Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

[Archnon]

So, just going to say, mad props to the community for keeping this a totally respectful discussion! It speaks volumes of the people on this server and what makes it such a nice place to play.

I can only echo a lot of what has been said. I get sick of reading descriptions that invoke the word curvy to describe different anatomical parts. However, there are plenty of male descriptions that aim for similar norms of attractiveness. In the end, it is fantasy and most people want to be attractive. I also think there is just literally nothing we can do about this. You are not going to rewrite gender and body image norms in a game like this. These things are deeply reinforced by culture, as much as they are problematic.

However, I will say, and this is with all due respect to those who organize it, that the arelith portrait pack might be a good place to think about impacting the culture in a concrete way. Honestly, the art is really beautiful and I have immense respect for the team that put it together. It is a really incredible collection. But while there are so many good gems in there that can really lift a character, you have to scroll through an immense amount of sexy elven fun times images that edge up to that pg13 rating. If it were my first time on the server and I took the time to scroll through the full thing, some of the images might give the wrong impression of this server. Also, to be totally selfish, i play a lot of 4 charisma gnomes and man, the ugly gnome pictures are just impossible to find in there amidst the chainmail bikinis. Though perhaps I am approaching my 4 charisma rating all wrong and a chainmail bikini is the way to go. Something to consider I suppose.

[mjones3]

1) I have definitely experienced it. I think its less now than it was before I came back to the server. The addition of the -description +temp features that give height, weight, etc. has cut it down a decent chunk since you don't need to type a "proper" description out to give some basics anymore.

2) I think it is a problem. For reasons Grumpycat went over in her second post here, and because I think attractiveness is often used over multiple other aspects of charisma. From the nwn wiki.

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

I think charisma is counterintuitive in a community/game like this. Its an ability score that doesn't translate well without a DM there to monitor it. In PNP a DM can help shore up a players inability to lead, make a persuasive argument, etc. But here its a sandbox of players and there's no help if someone can't do those things. It often leads to charisma=attractive and while I'm not a fan of it, I understand why.

I think Intelligence and wisdom (not as much) have similar issues

3) I can't comment as I've never played a PC woman.

[fading]

However, I will say, and this is with all due respect to those who organize it, that the arelith portrait pack might be a good place to think about impacting the culture in a concrete way. Honestly, the art is really beautiful and I have immense respect for the team that put it together. It is a really incredible collection. But while there are so many good gems in there that can really lift a character, you have to scroll through an immense amount of sexy elven fun times images that edge up to that pg13 rating. If it were my first time on the server and I took the time to scroll through the full thing, some of the images might give the wrong impression of this server. Also, to be totally selfish, i play a lot of 4 charisma gnomes and man, the ugly gnome pictures are just impossible to find in there amidst the chainmail bikinis. Though perhaps I am approaching my 4 charisma rating all wrong and a chainmail bikini is the way to go. Something to consider I suppose.

Totally skipped my mind, but definitely this. Many of the female portraits in particular are just blatantly oversexualized, and I find it a bit jarring, in particular because this is a PG 13 server. And following on the theme of this thread, the vast majority of the portraits therein are the epitome of conventional beauty standards, especially the ones for women I'd argue, but maybe those are just the ones I focus on.

That said, and this is a bit of a tangent, there is at least one female elf portrait, that shows the character's nipples somewhat, and it is not presented in a sexual way at all, and I personally think it's great. The point is, a woman's body is not inherently sexual, and I don't see why so many of the portraits (and descriptions, I suppose, for that matter) should present it in such a way. It is just, you know, objectifying and dehumanizing.

I don't get to decide what goes in the portraits, and I'm not here trying to enforce what I personally believe and demand change or whatever, but I do believe it's something to think about, at the very least.

[Kuma]

Fantasy art is agruably less progressive than in the 1970s heyday of chainmail bikinis

the MUSCULARITY

i weirdly wouldnt mind a return to the heyday of Heavy Metal style art, or 'sword and sorcery' style as dominating fantasy art styles, just with a touch of the modern world's sensibilities.

Like, come on,



this is sick.

[CNS]

I'd second a look at the portrait pack.

A lot of great work has gone into it from people voulenteering their time and of course you're limited by what art is out there that you can pick from (which I'm sure we all know is pretty skewed).

But often when making a character I find myself scrolling and scrolling looking for something more normal.

Boobs, boobs, boobs, butt, pretty boy, pretty boy, muscle man, boobs, boobs, boobs.

