it's very good they tied languages for example to intelligence). How that is achieved in reality? I am not sure, nobody wants to be dice rolling 24/7, but it does get a little over the top when 90% of people you meet are "Stunning beautiful" in their descriptions and then you hover over them to see "low charisma".

So on the one hand, I don't really see that much of a problem with the use of attractiveness (up to a point) in bio's, but that should only be occurring IMO when it actually matches the actual character sheet.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Ork » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:36 pm

rollplay is literal anathema to having a well developed, interesting, multidimensional character.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Scylon » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:24 pm

"play what you want to play"

Imma keep doing just that. If I want to play my short, fat smelly dwarf, or a ripped good looking human, imma do it. It's not for anyone else to say what someone can or can't play.

If someone is put off by what my description says, that's fine, keep walking. I like most play this as an escape.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Arigard » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:49 am

Scylon wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:24 pm
"play what you want to play"

Imma keep doing just that. If I want to play my short, fat smelly dwarf, or a ripped good looking human, imma do it. It's not for anyone else to say what someone can or can't play.

If someone is put off by what my description says, that's fine, keep walking. I like most play this as an escape.
At no point did anyone say you shouldn't. The above comment was related to how people play their characters in relation to their actual character sheet, not what kind of concept they want to come up with.

If my character walks up to someone and their description says "Low charisma" but their description says they are stunningly attractive, my characters are going to react to the "Low charisma", just like they would to someone with "Low strength".

The attributes and the choosing of pathways and choices exist for a reason is all I'm saying. If someone so desperately wants to play the drop dead bombshell everyone stops in the street and waxes lyrical over, they are free to do that by investing in charisma imo, just like they are free to play a dex, str, or con build that come with their own mechanical and social benefits.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:58 am

I will never be convinced that charisma affects your surroundings before you did anything. You gotta talk, or at least look at people in a certain way and carry yourself in a certain way for this charisma to take affect. I refuse to cope with anyone (including nwn's description for the matter) saying that charisma decides if the character is sexually attractive. This is cheap god-emoting at it's finest. If your character is charming - RP it. Dont write it in your bio. The fact it's one of the parameters of the examine is already useless enough.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by SkipiusEsq » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:24 am

I agree that your character sheet should be roleplayed. The stats are as much of a description of your character as the race, gender, and class. If the stats themselves were meaningless then there would be no -mimic command. The purpose of -mimic is to trick people into believing you are different that you actually are.

And you are absolutely allowed to RP your character however you want. If you, by all means RP someone that is naive about their own shortcomings, believe they are beautiful when they are actually hideous, and strong when they can barely lift a sword.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Scylon » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:11 am

Arigard wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:49 am
At no point did anyone say you shouldn't. The above comment was related to how people play their characters in relation to their actual character sheet, not what kind of concept they want to come up with.
Apologies, that wasn't a crack at you in particular, I just grabbed the "quote". It was a comment at the topic in question.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by SkipiusEsq » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:50 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:58 am
I refuse to cope with anyone (including nwn's description for the matter) saying that charisma decides if the character is sexually attractive.
If "sexually attractive" is equated with "physically attractive" then this is exactly one of the things that charisma describes. From the 3.5 Players Handbook: "Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

However, while "physically attractiveness" is a part of charisma, it is only one part. Not all sorcerers are beautiful. They can be below-average in appearance but have a strong personality and persuasiveness about them that overcomes any limitations placed on them by their beauty. I'm sure we all know people in real life who are physically unattractive and yet are compelling and draw people in with a strong ability to lead. We also likely know people who are physically attractive yet have an abysmal personality that makes you want to avoid them at all costs.

I guess for those wanting to play a beautiful character with a low charisma score, they should be playing their characters in such a way as to offset that beauty with personality netting a low score. Similarly, someone can play a nice person that is generally nice to be around but is so unattractive that the net result is still low.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Might-N-Magic » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:01 pm

Just a reflection of reality.
Females spend a lot of time on appearance in general. Makeup, jewelry.
Males less so. Women aren't as much interested in the man's looks as in so much of what he is and can do.
It's the way of most things in nature. Attractiveness attracts mates. Big piles of rocks attracts mates.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:15 pm

Touching on the charisma aspect, I think I'm in agreement with Skipius here. I think it's fine to rp perhaps one or two aspectos of charisma higher than it might be , so long as it shows out on other things.

