Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

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Exordius
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Exordius » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:58 am

Beauty is entirely subjective and unique to the person viewing it... everyone has their own preferences and tastes. What one person finds pretty another wont.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Cybren » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:36 am

Irongron wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:47 pm
Some years back I really started trying to promote Arelith, but in doing so moved much closer to the world of D&D, as it currently is. Be it on our Twitter account, or various forums I increasingly get an insight into what the current cultural status of this game actually is.

And without wanting to go on at length? Log into Twitter right now and search the hashtag #DnDArt and you'll find a VERY high percentage of the images are sexualised images of female tieflings, drow, or other weird furry stuff, very often in an anime style. My own personal opinion? Fantasy art is agruably less progressive than in the 1970s heyday of chainmail bikinis, where at least the females were generally portrayed as actual (strong) women, despite the obvious objectification. The whole D&D reimagining of D&D races as teenage boys and girls leaves me feeling very cold.
I feel like someone could do a ten part video essay series on how the differences between how popular culture generally, and fantasy art/tabletop games specifically, depicted women in the 70s and the present day. But in brief a lot of that art is being produced as a result of D&D moving into fan communities that are themselves full of women, often queer women, who enjoy making that kind of art, and the framing is different than it was with art primarily produced by the mostly straight dudes of the 70s and 80s. I don't think it's itself relevant to the OP, which is more about how authors tend to write/write about women differently than men, which is something you can see ample examples of in the "men writing women" subreddit (not that I am saying all examples of people saying their character is hot are dudes, or that mentioning that your character is hot is an irrelevant or even harmful detail to include, just that how people write different characters is deeply informed by cultural understandings of gender)

EDIT: Also I think that Frazetta art is a good example of this. Men are empowered in this kind of traditional over the top fantasy art. They have rippling muscles, are portrayed of as the one's Doing Cool Things like battling monsters. Women are objectified, even when depicted doing something they are usually (to use an often memed word) 'lithe', or curvaceous. Often exoticized, frequently shown as vulnerable rather than powerful.

CNS
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by CNS » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:50 am

We're all playing the heroes or villains of their own stories so I just assume as a blanket that everyone looks like a movie star unless their description says otherwise.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Rico_scorpion » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:07 pm

Here's my hot-take:

For every oversexualized and "beauty-focused" female, there is a squared-jaw muscular alpha male counterpart or its more subtle alternative"Aragorn-clone" (which is still an idealized male stereotype). Also, I see just as many people spending time selling their visual awesomeness on the male side as the female side [And that's perfectly fine provided character sheet isn't betrayed].

One could make a case that "both genders" are caricatures and that it is a problem (meh), but I certainly see as confirmation bias the "females have it worse".

Truth is, fantasy idealizes things, that's in the DNA of the genre, just like you will find a "everything is grey or dark" within "dark fantasy". So, in a fantasy setting, evil is idealized evil, goodies are idealized goodies, everything is very "archetypal", and yes, males often are idealized mens (tall, muscular, leaders, brave, etc) or manlets (traitors, cowards, etc), females have very appealing curves and can carry full plate armor with thin bones and no muscles, etc... and frankly, I do not see any (moral) issue with that. If anything, it leads to lack of variety and become boring, but RP quality is not the topic at hand.

The idea that the fantasy setting can be analyzed as just the continuation of our real world beliefs always felt wrong and belittling of the players/gamers intellect. Like they are too moronic to understand the hyperbolic/powerfantasy nature of a fantasy setting and might mistake that as a continuation of real life. People know this is not reality, they know this is idealized and shouldn't be taken seriously. They just want an "out" where things are more "clear cut/pristine/idealized"; to live a "(power) fantasy". Most of us are average looking, what's wrong in wanting to be good looking in your online avatar?