I'm also 99% one of them is an actual photograph, either that or the best photo-realistic drawing I've ever seen, which, I don't know the circumstances why its in there but strikes me as something we probably don't want in our portrait pack for a whole host of reaons.

(Its an elf like lady in green reaching for an apple or something? Near the bottom)

[Eira]

I have noticed, despite explicitly saying in the description that the character wasn't pretty, that my female characters often were hit on, described as beautiful, etc etc.

(Someone ask Preserver sometime about how many people flirted with Lladria despite her literally smelling like rotten milk)

With Akorae, currently, I go into detail specifically about how scarred and messed up her face is, and I try to emote constantly about how her expressions are all twisted and if anyone emotes eyeing her body, I feel like I have to emote back at how she's basically flat as a board, underfed, and scarred.

It's kinda frustrating even though I joke about all her suitors, and the character certainly doesn't mind the attention, I feel like a lot of people don't actually look at descriptions, or just see "the avatar has titties, therefore-"

I also have this issue with my DI. I play them as gender neutral, very androgynous presenting, and with a male pseudonym. But because of the character model appearing to people as Very Female, I'm limited on my rp because if others don't read the description, they'll just disregard all that. I could have chosen a male model, but Tall and Thicc Muscle Man doesn't fit the character at all.

For my male character that is supposed to be pretty, I don't outright say it, but delicate, fine boned, smooth skin, etc, I try to paint a picture of his brand of prettiness.

[The GrumpyCat]

Bit of a tangent, but it's a real shame we can't have more body type modles on NWN. Few of my male characters have been the big beefcakes shown, a lot of t hem have been more on the slender, or slight angle.

[Ninjimmy]

Actually, echoing that again, it is a bit weird that the 8 str wizard who's in his 90's looks like this



"I'm old and decrepit, honest"

[-XXX-]

"I'm old and decrepit, honest"

Clearly the case of a high Bluff score in combination with the proper use of the -mimic feature.

[Ninjimmy]

^ This is how I head canon it now ^

[Eira]

Bit of a tangent, but it's a real shame we can't have more body type modles on NWN. Few of my male characters have been the big beefcakes shown, a lot of t hem have been more on the slender, or slight angle.

This is the main reason I play elves, tbh. I like playing low strength low con frail dweebs that bruise with a single frown, but human male models are painfully buff

[Halibutthead]

I think the two kinda feed into one another, really? I think the two feed into one another certainly.

Grumpy, thats a lot to unpack.

Its an argument that is used a lot in creative writing circles (or it was back before i got frustrated with the inherently hippocratic nature of "wokefulness" and departed from them), but it really doesnt hold up to scrutiny. It requires us to reduce our own culture, down to how we feel ourselves, to the decisions of maybe 2 dozen billion/trillionaires in hollywood. Specifically that race/gender plays a bigger part of what we enjoy than writing, *because that is what those hollywood execs do* and not for any reason related to enjoyment.

Honestly, I'm not a super hero fan, but i have the opinion that there was a significant difference on the quality of writing between the movies iron man and black panther. And even *their* worst points were better than the best parts of suicide squad (a masterpiece of diversity, *maybe*, but a disaster of plot, unlikeable characters, and extremely adamant sentamentality). I don't simply like iron man better because sherlock holmes has lighter skin than the panther guy or the daddy issues girl. It was marginally a better (if difficult to relate to) story. However, reducing anyone's opinion to that kind of binary "white men good brown women bad" doesnt reflect content created these days or enjoyed by the people. Its certainly going to be hard to convince me that most of arelith is that way.

You would even be hard pressed to convince me that the demographics of hollywood movie stars represent arelith. Or that the colors and genders of actors have any bearing on the colors and genders of characters in a creative person's mind.

[Ninjimmy]

I think the two kinda feed into one another, really? I think the two feed into one another certainly.

Grumpy, thats a lot to unpack.

Its an argument that is used a lot in creative writing circles (or it was back before i got frustrated with the inherently hippocratic nature of "wokefulness" and departed from them), but it really doesnt hold up to scrutiny. It requires us to reduce our own culture, down to how we feel ourselves, to the decisions of maybe 2 dozen billion/trillionaires in hollywood. Specifically that race/gender plays a bigger part of what we enjoy than writing, *because that is what those hollywood execs do* and not for any reason related to enjoyment.

