Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

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ADDK
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by ADDK » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:09 pm

This is a really fantastic thread, and I'm both astounded and so proud of this community for handling it in such a respectful manner. As someone deeply interested in social issues like the ones presented in this thread, it makes me feel safe in the idea that I can express concerns or make observations without immediately have knee-jerk defensive reactions to what I might say.

More on topic, when I first started playing on NWN a few years back I was taken aback by all the, well, horny descriptions and character outfits that I would see on various servers, but as a veteran of online gaming I quickly got used to it. My personal policy is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at least once, and do my best to not judge a book by its cover. I appreciate the desire for romance as (as one user pointed out) wish fulfillment is a big part of fantasy and as roleplayers in a fantasy universe, it's perfectly acceptable to want to explore something one might not get to experience IRL.

That brings me to my main point however, and it's on the topic of objectification: As a lesbian woman, I find it immensely difficult to roleplay my own sexuality to the same extent and fulfillment as others who roleplay their own sexuality (i.e, straight), either here or elsewhere, due to the fact that lesbianism is fetishized to such an extent in online communities in general. While it has gotten better over the years, I still find myself hesitant to express myself mostly due to either other player reactions to my characters' sexuality, or the objectification of my characters' by other characters. It's worn me down. I'm exhausted by even the idea of romance, because I know that - in my experience - despite my best efforts to be "respectable", or to not take up space, or to be subtle, I will inevitably have a comment levied towards either myself or my character that objectifies either of us and destroys the fantasy or illusion that I'm trying to enjoy.

This is no one person's fault, especially not here on Arelith (as due to my previous experiences I've never engaged in romance subplots with any of my characters here), but a trend that I've noticed over the years. I'm not sure of this post will reach the eyes of the people who need to read it, but since we're on the topic of respect, the only thing I ask of the community is to give other roleplayers the benefit of the doubt, and understand that not everything you see is necessarily the truth of the situation. Sometimes we're not roleplaying to get our kicks off, sometimes we're roleplaying this way because that's who we are.

(Apologies if this comes off scatterbrained. I'm not very good at collecting my thoughts, and this is a topic that matters a great deal to me.)

-
Irongron wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:45 pm
You know, not to derail what has turned into a refreshingly academic debate, but with all this talk of NwN body shapes it's actually the Jessica Rabbit 'shimmy' walk on the females that gets me, and the fact that they cannot stand with their shoulders straight.
This reminds me of a server I played on about a year and a half ago. It had different animation options for weapon styles, and one of them (probably unintentionally) changed the female walk-cycle into the male's. As someone who tends to dress my characters fairly gender-neutral and always HATED the sashay that the female characters have in NWN, it was a breath of fresh air. My fighter, in her heavy armor and thick tabard, felt appropriately weight down by her equipment, and with the sturdy gait of a soldier and frontline warrior to match. It was delightful.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Irongron » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:34 pm

I would love to improve the body types and animations, especially on female characters who seem eternally stuck on a catwalk walkmesh, but unfortunately this a really difficult area of development and we currently do not have the staff to be able to do this. Custom animations used elsewhere are badly outdated, and will not work with more recent models.


As another aside y'all are really making me second guess the Burlesque show I added to the new city's theatre...

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:50 pm

ADDK wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:09 pm
That brings me to my main point however, and it's on the topic of objectification: As a lesbian woman, I find it immensely difficult to roleplay my own sexuality to the same extent and fulfillment as others who roleplay their own sexuality (i.e, straight), either here or elsewhere, due to the fact that lesbianism is fetishized to such an extent in online communities in general. While it has gotten better over the years, I still find myself hesitant to express myself mostly due to either other player reactions to my characters' sexuality, or the objectification of my characters' by other characters. It's worn me down. I'm exhausted by even the idea of romance, because I know that - in my experience - despite my best efforts to be "respectable", or to not take up space, or to be subtle, I will inevitably have a comment levied towards either myself or my character that objectifies either of us and destroys the fantasy or illusion that I'm trying to enjoy.
This is something I've been very vocal about for years, I've seen it everywhere and I've heard these very words from other real-life lesbians. That men fetishizing their sexuality makes it really, really hard to exist in RP servers. Which is why I also hate seeing IRL straight men playing romance lesbians act like that makes them woke to LGTB issues and makes them a LGTB ally, and throw rainbow language around. When it actually is contributing to a sizable problem actual lesbians face. I felt embarrassed at making a homosexual character on this server once I realized how much of a meme it is here, because I felt like I was now contributing to the problem.