I see much more of a cultural issue in the global trend to suspect, accuse, point fingers at fiction/people's fun or double guess people's intentions or cultural influences as if the only way to be woke would be to virtue-signal left and right in every piece of fiction. Even a "people are sexist in their avatar descriptions, but that's not their fault, it's society, i'm not pointing fingers", feels wrong to me. We are playing a character on arelith, not the extension of a political agenda or a carbon copy of society's influences or a reflection of our deep psychë.

As for being "hit on" by males when female, I can totally concur how offputting that can be... I just very much don't see the point of bringing it up as "female issue only"... for example in my very first character (which happened to be a male), and very first experience with online RP on Arelith, the much younger me (11 years ago) got "pulled" semi-reluctantly into seduction-romance RP by a female character (I say semi reluctantly because i was an adult, i was offput by it but in character it made sense for the romance to happen, so i let my character roll with stuff that I as a player didn't want, call that inexperience, I'm not complaining). That was no exception either. Honestly, I got "hit on" more with my males chars than with my females ones... and no i'm not AT ALL looking for that type of rp. Not my cup of tea.

Just an internet opinion, in a sea of internet opinions.

Cheers.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by sarithia » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:56 pm

This is something I've always been opinionated about to the point where I'll rip into it on my main a little bit.
I'm all for physical descriptions of characters, and I love it, in fact. My main qualm isn't, however, people saying their characters are 'stunning' or 'beautiful', it's how they're represented. When I first started playing again roughly a year ago I think, it was utterly frustrating, especially as a female player, to see that a lot of female characters where your basic waifu models, with no pants, descriptions that where basically 'lol im hawt', and flirted with every single thing that walked through the door, usually another similar female. Lately, however, I've seen this grow sparser and sparser. There's more strong women, muscle women, scarred and mottled women, and basically all different types of female characters represented in roleplay and it's made me super happy. I don't know if it's because we've gotten different players in or something, but it truly is something I've noticed that has changed in the last few months.
As for the 'hit on' thing, I've only experienced it in tiny, tinnnnny doses. The worst thing was having people send me tells where they're essentially saying 'lol these two are perfect together' when my character Anakhsun is as 'flirty' or as romantically suggestive as a turnip.

tldr; yes it's frustrating, but it's something that you generally have to accept in a fantastical environment.

Greivern Elisbrinn [Active]
Yaen Oakenshade [We'll see]
Anakhsun Emeratu [Shelved]
Jihael [Dead]
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Irongron » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm

I think there is another point here, one I raised in an associated chat, and that is that, like it or not, the romance roleplay is a very large part of the appeal for many players, thus the attractiveness of player-characters is given considerable attention.

Personally I think the 'men playing women' argument for these descriptions is often overstated; we have a great many female players, and I don't think either gender takes a different approach in describing their characters - most are generally wanting to play someone physically appealling (whatever benchmark they have for that).

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Curve » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:21 pm

Pushing against the PG13 limits in some areas of rp does not bother me, but when people through their characters make comments alluding to sex or aggressively hitting on other characters I feel they are doing something as bad as can be done on Arelith. Legit children play this game.

Edit*
I guess I should answer the actual questions too.

1) Yes.
2) Yes. But, I don’t think we are going to solve it here. I don’t say that to dissuade conversation, I think the conversation is a healthy one and in and of itself moves the collective mind forward.
3) No pressure. But I am a grown Snuggybear person with life experiences and such. I make all my characters ugly for similar reasons as above.
Last edited by Curve on Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:32 pm

I really don't have much to say on the main topic, save perhaps it might be somewhat offensive to the pretty people of the world.

#hottielivesmattertoo


-XXX- wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:37 pm
I'd say that the description should accurately represent the character sheet.

If a character happens to have a high CHA stat, then I'd say that hinting at their physical attractiveness might be one of the ways to describe such character - female or otherwise.