Also - thought. I'm not perfect when it comes to who the *looks* function works, but I'm not entirely convinced that a 10 in Charisma - which is theoretically just 'average' wouldn't in fact show up as 'low.'
So one can build a character with the intent of being pretty average (or even slightly above average) but in comparison to other stats it may still show up as sub par? (I'm not sure about this, those more familiar with the system will probably educate me better)

Also Charisma is a bit wierd because well.. Ok so let's look at the aspects of it (I'll also give some thoughts to things iMO it might tie to? But this is just pie in the sky thoughts, nothing for anyone to really take too seriously)

*Attractiveness (possibly tied into relitivly high physial stats?)
*Force of Personality (Perhaps tied into wisdom a bit?)
*Social Grace (Perhaps tied into inteligence a bit?)
*How Much People Like You. (Ohh good luck!!)

That last one is the wierd one, because it's honestly not something that you have much controle over, as a character. In fact, sometimes playing a high charisma in other ways can come across as really snobbish, and irritating. I think you can roleplay that your character is innatly 'dislikable' if you work at it - but you really have to sabotage yourself. So I'd personally never hook the 'how much people like you' into my character too much... which is to say I wouldn't feel bad if I had an 8 charisma, but lots of people liked me.

Finally - as a DM - I don't tend to sweat over character sheets /too/ much. Really where this comes in is RPR rating and yeah, if a character has an 8 Charisma but is playing themselves as a drop dead bombshell of social grace and poise, then I might think less of them. But what I look more for is less 'rps their character sheet to the minutist detail' and more 'roleplays a fun and interesting character, who's sheet idealy at least has a passing resembelence to their roleplay.'
This too shall pass.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Dr. B » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:57 pm

It's clear that the "mental" stats (wis, cha, int) in D&D are very crudely distinguished. "Wisdom" often includes skills that clearly overlap with intelligence and charisma (social skills, "perception," logical reasoning, etc.). Not to mention that real life has no point buy system. My advice would be to not to overthink them, because ultimately this is a fictional game that doesn't approximate the real world and doesn't really make sense outside of its own fictional game logic.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Ninjimmy » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:37 pm

Yeah, Charisma is kind of hard to play if you go beyond the physically attractive bit because if you lack it IRL or have an abundance IRL, it's gonna bleed through.

If you're the kind of person who can socialise easily and make friends everywhere, even if your Cha is 10 you'll be have a real magentic charm thing going on. Conversely, you can have a Cha of 30 but if you just don't know HOW to act a certain way, your character will likely lack that force of personality.

Not to mention, since RP is pretty much entirely social, everyone needs to be at least PASSABLE at it to really engage, the amount of anti-social RPers who pulled it off well is a pretty short list imo (shout out to Ruprecht as an example that springs to mind, lives in a cave, acted like he hates everyone but always able to interact with)

Though I suppose this applies to all the "mental" stats, if you lack knowledge or common sense IRL it's gonna be harder to act intelligent or wise IG too.

Just feels like Charisma is the hardest one to bluff (imo, happy to be corrected)
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Nitro » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:46 pm

An underwear model who fits every marker for a classical 10/10 beauty could still be completely socially inept, vapid or otherwise entirely uninteresting to actually talk to. Likewise a character can be beautiful but shallow and thereby have a low charisma score. Or thunderously ugly but compellingly captivating with a high charisma score.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Arigard » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:09 pm

Nitro wrote:Likewise a character can be beautiful but shallow and thereby have a low charisma score.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.
According to the rule-set though, the above statement simply isn't true. Charisma is a factor of how physically attractive a character is in the conventional sense and choosing to interpret it like that is simply a way around the rules as they are written.

Saying that, I don't think anyone has an issue with characters being reasonably attractive across the board if they so desire it, even with low charisma. This is more about the extremes at the positive end, rather than enforcing the negatives imo.

It is when there is a mismatch between the amount of characters rolling around with average/low charisma who in their descriptions are somehow the most stunningly beautiful, jaw dropping models you've ever seen in your life and have it plastered all over their bios that it starts to get a little absurd.