There are some very bad offenders on Arelith. A friend of mine had a female character that was pursued by a player who kept making new lesbian characters to try and be in a relationship with her, regardless that my friend's character was straight. And when the person pursuing them finally got the hint that it wasn't going to happen, they began a really large smear campaign against my friend. It was insane. She was so uncomfortable by the whole thing, she didn't report it. And I regret not reporting it for her.

Which is another issue. People who encounter sexual harassment in game worlds worry that people won't take it seriously. That it'll just be dismissed, that it's not serious enough, that the team will tell her no rules are being broken. So people quietly hope it will just go away.

This is reminding me, a while ago another friend playing a female character was harassed by a male character during a DM event, and the DM wasn't doing anything about it. She kept trying to say no to his advances and he kept being really uncomfortable to her. This was a while ago and I can't remember all the details 100%, but I'm pretty sure she threatened to kill him, and got met with the "whoa calm down crazy lady" reaction. Which also sucks. Everyone is always aghast at bullying stories in public schools, where the moment the victim stands up for themself, they get in trouble for it. This is very similar, where victims of harassment are told they're crazy for threatening to kill another character, if absolutely nothing else is making that character leave them alone. In this game, that's the only actual action we can do to make a player go away, paired with -notells.

When I made Corinne I made the character expecting to be harassed, and was prepared to report people for it. I usually play male characters because I want to avoid creepy behaviour, Corinne is very outside of my norm. She wears pink even! I'm actually surprised she hasn't been harassed yet, I can only imagine it's because she doesn't have a coy, meek personality.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:11 pm

ADDK wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:09 pm
This is a really fantastic thread, and I'm both astounded and so proud of this community for handling it in such a respectful manner. As someone deeply interested in social issues like the ones presented in this thread, it makes me feel safe in the idea that I can express concerns or make observations without immediately have knee-jerk defensive reactions to what I might say.

More on topic, when I first started playing on NWN a few years back I was taken aback by all the, well, horny descriptions and character outfits that I would see on various servers, but as a veteran of online gaming I quickly got used to it. My personal policy is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at least once, and do my best to not judge a book by its cover. I appreciate the desire for romance as (as one user pointed out) wish fulfillment is a big part of fantasy and as roleplayers in a fantasy universe, it's perfectly acceptable to want to explore something one might not get to experience IRL.

That brings me to my main point however, and it's on the topic of objectification: As a lesbian woman, I find it immensely difficult to roleplay my own sexuality to the same extent and fulfillment as others who roleplay their own sexuality (i.e, straight), either here or elsewhere, due to the fact that lesbianism is fetishized to such an extent in online communities in general. While it has gotten better over the years, I still find myself hesitant to express myself mostly due to either other player reactions to my characters' sexuality, or the objectification of my characters' by other characters. It's worn me down. I'm exhausted by even the idea of romance, because I know that - in my experience - despite my best efforts to be "respectable", or to not take up space, or to be subtle, I will inevitably have a comment levied towards either myself or my character that objectifies either of us and destroys the fantasy or illusion that I'm trying to enjoy.

This is no one person's fault, especially not here on Arelith (as due to my previous experiences I've never engaged in romance subplots with any of my characters here), but a trend that I've noticed over the years. I'm not sure of this post will reach the eyes of the people who need to read it, but since we're on the topic of respect, the only thing I ask of the community is to give other roleplayers the benefit of the doubt, and understand that not everything you see is necessarily the truth of the situation. Sometimes we're not roleplaying to get our kicks off, sometimes we're roleplaying this way because that's who we are.

(Apologies if this comes off scatterbrained. I'm not very good at collecting my thoughts, and this is a topic that matters a great deal to me.)