Honestly, I'm not a super hero fan, but i have the opinion that there was a significant difference on the quality of writing between the movies iron man and black panther. And even *their* worst points were better than the best parts of suicide squad (a masterpiece of diversity, *maybe*, but a disaster of plot, unlikeable characters, and extremely adamant sentamentality). I don't simply like iron man better because sherlock holmes has lighter skin than the panther guy or the daddy issues girl. It was marginally a better (if difficult to relate to) story. However, reducing anyone's opinion to that kind of binary "white men good brown women bad" doesnt reflect content created these days or enjoyed by the people. Its certainly going to be hard to convince me that most of arelith is that way.

You would even be hard pressed to convince me that the demographics of hollywood movie stars represent arelith. Or that the colors and genders of actors have any bearing on the colors and genders of characters in a creative person's mind.

.. Real quick side-bar because I feel compelled to respond to this.

While I did really enjoy Iron Man, Black Panther is in my mind a better story because the antagonist is way better rounded and provides an important moral conflict.

I mean, ymmv, but that's why everyone I know who saw it loved it. That and Wakanda was outstandingly cool as a location, second best place for aesthetics after Sakaar being non-stop Jack Kirby. Like... I don't know what elements of the writing in Black Panther felt weak to you, the strength of it to my mind was that T'challa was, kinda, in the wrong and he realised it by the end as well as addressing a larger theme of cultures in isolation and not knowing your heritage.

I mean I love Jeff Bridges but you can't say Ironmonger was the more memorable of the two 'mongers.
If you discount RDJ's pure charisma, Black Panther narratively is pretty far ahead.

But then this is gonna lead right back into the Conflict thread in feedback and that's already massive but yeah - I think Black Panther's big character win and why it's so beloved isn't just wokeness, it's got a really cool villain too.

[The GrumpyCat]

Its an argument that is used a lot in creative writing circles (or it was back before i got frustrated with the inherently hippocratic nature of "wokefulness" and departed from them), but it really doesnt hold up to scrutiny. It requires us to reduce our own culture, down to how we feel ourselves, to the decisions of maybe 2 dozen billion/trillionaires in hollywood. Specifically that race/gender plays a bigger part of what we enjoy than writing, *because that is what those hollywood execs do* and not for any reason related to enjoyment.

Before there was the Lord of the Rings Films, there was the Lord of the Rings Books - which are primaraly about a bunch of white guys. These in turn are based of avareity of western mythologies -which again... mostly white guys. Which leads back the sterotypical protagonist of fantasy being... a white guy. (And perhaps from there, because people do like to read about protagonists they relate to, and so on - the idea that fantasy is mostly for white guys)

And as authers have looked into other stories and mythologies, and honed their stories, and thought about new ideas, and as these new ides have slowly fallen into wider scale media and as viewers have seen wider scale media... slowly it all builds up into people being willing and able to tell a vareity of other interesting tales.

And again this isn't about 'hollywood' that's just a step.

I could also point to the now famous Critical Roll, which features characters of a wide vareity of ethnicities, genders and sexualities. I don't know how much that has effectd Arelith, but it wouldn't suprise me if it did enourage people to try a wider vareity of characters in their own game. I hope it does.

Honestly, I'm not a super hero fan, but i have the opinion that there was a significant difference on the quality of writing between the movies iron man and black panther. And even *their* worst points were better than the best parts of suicide squad (a masterpiece of diversity, *maybe*, but a disaster of plot, unlikeable characters, and extremely adamant sentamentality). I don't simply like iron man better because sherlock holmes has lighter skin than the panther guy or the daddy issues girl. It was marginally a better (if difficult to relate to) story. However, reducing anyone's opinion to that kind of binary "white men good brown women bad" doesnt reflect content created these days or enjoyed by the people. Its certainly going to be hard to convince me that most of arelith is that way.

But it's not really about Hollywood?
It's about a larger cultural zeitgeist that Hollywood, in itself, echoes, and it's about occasionally questioning that in order to tell new and interesting stories.

I'm... not sure what you're arguing here? I havn't claimed that either film is better or worse than the other. Merely that Black Panther did extremely well in the box office because it reached a market that had not been tapped before.

You would even be hard pressed to convince me that the demographics of hollywood movie stars represent arelith. Or that the colors and genders of actors have any bearing on the colors and genders of characters in a creative person's mind.

Huh?

Well, generally (by no means always, but especialy in todays' world of adaptation) the story comes first and the actors come second. Black Panther could not be played by a white guy. Likewise Sherlock Holmes... I mean you could have him played by a black guy I guess, sure. His skin colour is hardly intrinsic to his nature. But it would still get a few raised eyebrows.