Characters with a low CHA stat should probably not be described as physically attractive in their character description - female or otherwise.
I know the game (nwn) says charisma is based on physical attractiveness, but really if you are a beautiful man or woman and your personality is akin to a park bench, I would consider that low charisma. On the flip side, you could be totally busted with a great personality and people will still gravitate toward you. More so then any stat, I think the definition of charisma is very flexible. If I had one complaint its that 8 charisma characters were often played as very charismatic, because power yo....but that has changed a lot in the past year because with the dominance of divine dips you need dat charisma for saves/ac/damage.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Naiinara » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:04 pm

"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting...."

That is from the manual for neverwinter nights (yes I still have it). Now I don't want to say "oh you got to role play it this way". It's just something to consider, that the sum total might be more than just physical.

I had a character whose description was "...smells of oiled leathers dust and sweat. Her nose appears to have been broken at least once..." I had set her charisma as low. I thought her abrasive loud mouth personality and that appearance meant it should be, but during play it really felt like it was higher.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Crookedblossom » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:14 pm

To answer OP’s original questions:

1. I think I’ve come across a fair amount of variety in character description, with mixed results from both male and female PCs. I tend not to spend much time parsing through very long descriptions and just skim over them to pick up the main points. From my personal perspective, I enjoy it far more when someone describes what their character looks like without simply saying, “they’re attractive.” Obviously, both players and PCs are going to have varying ideals of attractiveness.

2. I don’t think it’s really a problem at all. Just like in real life, there are going to be PCs who focus more on appearance than personality and that’s okay! That’s a character trait, a flawed character trait. A woodsy sort might turn their snoot up at a prim and proper man/woman who places more stock in their appearance than in functionality. I think these descriptions are fine, personally, and can contribute to roleplay in some unexpected ways.

3. As a female player, I don't feel pressured to conform to physical standards when I read character descriptions, no. I often choose the second phenotype model (aka, the fat model) because I enjoy representing that in the setting. My characters never draw attention to this trait IC and I’ve found that it’s rare that others do it. My characters have been made fun of a bit IC before, and that’s also okay! I don’t take it personally. Again, reacting to character traits listed in the description can contribute to roleplay! I enjoy seeing my character be the representation that I never get to be in literally any other video game. And again, I disagree that this isn't seen in male character descriptions. It's just worded differently. A description full of how gruff/scarred/battle-hardened a man is might be an attractive trait to some.

And I do want to commend NWN and the Arelith team for supporting this variation and providing clothing types in updates that accommodate the second phenotype. I don’t know how it’s the year of our lord 2020 and this old game is still the only video game where I can play a character this way.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:25 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:51 pm
1. Do other players experience similarly?
Yes. Though male PCs are not free from this. Their descriptions still point to aspects of stereotypical cisgender physical attractiveness (e.g., strong, tall, toned physique).

This goes beyond the player descriptions. It is perhaps important to point to a phase in Arelith history where there was a large number of female PC's not wearing any pants. Not saying this isn't a thing any more, but at some point it was comically over-represented.

Game developers also contributed to this. Simply look at the in-game models of the two genders (even though they are both hard to attain physical forms, see for example how female character models walk) and how the equipment appearance changes between the two.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:51 pm
2. Are these actual problems?
Yes. They are indicative of our player base and what "we" fantasize about. I say "we" because I do not want to appear like I'm saying that I am free from my own biases.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:51 pm
3. Do players of female PCs feel a pressure to include language around their character's physicality/attractiveness? Why isn't this a thing for male characters?
No. Though, if self-disclosure is necessary given the topic, I am cisgender male from a mostly privileged background. I tend to play physically non-attractive PCs (both male and female, and at one point a genderless character). Although I am far from a prude, I avoid sexualization and sexual content on Arelith, not just because it is a PG-13 server, but because I personally prefer it out of an RPG.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Emotionaloverload » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:26 pm

Naiinara wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:04 pm
"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting...."
^ This. Also remember that NPCs IG will describe characters as attractive that have high CHA when you use -investigate on them.