-
Irongron wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:45 pm
You know, not to derail what has turned into a refreshingly academic debate, but with all this talk of NwN body shapes it's actually the Jessica Rabbit 'shimmy' walk on the females that gets me, and the fact that they cannot stand with their shoulders straight.
This reminds me of a server I played on about a year and a half ago. It had different animation options for weapon styles, and one of them (probably unintentionally) changed the female walk-cycle into the male's. As someone who tends to dress my characters fairly gender-neutral and always HATED the sashay that the female characters have in NWN, it was a breath of fresh air. My fighter, in her heavy armor and thick tabard, felt appropriately weight down by her equipment, and with the sturdy gait of a soldier and frontline warrior to match. It was delightful.
This was really great to read, and I am relieved you feel comfortable to share it. Thank you so much.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Ninjimmy » Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:42 pm

Irongron wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:34 pm

As another aside y'all are really making me second guess the Burlesque show I added to the new city's theatre...
Can we petition for a Beholder dancer?
For us real gentlemen of culture.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Skibbles » Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:05 pm

It's there but I don't think it's any more an Arelith culture problem than a simple part of the human condition.

It's not like these elements are absent in almost virtually any other part of life whether cinema, novels, advertisements, history, and even in the deeper parts of daily living whether we like it or not.

However I don't think it's overwhelmingly slanted towards female PCs either. There's more than enough rippling muscles and six foot tall males to go around just as well. It's a fantasy game, and there's fantasy people. Maybe it's different on the surface though, and I haven't spent enough playtime up there to see trends of this nature.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm

Yeah, thanks ADDK for that post. It's really facinating and something that has made me think too.
I felt embarrassed at making a homosexual character on this server once I realized how much of a meme it is here, because I felt like I was now contributing to the problem.
I worry about this too, and I think it brings up a really intresting question...

On the one hand I think it's very good to have a vareity of characters of all races/sexualities/so on, firstly because it creates a larger vareity of interesting stories and themes. But also because yes, soppy SJW I am, I like to think it encourages a larger acceptence in society.

On the other there is a risk of... let us say... presenting these types poorly? Fetishising, sterotyping, or just being disrespectful.

I can't really speak much from an LGBT perspective, or a ethnicity one, but from a gender perspective it does make me wince when some men play women as little more than giggling, sexualized airheads.

Then again I remember that there's also a lot of female characters (I daresay nowadays the majority), played by men, who are played really really well.

We talked about this on another thread as I recall, and my own personal opinion hasn't changed. That ultimatly it's... just what it is. That we can't... or rather we shouldn't 'ban' people from playing such concepts, because even if they're done badly at least they're being done - and that is nice. And also because it'd be difficult to enforce and, lets face it, an entire server made out of nothing but streight white male guys would be really dull.

I suppose all we can do is ask players to be mindful when doing such things, to do their best, and to try and be tolerent and gentle when we see it being done badly. I think.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:47 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm
... we shouldn't 'ban' people from playing such concepts ...
Yes, even if you could, please don't "ban" people for these kinds of things. That could only be counterproductive and would not allow our player base to reflect on these kinds of issues.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Eira » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:08 pm

andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:47 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm
... we shouldn't 'ban' people from playing such concepts ...
Yes, even if you could, please don't "ban" people for these kinds of things. That could only be counterproductive and would not allow our player base to reflect on these kinds of issues.
I really do hope the playerbase will reflect on it, as I have heard multiple people within the queer community express similar things of being uncomfortable to play a character with their own ACTUAL sexuality or expression due to how much fetishizing or outright cringeworthy portrayal there has been.

And idk, to me, that's kinda sad.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:23 pm

andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:47 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm
... we shouldn't 'ban' people from playing such concepts ...
Yes, even if you could, please don't "ban" people for these kinds of things. That could only be counterproductive and would not allow our player base to reflect on these kinds of issues.
Don't worry, I 100% agree with you and would vehement oppose banning such, for exactly the reason you've stated. That said, as Eira says - if you are playing such a concept - and I get we're ultimatly all here for fun and frollics ect - it does no hard to reflect upon it just a bit before hand.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:24 pm

I think that sex, gender and sexual preference aren't really that important for writing a great character.

I'd argue that we could take pretty much any* of the most interesting characters from Arelith's history and retroactively gender swap them and/or change their sexual preferences and an overwhelming majority of them would still have worked the same!
It's because those aspects of these characters were not what defined them and what made them exceptional.