I think that if you look at the trend in modern media to include women ,people of colour, none hetronormative people ect and also look in the trend of soceity to be (I think) more accepting of such - you can see a link there.

And once more, once more I really need to stress personaly that I'm not saying 'playing/writing/drawing/imagining/whatever a Streight White Male Dude is a bad thing. Far from it. Quite a few of my characters have fallen very neatly into that demographic. Ultimatly this game is about FUN and you need to do what is FUN for you. This is a hobby after all. But trying new flavours and experimenting with new ideas... isn't a bad thing.

[Royal Blood]

To me this is an interesting thread I am in college for fine arts, so discussions like this are commonplace when you are trying to decide the creation of characters, stories or other art. In my opinion I think it's good to challenge cultural norms and look beyond those for growth. but I also think we're at a sort of dangerous place where it's the expectation that you break cultural norms even if it is at the expense of a story, character development or otherwise.

In many of the projects I've completed as groups there is often I guess what I would identify as a break from a social Norm. and what I think is interesting is that I feel like I need to be super defensive when I'm talking about this stuff in case I offend somebody. Like it's a sin or something to DARE suggest that we don't include a break in a social Norm. Like somehow that makes me part of the problem or something. it's like if you're not progressive all the time then you're not progressive at all. or at least the common definition of what progressive is. like, the things I make aren't here to send out like a social message necessarily that's not like a part of the work.

For me, I don't really care about this stuff. I appreciate that my perspective may be skewed by like the society I grew up in so like I'm super open to like seeing new things and exposing myself to a wide variety of media. And ideas. But at the same time I strongly dislike the idea that you have to include particular ideas or else be branded some sort of like anti-progressive or something. I think that's like ironically the exact thing societies trying to change and yet in like the process of changing it they've reverted to the same thing just with different ideas. like you have to conform to our idea of open-mindedness or else you will be branded as not open-minded. which is like no different than past culture that demanded conformity to social norms or being branded as an outcast.

so, I think all this boils down to the idea that like whatever you do you can't really win so that's why I don't try to conform to either side. I just do like whatever I think is cool, fun, and maybe communicates a particular idea that I'm trying to express. How I communicate that idea is for sure influenced by like how I grew up but like I also take the time to be like influenced by a wide variety of things.

Also, I want to clarify that I don't think on this server anyone's like targeted for not being one thing or another but this has been my experience in like real life and in college and I think it offered a parallel to the discussion here.

And I guess the main point of what I want to write is like whatever you choose it's not bad. And I wouldn't let the choices of others rub off on you as being bad either. Everyone is like just here to have fun and participate in stories. And well I think discussions are valuable about expanding what you're exposed to I also really think it's important to try to avoid making other people feel like they are lesser or wrong or bad or something because of the story archetypes they choose to rely on. Whether those are what we would consider common or diverse I think even applying a label to them defeats the purpose of claiming to be diversity.

[The GrumpyCat]

To me this is an interesting thread I am in college for fine arts, so discussions like this are commonplace when you are trying to decide the creation of characters, stories or other art. In my opinion I think it's good to challenge cultural norms and look beyond those for growth. but I also think we're at a sort of dangerous place where it's the expectation that you break cultural norms even if it is at the expense of a story, character development or otherwise.

In many of the projects I've completed as groups there is often I guess what I would identify as a break from a social Norm. and what I think is interesting is that I feel like I need to be super defensive when I'm talking about this stuff in case I offend somebody. Like it's a sin or something to DARE suggest that we don't include a break in a social Norm. Like somehow that makes me part of the problem or something. it's like if you're not progressive all the time then you're not progressive at all. or at least the common definition of what progressive is. like, the things I make aren't here to send out like a social message necessarily that's not like a part of the work.

For me, I don't really care about this stuff. I appreciate that my perspective may be skewed by like the society I grew up in so like I'm super open to like seeing new things and exposing myself to a wide variety of media. And ideas. But at the same time I strongly dislike the idea that you have to include particular ideas or else be branded some sort of like anti-progressive or something. I think that's like ironically the exact thing societies trying to change and yet in like the process of changing it they've reverted to the same thing just with different ideas. like you have to conform to our idea of open-mindedness or else you will be branded as not open-minded. which is like no different than past culture that demanded conformity to social norms or being branded as an outcast.

so, I think all this boils down to the idea that like whatever you do you can't really win so that's why I don't try to conform to either side. I just do like whatever I think is cool, fun, and maybe communicates a particular idea that I'm trying to express. How I communicate that idea is for sure influenced by like how I grew up but like I also take the time to be like influenced by a wide variety of things.