To me, there is nothing wrong with describing the character as attractive (its not as though it says "Everyone will think the character is a stunner!") It gives me an understanding of the direction you are going in since not everyone is good at descriptions. I personally prefer to have it explained what about them is then considered beautiful (So-and-so is beautiful because of her round, girlish features and uniform curls). Like that you get a better understanding if that might be something your character would consider beautiful but even if that isn't there, I don't consider it godmoding by any stretch of my imagination. Its just a more basic descriptor.

CHA is a skill for many classes and shouldn't be disparaged when people use the stat IG the way it is listed. I think it has more to do with class choice than any pressures (at least none that I have ever had).

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Halibutthead » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:49 pm

there is a lot less "your doin it wrong. please conform to what i want the world to be" here than i was expecting, so that's pretty cool, guys

anyways, i'll weigh in.

1.) do other players experience similarly? yes

2.) are these actual problems? no!

3.) Do players of female PCs feel a pressure to include language around their character's physicality/attractiveness? Why isn't this a thing for male characters? no, of course not for the first question, and no reason to answer the second because it's led by the first.

so, here's the thing, guys. while we can look at everyone and see patterns and groups, stereotypes and similarities, the fact is, each character is an *individual* character, and should be judged that way (if we're judging at all). *no one* is wrong to think "yes, my character that i have created in my mind is attractive" whether they are male or female, and everyone has the right to imagine their own character the way that they want to, even if someone else thinks it's offensive that others "may" think a certain way.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by niar3tir » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:56 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:35 pm
[...] just look at the rippling muscularity [..]
Couldn't resist. Carry on

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by DM Rex » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:35 pm

This is actually a problem that can and does exist in game.

They can be actual problems when people focus too much on the sensual features of their characters. When people are either leaning towards excessive focus or very much already are (think boobs, butt, etc) let the DM Team know and we can work towards a resolution.

Players should choose sensible ways of portraying their characters having high charisma without being excessive or graphic.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Halibutthead » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:05 pm

I think those individuals don't make up a relevant portion of the population because, in large part, it is intelligently enforced already.

By and large, people seem to like thinking about pretty girls more than pretty boys, so that's what we get descriptions of. And those descriptions tend to vary wildly on eloquence and focus. This isnt a cultural problem, its the result of fantasy based creativity in an RPG world. We literally just like pretty girls who do heroic things. Thats not a problem at all

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:09 pm

1. Do other players experience similarly?
Absolutely and it's weird to me to see people saying they don't experience it. I would bet pennies that I can log on at any time when there are others online and find someone with their description belaboring just how humongous booba HONK HONK MOMMY MILKERS AHOOOGA AHOOOOOOOGA BAWRK BARK their PC is
2. Are these actual problems?
there are multiple layers to these problems and they shall be problematized and Unpacked
3. Do players of female PCs feel a pressure to include language around their character's physicality/attractiveness? Why isn't this a thing for male characters?
I try to actively avoid the typical cliches (lean, muscular, boobalicious, etc) unless i legitimately want to make a jojo's character in game then i go all out


First we have the structural problem that the game itself is dated and its default character models are HONK HONK MOMMY MILKERS AHOOOOOOGA AHOOOOOOGA for the female PCs and also the male PCs in their overly muscled and dehydrated body compositions, so quite literally the default is this weird body-builder template with which we are forced to reconcile (not to mention the Boob Window that plagues every female PC clothing choice// shoutout to the robes for mitigating this partially with some of the options!)
And remember WYSIWYG so if I were to take this literally, any PC seen shirtless is to be Gotten as RIPPED, MUSCLED, LEAN, BOOBY!
Of course this is disingenuous as to how people ACTUALLY play

Next we have the cultural problem where in wider fantasy this objectification and over sexualization of men and women in the genre is rabidly defended by an anti-feminist faction on the Internet as "Waggghhh the feminists are taking over male spaces!" when we see this is not the case as fantasy has always been a genre that has Women as stakeholders in the genre. I'm not saying this is necessarily something on Arelith or in game but it should be taken into account when describing the culture of aesthetics around PCs.