It's one thing to consider your character a fairly good looking person regardless of charisma score, it's another to use bios to wax lyrical about being the literal vision of pure beauty and then hover over them and see "Charisma low/average" & then attribute RP to try and achieve that for the character. That to me feels like the bleeding of a desire to create a 'perfect version' of something and it makes it a little awkward on the receiving end to RP. You wouldn't aim to RP an 8 str character as the strongest man alive (And actually mean it) because there are simply too many mechanical ways to shoot holes in that RP that cannot justify it. So why is there an obsession with doing so for physical looks/attractiveness?

It's different if as Skipius says, it's made clear it is their opinion of themselves and they are simply delusional as a character arc, but how are others supposed to RP seeing a bio like that and then inspecting to see "Charisma low". They wouldn't walk up and be like "Wow look at the muscles on this guy!" if they inspected someone that is clearly low strength (unless it's some kind of joke), so why would they be doing the same if they didn't get affirmation from the system that the mechanics in place justify it for that role play pathway?

There's so many drop dead gorgeous female PC's and 6ft8+ gigachad males walking around that sometimes it's like Arelith Love Island edition :lol: And I get why people do it and use the game as an escape, but the world is honesty a lot more interesting and engaging when characters embrace their flaws, weaknesses & fears into their role-play rather than trying to stamp them out and ending up a reflection of the same perfected identity that has been seen 1000x before.

RP is most engaging across the board for all when characters grow, struggle, overcome adversity and go through journeys of redemption/fall from grace etc and form those multi faceted parts of their personality. It's hard to do that when they are already perfect from the outset.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Nitro » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:18 pm

The problem is that the quote you have lists 5 attributes that are not reliant one one another. One can have a great personality without having any ability to lead, be beautiful without having any personal magnetism and so on. It's literally useless and open to interpretation. So therefore you have the "CHARISMA IS/ISN'T BEAUTY" debates spanning several real life decades because the writers of the early D&D editions didn't really know what they wanted CHA to be and it kinda stuck.
Last edited by Nitro on Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Gouge Away » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:20 pm

Sometimes I think instead of high fantasy we're playing versions of Marvel superheroes in a medieval/steampunk setting.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Dr. B » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:40 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:37 pm
Yeah, Charisma is kind of hard to play if you go beyond the physically attractive bit because if you lack it IRL or have an abundance IRL, it's gonna bleed through.
Yeah, my favorite are high wis PCs who act like three-year olds because their players have terrible judgment, or are literally children.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Bunnysmack » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:39 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:40 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:37 pm
Yeah, Charisma is kind of hard to play if you go beyond the physically attractive bit because if you lack it IRL or have an abundance IRL, it's gonna bleed through.
Yeah, my favorite are high wis PCs who act like three-year olds because their players have terrible judgment, or are literally children.
SOME of those characters are the clergy or servants of chaotic deities that actively push very "YOLO" mindsets on their faith, so on occasion this set up makes sense from a lore standpoint; However, this certainly isn't always the explanation...
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:59 pm

SkipiusEsq wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:50 pm
However, while "physically attractiveness" is a part of charisma, it is only one part. Not all sorcerers are beautiful.
That was exactly my point and you made it for me.

There's an ocean of difference between saying that an ability score affects something (along with god knows how many other factors that come into it) and saying that ability alone describes the whole area. Charisma affects attractiveness through the power of the personality. That's a real thing from reality too. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and people can seem ugly when you meet them first but become prettier over time - to you - as you get to know and love them. That's at least a part of the idea behind charisma. Unfortunately, because of objectification - things like "heavily muscled, war scars, spits and grunts and hot tempered" decide attractiveness more than how the charisma is RPed by the subject and the perceiver in front of them in the game. Sorry if I repeat stuff that was already said.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Dr. B » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:26 am

I have to call humbug on the people here who are saying that physical attractiveness doesn’t guarantee charisma. Sorry, but I’m not buying it. Although physical attractiveness is not necessary for charisma, it seems it is sufficient for charisma, and is certainly likely to equate to at least above average charisma. People are more interested in beautiful people, tend to rate their intangible qualities higher, and want to be acknowledged by them. Attractive people also tend to be more successful and popular. This is because their attractiveness gives them influence over others, including those who are not sexually oriented towards them. Affiliating with them confers social benefits and we're innately wired to discern this. There are countless studies in social psych bearing this out, and so does anecdotal evidence. The vapid hot girl sitting on a bar stool probably has more pull with people than you do. If you’re playing a character with 8 charisma who is described as beautiful, it is likely that there is a discrepancy between your character’s ability scores and your portrayal of them.

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