Also, I want to clarify that I don't think on this server anyone's like targeted for not being one thing or another but this has been my experience in like real life and in college and I think it offered a parallel to the discussion here.

And I guess the main point of what I want to write is like whatever you choose it's not bad. And I wouldn't let the choices of others rub off on you as being bad either. Everyone is like just here to have fun and participate in stories. And well I think discussions are valuable about expanding what you're exposed to I also really think it's important to try to avoid making other people feel like they are lesser or wrong or bad or something because of the story archetypes they choose to rely on. Whether those are what we would consider common or diverse I think even applying a label to them defeats the purpose of claiming to be diversity.

I 100% agree with all of this.

It's something people should be open to, but not forced to.

[Irongron]

You know, not to derail what has turned into a refreshingly academic debate, but with all this talk of NwN body shapes it's actually the Jessica Rabbit 'shimmy' walk on the females that gets me, and the fact that they cannot stand with their shoulders straight.

[Wethrinea]

1. I, personally, see a lot less of the "stunningly beautiful" descriptions of female PC's than I did fifteen years ago when I started playing NwN. But that could also be due to Areliths PG-13, and what kind of players I end up interacting with

2. Not really. Then again, I have never really taken issue with fantasy art in general as it is, well, fantasy.

3. I very rarely play female PC, so I can only speak for the male side. And here I have seen quite a bit of idealized description of strong/gruff-but-handsome/bodybuilder/scars-are-cool-not-ugly male PC's. But again, I do not take issue with it, since it is a game, and a fantasy one at that.

For my own part, I do not describe the physical attributes of my characters aside from very general terms, if at all. Mostly because they are usually adult-to-middle-aged dudes, whose interesting twerks are their personalities, beliefs and interactions with the world, not their appearance. Of course, if they sport a glorious beard or especially fancy pants, I'll make a point of that.

I am not very concerned about how characters are described by their players, as my interest in the game is mainly a) To get to know my own character and those they interact with, and 2) Bash monster skulls and dig up hot loot. The latter, preferably, in a group of fun characters.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

To me this is an interesting thread I am in college for fine arts, so discussions like this are commonplace when you are trying to decide the creation of characters, stories or other art. In my opinion I think it's good to challenge cultural norms and look beyond those for growth. but I also think we're at a sort of dangerous place where it's the expectation that you break cultural norms even if it is at the expense of a story, character development or otherwise.

In many of the projects I've completed as groups there is often I guess what I would identify as a break from a social Norm. and what I think is interesting is that I feel like I need to be super defensive when I'm talking about this stuff in case I offend somebody. Like it's a sin or something to DARE suggest that we don't include a break in a social Norm. Like somehow that makes me part of the problem or something. it's like if you're not progressive all the time then you're not progressive at all. or at least the common definition of what progressive is. like, the things I make aren't here to send out like a social message necessarily that's not like a part of the work.

For me, I don't really care about this stuff. I appreciate that my perspective may be skewed by like the society I grew up in so like I'm super open to like seeing new things and exposing myself to a wide variety of media. And ideas. But at the same time I strongly dislike the idea that you have to include particular ideas or else be branded some sort of like anti-progressive or something. I think that's like ironically the exact thing societies trying to change and yet in like the process of changing it they've reverted to the same thing just with different ideas. like you have to conform to our idea of open-mindedness or else you will be branded as not open-minded. which is like no different than past culture that demanded conformity to social norms or being branded as an outcast.

so, I think all this boils down to the idea that like whatever you do you can't really win so that's why I don't try to conform to either side. I just do like whatever I think is cool, fun, and maybe communicates a particular idea that I'm trying to express. How I communicate that idea is for sure influenced by like how I grew up but like I also take the time to be like influenced by a wide variety of things.

Also, I want to clarify that I don't think on this server anyone's like targeted for not being one thing or another but this has been my experience in like real life and in college and I think it offered a parallel to the discussion here.

And I guess the main point of what I want to write is like whatever you choose it's not bad. And I wouldn't let the choices of others rub off on you as being bad either. Everyone is like just here to have fun and participate in stories. And well I think discussions are valuable about expanding what you're exposed to I also really think it's important to try to avoid making other people feel like they are lesser or wrong or bad or something because of the story archetypes they choose to rely on. Whether those are what we would consider common or diverse I think even applying a label to them defeats the purpose of claiming to be diversity.