Is it fun to play with these concepts? Very much so!
Can it lead to a certain degree of corny writer's insert? Yep!
Can players fail while trying out some concepts? Happens all the time!
Do I see this as an actual problem? I might have, had we been trying to create some amazing piece of literature here. However, we're not - this is a computer game and most of us play it simply to have fun.

*okay, there's this one exception regarding drow characters, but only because of the cultural lore defining the social stratification of this particular fictional society.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by DeSanti » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:22 am

I'll preface by saying that I've RP'd on NWN1, 2 and other games for more than 15 years, which gives me absolutely no more authority on these problems raised than anyone else here - but it has allowed me to get to know people of all strokes of life behind their characters. And I realize that means the following observations are entirely anecdotical, but still some observations I made that has surprised me:

When it comes to 'sexy women characters in sexy clothing' I've met more than enough (I'd roughly say 50/50) genuinely lovely and great people of who were women and did in fact like to make characters that were described and played as 'drop dead beautiful and clothed thereof'. Does this cancel any of the arguments of it being tedious, overdone or possibly problematic? No, probably not - but I think it makes for an argument but that a lot of people (myself included) will seek to make a character that highlights what I guess you can call 'flawlessness' - be in beauty, muscularity, personality and so on. Making a character that's beautiful is easy, because it just needs to be written in the description and presto you've established that as a fact.

Grumpycat pointed out how this relates to beauty standards and societal norms on gender in real life and I couldn't fault that at all, but to me (and which others have pointed out) that then becomes a bit of a bigger issue than should be expected or even possible to be handled here on this server.

The problem, I think, is more when it comes to the fact that one isn't given an option either way. When all armour are for instance chain-mail bikinis or all portraits are high fashion beauty queens or body types allow for nothing short of slim, hourglass-shaped form. Then I wholeheartedly agree that it is a problem because it makes it difficult to in a more involved way be something else, should one want that.

Jumping back to this notion that players' often want to create 'flawlessness' - I think of course that most realize that trying to play an absolutely flawless person is impossible or at the very least boring. Unless you're like me who tries to play an outrageously boring, emotionally stunted and cliché golden boi who ironically is flawed due to him trying to conform to ideals of a perfect paladinacious knight. But I, and I'm treading on thin ice here, think many people feel it easier to accentuate flaws in their personality rather physical look.

Probably talked a lot without saying much here, but to try to summarize: I don't think this is an Arelith-specific culture and I don't think women characters are necessarily described more "physically beautiful" than the male characters but I think there's absolutely less options for them, game-wise to be anything but. To me it's a mixture of people wanting to represent the 'best' in their character which isn't necessarily anything bad but also probably/quite likely influenced by a societal pressure and ideal of beauty concepts.


Also someone brought up the issue of 'faux-lesbians' on the server. That, to me, has been a thing for as long as I've been roleplaying and I'm not sure if there's too much one can do about it (though banning ERPing, thank heavens, can mitigate) and I agree it can be pretty damn tedious and probably highly problematic in certain contexts. 15 year old hormonal me was guilty of this I'm pretty sure as well -- but I can't really see any sensible way for the DMs to possibly handle it. They could try banning elves, but that's not fair to many. But from my observation Arelith doesn't seem to have that much of a 'problem' with that, all in all.
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:36 pm

DeSanti wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:22 am
The problem, I think, is more when it comes to the fact that one isn't given an option either way. When all armour are for instance chain-mail bikinis or all portraits are high fashion beauty queens or body types allow for nothing short of slim, hourglass-shaped form. Then I wholeheartedly agree that it is a problem because it makes it difficult to in a more involved way be something else, should one want that.
I really like the new hak clothing options added for this reason, there's a lot of great clothing options for female characters now without boob windows.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Lexx » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:22 pm

1. No I haven't

2. I could see these being problems with some people here and there but not endemic issues.

3. Having played female characters on and off over the years I can honestly say no. At least not in my experience.


As someone else said. The vast majority. Or at least 3/4 of people put "WIP/work in progress" or "..." and nothing else ever for their character descriptions. For many the character description is a non-thing for them that play here.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Hazard » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:48 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:13 pm
Actually, echoing that again, it is a bit weird that the 8 str wizard who's in his 90's looks like this

Image

"I'm old and decrepit, honest"
Effects of Bull's Strength.