I think that this is a problem because, for those that aren't interested in HONK HONK MOMMY MILKERS it's just annoying at best, game-stopping at worst. Personally I find myself less willing to make a female PC when I go through all the clothing options and am forced to contend with the Boob Window at almost every option and I find myself grateful that Arelith does not allow sexy elven fun times.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:25 pm

I've seen the sexy female profile thing. But likewise, as someone else pointed out, male profiles are often tall and handsome or rugged. I don't think it's problematic, people want to make their characters attractive based on what society (or the player!) considers attractive. So it stands to reason that female characters are described using female attractive words, and male characters are described using male attractive words. I also think these things are also outlier. Most people don't do it. It only stands out when people do. Just like how most people don't fill their profile with colours, it only stands out when people use 5 different colours rotating through the entire thing.

I think another question could be asked about ugly characters. Usually it's only male characters who use the fat body shape, and even then, it's usually half-orcs. I don't see many bald or middle age characters. And ugly is often an extreme, with descriptions trying to make a character as unappealing as possible. And some ugly characters are very, very low int as well. What does this say about how society perceives ugly? Why do people focus on critiquing things being attractive, but don't do the same for portrayals of ugly?

Overall this is a fantasy game and I don't think people should be shamed for making their character look a certain way (within reason. I'll raise an eyebrow at kobolds/gnolls in dresses). If people want a pretty character, sure. If people want to explore social issues with their character within the constraints of a fantasy setting, sure! But I don't think people should be forced to do one or the other.

Personally I play average looking characters. I usually just describe eye colour and noticeable things about them, like Garrett's clothing has a lot of pockets and vials, Corinne's clothing is finely tailored. I don't include height because defining height takes away from that averageness. And height is defined when you make character, so, I don't think it matters anyways.
I experimented with writing a more personality-driven profile on Corinne, which doesn't load after I remove disguise sadly, I should try fixing that.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:29 pm

I am glad everyone is enjoying this discussion! And people have been respectful. I just want to chime in with a few points.

> The catalyst for asking this question was because, over the past week or so, I have been in a room with over 10+ PCs on several occasions, and have often noted how many females use language related to physical attractiveness - voluptuous, curvy, beautiful, radiant, exquisite, etc.

And I will acknowledge my own biases, as Cybren also notes, because I do notice this a lot more than male PCs being described as rugged, macho, muscular, and so forth.

I certainly resonate with male PCs when they have descriptions that describe them as masculine, or what have you, out of the traditional norms of masculinity.

I do think, and have long thought, that the sexualization of female PCs makes me a lot more nervous than the sexualization of male PCs. However, I'm also the guy who thinks Sibayad is designed with Orientalism in mind and is basically a deeply problematic analogue of Middle-Eastern culture, so just shove me off a cliff and ignore me.

> I also think the idea of "oh this is just what fantasy is in media" is a poor defense. It actually compounds the common criticism one has for fantasy - it's escapist problematic nonsense, where boobs are big, and muscles are thick, and gender roles are imported and accepted yet somehow dragons are totally serious bsns.

Notions of traditional real world masculinity and feminity being imported into a fantastical setting is really not at all fantastical. It's reality imagined. Maybe I can get into an argument with someone here about it, but maybe that's just futile.

> I am glad the new -description system does encourage more of a structured outlook at descriptions. Maybe it could be tweaked further to emphasis over "feeling" rather than "personality." There are literal descriptions of a 7 foot tall slab of meat, but there are also ways of getting that across that invoke a greater sense of "presence" - or "personality" that Party said above.

> I do think CHA is basically impossible to translate outside of interaction. If a description says they're 'charming', yet they have all the wit of a stone - they're not charming. See the whole "how do I play a high INT character if I myself am just some high school student." This is a lot easier to achieve and convince in writing fiction, because you control all the strings - but this is more like theatre. It's hard to be convincing.