This is a really good post. I majored in fine arts too, they really want you to think a certain way and do a certain thing. And you do it, for the grades. The hard part about surviving art school is leaving with your own mind and opinions, because the whole time you're going to be selling yourself out for grades.

I really dislike seeing some of the strong language in this thread against sexy character profiles. Calling what another player writes "dehumanizing" is taking it really far, when at worst it's just tacky or someone fishing for people to fawn over them. Dehumanizing is a really strong word, and it takes away from a lot of the actual, serious dehumanization going on in the world. Dehumanizing is a key component to genocide, where a group justifies it because the victims are less than human. I don't like seeing strong words have their meaning diminished. You are not being dehumanized because some man with a lesbian fetish wrote about the giant tits his character has. Sure maybe it's objectifying, personally I think lesbian fetishism is really harmful and disrespectful to LGTB issues, but at the end of the day it is some nerd writing bad fanfic in their profile in a niche roleplaying game on the internet.

[andthenthatwasthat]

You know, not to derail what has turned into a refreshingly academic debate, but with all this talk of NwN body shapes it's actually the Jessica Rabbit 'shimmy' walk on the females that gets me, and the fact that they cannot stand with their shoulders straight.

Yep, that is exactly what I was talking about.

[Marsi]

I don't like "sexy" bios and I don't tend to expect much of characters with them.

But, as others have pointed out: gratuitous depictions of women and bad characterizations of their sexuality are everywhere in fantasy, reinforced at every step. NWN is particularly sexualized more than other contemporary CRPGs. You can't really blame non-introspective fantasy writers/players for doing as they've been conditioned to do.

I'm not the roleplay puritan I used to be, I can't expect every character I come across to be the production of a brilliant and sensitive mind. Writing and storytelling is important to me, so I allocate my mental and emotional resources accordingly. Sexy bio writers probably don't feel this way and are here for something more casual and as such their skills are perhaps spoken for in other fields of interest. By that same token, I partake in other hobbies -- secondary/tertiary interests -- of which the respective brahmins probably view me as low-brow and driven by inferior forces. I accept that, and try not to judge someone by something that is clearly not their strength.

(A very different story if the player in question claims they are a serious writer/roleplayer but the best they can come up with is BOOBA roleplay!)

I think the more important question to ask is how and who does Arelith reward? And I think we can say with confidence that it's been a while since the time that gratuitous, over-sexualized roleplay was acceptable enough to be rewarded with any consistency - with RPR, higher office or general social clout.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

You know, not to derail what has turned into a refreshingly academic debate, but with all this talk of NwN body shapes it's actually the Jessica Rabbit 'shimmy' walk on the females that gets me, and the fact that they cannot stand with their shoulders straight.

Yes ! ! ! !

They did this same thing with the models in KOTOR. KOTOR bodies arent as ridiculous though.

[Freyason]

I always liked that one book from 2E where they separated each ability out in 2 to give move options though, so I think it was separated into attractiveness and leadership (I’m sure someone will correct me; from Skills and Powers)

Been a while, but charisma and comeliness if I remember right?

[fading]

I really dislike seeing some of the strong language in this thread against sexy character profiles. Calling what another player writes "dehumanizing" is taking it really far, when at worst it's just tacky or someone fishing for people to fawn over them. Dehumanizing is a really strong word, and it takes away from a lot of the actual, serious dehumanization going on in the world. Dehumanizing is a key component to genocide, where a group justifies it because the victims are less than human. I don't like seeing strong words have their meaning diminished. You are not being dehumanized because some man with a lesbian fetish wrote about the giant tits his character has. Sure maybe it's objectifying, personally I think lesbian fetishism is really harmful and disrespectful to LGTB issues, but at the end of the day it is some nerd writing bad fanfic in their profile in a niche roleplaying game on the internet.

The concepts of dehumanization and objectification are strongly related, I don't know what you're talking about.. The continuous objectification of a group of people leads to their dehumanization by society as a whole. For instance, one of the most popular types of pornography in Brazil is that of trans women, at the same time, Brazil has a big issue regarding a variety of crimes targeting trans women. Not really some grand revelation to point out that objectification deprives people of their humanity, I'd say.. Plenty of psychologists have talked in length about this, so I don't know why we should mince words here?

[Ninjimmy]

This thread is a goshdarn rollercoaster of tone and approach to the topic, this has genuinely had more plot-twists than an M Night Shyamalan movie.