Speaking of.. When can we use the eldery man and woman models for PCs?

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Aelipse1 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am

And interesting topic, for sure.

The first thing that came to my mind when reading the responses is: CHARISMA DOES NOT EQUAL BEAUTY!

I don't know why so many people seem to think that charismatic characters are automatically beautiful. Charisma is the ability to speak in such a way that others are always interested to hear what you have to say. It is the ability to convince / persuade / sway. It is a trait that dictates how pleasant other people find your company. To give a solid example from my own perspective: Jacinda Ardern (the prime minister of New Zealand) is incredibly charismatic, and at no point do I find her physically attractive. And then there are women that I find very attractive, and they are nowhere near as charismatic as Jacinda.

Now, to the topic at hand:

I do not encounter the "look how gorgeous I am" character descriptions, as I like to call them, all that often, but occasionally I do, and I have to admit they are a bit off-putting. They stand out - especially if said character has no noble heritage, no highborn quality of life that would allow them to take proper care of their physical appearance, and instead they live in the Underdark and spend their time swinging an axe at bugbears. It is the same kind of thing as when players emote their character to be *incredibly strong*, *lightning fast* or act sassy and tough even when they're lying on the ground with a blade in their belly.

Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world where anyone can be anything, and I do my best to respect that. I am guilty of some "overqualifying" of my characters too, although I do try to be wary of it. Still, I tend to take characters that are described as superhuman (superelvish / superhinnish / ...) with a huge grain of salt, and usually try not to react to the overly suggestive descriptions. You won't hear my characters say "wow, you are so beautiful!" just because you wrote that down in the character sheet.



The issue of beauty and its importance is an intriguing one. Although I don't mind playing male characters that are old, scarred and ugly, I still prefer characters that look good in some respect. When it comes to female characters however, I have to admit that I could not make myself play a character that is old or ugly. It is hard to explain why as I don't understand this tendency myself, but I could never make myself care for an old crooked lady character, to give an example. I think it might have to do with empathy and the fact that I as a player have to spend a lot of time playing the character in order to "bond" with her, and I find that harder for characters that are not at least pretty to some degree.

With male characters, there is something of interest about old grumpy chaps, who have scars all over their faces, drink a lot, use foul language and constantly complain about something, while still showing some agility and a lot of experience in combat. For female characters this image just doesn't work for me. Maybe I am influenced by the film industry (I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character), maybe it's the fact that I haven't tried playing such characters enough.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by DeSanti » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:06 pm

Aelipse1 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am
(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character)
Image
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Ninjimmy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:59 pm

DeSanti wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:06 pm
Aelipse1 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am
(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character)
*image of the baddest b**** in Westeros*
Image

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:46 pm

(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character), maybe it's the fact that I haven't tried playing such characters enough.
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!!!!!
*Judi Dench's M from James Bond
* Wyn from Dragon Age Origins
* Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg from Terry Pratchett's The Witches

That being said your comment is really telling. I could come up with twenty odd 'older' men male characters off the top of my head I'm sure. Older women who actually do stuff is a lot harder. Alas in the fantasy genre, the lifespan of the typical male is
*Young man
*HERO
*Retired Hero
*maybe Tradgedy?
*Back to Heroeing again!
*Teaching the Young ones!
*Die tradgically.

A woman is
*Young woman
*Hero! (romance?)
*Motherhood
*Die Tradgically

Seriously, the MOST lethal thing for a woman in the fantasy/holywood genre is a tossup between finishing a romantic arc and/or Motherhood.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Dr. B » Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:04 pm

An alluring yet ruthless personage, Gwynyvere makes for a grand and contradictory sight, a specimen of biological fitness. Perched above the neck is the beautiful symmetry of a young and effeminate face, an expression both measured and controlled with just a smidge of contempt etched into the contours of her soft yet chiseled lips. Striking red hair sits neatly coiffed above a lightly freckled forehead and two large, green eyes. In contrast, from the neck down are heavy, typically bloodstained layers of plate armor that look to be fit for some lordly or noble type, though no banner or house insignia are present.