> Delving into what is "sexual" and what is not, in terms of description, I think can be rather objectifying and problematic and I wouldn't want to get into that. My primary concern was whether we were creating an implicit cultural bias about female PCs being written one, and male PCs written the other.

> This is all very interesting to read, and certainly helps in my own writing and roleplay. So I appreciate all the helpful/insightful responses.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm

There is something to be said about overthinking stuff like this.

By saying that, I do not mean to dismiss any concerns people have about the wording and imaging that comes out of some descriptions we find in game. I do understand it, and have seen some stuff that has made me cringe and worry as well.

A big thing to consider, however, are the people behind the types of descriptions being discussed here.

Is it someone horny, looking for some hawt pixelated elven humpy times with strangers? (Sure, I have seen a few of those throughout the years, some to a very worrying, predatory degree).

Or is it, maybe, just some young kid with barely any idea of what he is really doing, in game or in real life? (we know we've seen a bunch of those pass through the server, and even stay, and mature, and learn to do better.)

Or is it, maybe, someone completly new to the concept of rp, just trying to mimic some of the stuff they've read in books and seen on tv and cinema? (we all know this has also always been a big thing)

Or is it, maybe, someone without a masterful grip on the english language, likely as it is not their first, trying to explain their imaginary, awesome avatar, to the best of their ability? ( Also a very, very common occurance. )


All of these are fair, likely possibilities. In my opinion, they are even more likely than some pervasive notion of obligatory female standards and patterns that players (male or female) feel the need to comply to.

And with that in mind, though it would be wonderful to expect everyone to suddenly develop a great degree of nuance and depth in the way that they describe their characters to others, it would also be an unrealistic expectation.

Which leaves us kind of where we already are at the moment:

If someone has an agressively sexual description of their character, report it to the dms. Even more so if it is blatantly reflected through their rp and ooc attitude.
Anything beyond that, tends to fall into the category of rpr and also tends to be managed by sheer community response as well.

Any more policing than that, and we slide into paranoid, finger-pointing territory, which Arelith does not need any more of.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Halibutthead » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:27 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:29 pm
> I also think the idea of "oh this is just what fantasy is in media" is a poor defense. It actually compounds the common criticism one has for fantasy - it's escapist problematic nonsense, where boobs are big, and muscles are thick, and gender roles are imported and accepted yet somehow dragons are totally serious bsns.

Notions of traditional real world masculinity and feminity being imported into a fantastical setting is really not at all fantastical. It's reality imagined. Maybe I can get into an argument with someone here about it, but maybe that's just futile.
are you refering to media as it's manufactured, or specifically talking about the characters people want to play as?

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:53 am

Halibutthead wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:27 am
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:29 pm
> I also think the idea of "oh this is just what fantasy is in media" is a poor defense. It actually compounds the common criticism one has for fantasy - it's escapist problematic nonsense, where boobs are big, and muscles are thick, and gender roles are imported and accepted yet somehow dragons are totally serious bsns.

Notions of traditional real world masculinity and feminity being imported into a fantastical setting is really not at all fantastical. It's reality imagined. Maybe I can get into an argument with someone here about it, but maybe that's just futile.
are you refering to media as it's manufactured, or specifically talking about the characters people want to play as?
I think the two kinda feed into one another, really? I think the two feed into one another certainly.

I'm going to hold my hands up here and say that I think one of the reasons I've issues playing female characters is that I find it difficult to imagine female characters as /interesting/. And I think part of the reason for that is that I grew up in the 80's/90's TV when generally the main role of a female character was to be the 'love interest.' Female characters that did anything above and beyond pine after some man or other were very rare.

Now this has improved leaps and bounds in the last decade and that's great - but it's a deep seated issue that I still struggle with - to be inspired to play a female character when... on a subconcious level, I tend to associate most of my concepts being male.

There are probably a lot more issues around it than that - but that's a small example.

And by feeding into one another (and again here I am going to use the example more of TV) I mean this

Executives: 'Hay, Iron Man was really popular and is mostly about streight white men! Lets make more of that!'

SWM: 'YAY!' *watches*

Everyone else 'Uh, I don't really see anything of me in this. I think I'll pass.'

Film Maker 'Hay I've an idea for a Super Hero film set in a more african setting...'

Producers: 'But only SWM watch this, black guys don't. There's no audience for this.'

(At which point you get a divergence where either)

A) 'Oh ok - I guess I won't then' (And super hero films are about SWM because OBVOIUSLY only they want to watch it)

or

b) 'Hrm I'm gonna try and make this anyway'

People Of Colour In the World 'Oh wow! wow! It's a fantasy film with people who I can identify with! AWSOME!'

Executaives: 'Huh. Maybe we can diversify a bit... OK time to make Black Panther 2!'



But lets move this to a more personal thing. Make a count in your head of a film, especially in the action/fantasy/scifi genre that featured a woman/women over 40 in anything like a prominent role?
Now do the same for men.
I bet you'll find the latter is more common than the former.
Now look on Arelith and do the same.
Again - I would be very suprised if you didn't find the same situation.

Now again I really really really want to stress, so hard it hurts, I need to stress I am not... particularly pushing any SJW agenda. I think it'd be /nice/ these characters are done a little more, but ultimatly - as so many people have said, this is about FUN! Play what the heck you wanna play! Chill how you wanna chill! Do your thing! This isn't a multi-billion movie, to be seen by millions of people and have massive cultural impact!

This is a gaming server with a few thousand people on it, and that's all so I don't think we need to really take the proverbial lash to our backs.

That said...

Maybe... if you feel like it... try something different and unusual? You may hate it and never do it again. Tottaly fair. Or you may find something fun and new? It's just a little thought.

But anyway yes. I think the two things can and do feed off on one another to an extent, up until someone breaks the mold and people go 'ooh, you can /do/ that!?'
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:32 am

I'm going to attempt a real response to this thread.

First, if we are talking about the over sexualization of descriptions I 100% agree that that could be an issue. I personally don't think sexuality in any form has a place in the game that I want to play, even if I have come to terms with the fact that others do and I consider it a "to each their own" thing these days.

Second, if we are talking about the over representation of fit, attractive people, I actually think that makes perfect sense since really its the fitness that counts the most here. There are very few faces in the world that are hideous barring some scar or disfigurement, and that aspect of attractiveness tends to be down to how well you know how to present yourself with hair style, hygene, ect. Most of our characters are elite adventurers, with few exceptions. So, while the real world may not play out in a way where everyone is a sexy beast because they keep themselves fit, if all you did was go to parties with both male and female athletes you would think our representation makes total sense. And really, adventurers are the fantasy equivalent of real life athletes.

Gouge Away
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 4:38 am

Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Gouge Away » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:32 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:15 pm
This is how it all started. Hate it or love it, this is why we're all here today.
That's a possible origin but I think anime and the Final Fantasy aesthetic is a much bigger influence on the current Arelith meta. 70s style fantasy art had the scantily clad women in chainmail bikinis but it also reveled in grunginess and ugliness and portrayed actual adults, it didn't depict everyone as an impossibly beautiful and elegant eternal teenager like FF. Not knocking FF itself if that's anyone's thing, but I sure see that influence in a lot of Arelith descriptions..

I file most of this under "c'est la vie" though. What are we going to do, police people's creative choices? I don't know what anyone can do beyond setting rules to keep it PG-13.

Huelander
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Huelander » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:52 am

A massive part of the total amount of characters that have been made have either no description at all. Or their only hope for fame and fortune, and to escape the life of a commoner, was to become an adventurer.

So suffice to say, It does not seem that a lot of people feel particullarly pressured about their character descriptions.

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