While not wearing her armor, she displays a refined sense of fashion, donning styles and colors at once both subtle and attention grabbing, and generally availing themselves of her statuesque physique.

It is safe to say that Gwynyvere can be a bit much. Bubbly, domineering, and often pushy, some might find her annoying, though others may find her rather delightful. However, the socially insightful might sense, beneath the veneer of vacuous effervescence, a deep and abiding malice.
I can't speak for all depictions of feminine attractiveness, but this is the description for an infernalist Bard/BG I played a few years back. I loved every second I played as that character and wouldn't change anything about her. The character described is clearly charismatic, and her appearance is partly the source of this. We also get hints that she is narcissistic and cruel. This is a villainous trope that was very fun to play for me, and I know based on testimony for others to interact with. I also received lots of compliments on the bio.

No one is expected to find the character "beautiful," of course. This just describes how the character looks from a conventional standard, and I think most people understand that.
Last edited by Dr. B on Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ninjimmy
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Ninjimmy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:43 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:46 pm

Seriously, the MOST lethal thing for a woman in the fantasy/holywood genre is a tossup between finishing a romantic arc and/or Motherhood.
TBF, the most lethal thing for a man is being found by the kids you abandoned.
Playing:
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)

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Kuma
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Kuma » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:09 pm

Aelipse1 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am
(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character),
Helen Mirren RED
Jessica Walter as Malory Archer and whoever she is in Arrested Development
the deadpan lady that does comms from Disney's Atlantis
Mom from Futurama
Judi Dench as M in James Bond
Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey
Lady Olenna from the throne games
Dax from DS9, sort of
Kreia from Kotor 2

i could go on

old women who are absolutely done with giving a fug and telling it like it is while doing their own thing is sort of a passion of mine and i am extremely here for it

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Flower Power
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Flower Power » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:23 pm

Kuma wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:09 pm
Aelipse1 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am
(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character),
Helen Mirren RED
Jessica Walter as Malory Archer and whoever she is in Arrested Development
the deadpan lady that does comms from Disney's Atlantis
Mom from Futurama
Judi Dench as M in James Bond
Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey
Lady Olenna from the throne games
Dax from DS9, sort of
Kreia from Kotor 2

i could go on

old women who are absolutely done with giving a fug and telling it like it is while doing their own thing is sort of a passion of mine and i am extremely here for it
Chrisjen Avasarala, The Expanse.
what would fred rogers do?

Drogo Gyslain
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:42 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Kuma wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:09 pm
Aelipse1 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:37 am
(I literally cannot think of a cool old woman character),
Helen Mirren RED
Jessica Walter as Malory Archer and whoever she is in Arrested Development
the deadpan lady that does comms from Disney's Atlantis
Mom from Futurama
Judi Dench as M in James Bond
Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey
Lady Olenna from the throne games
Dax from DS9, sort of
Kreia from Kotor 2

i could go on

old women who are absolutely done with giving a fug and telling it like it is while doing their own thing is sort of a passion of mine and i am extremely here for it
Chrisjen Avasarala, The Expanse.
Professor McGonagall and Professor Trelawney from Harry potter
Captain Janeway from Star Trek Voyager
Sarah Connor from Terminator (the recent sequel)
Dr Halsey from Halo
Dr Grace from Avatar
Katara and Toph from Avatar: The legend of korra (and really the whole beifong family)
Moana's Grandmother from Moana

and Kreia / Darth Treya is worth mentioning again because of just how impactful she is.

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Techne
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Re: Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

Post by Techne » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:13 pm

I want to contribute, yet with the preface that I am not an expert on any of these topics.

I'll start by answering some of the OP's questions.

1) Yes, I've seen such and experienced such, but I think both male and female characters are guilty of this. That, and I think the biggest offender is the overuse of the word 'lithe'.

2) Are they actual problems? Maybe, maybe not. I don't particularly care if you're pretty or ugly in your description. A hefty amount of people have said that they don't even read descriptions that I've talked to. So altering female descriptions isn't going to stop them from being hit on if no one reads the description in the first place.

3) Yes, I do think people feel pressured to make beautiful female characters. Western culture places lots of value on physical beauty. Though as I stated earlier, and others have stated: I don't think only females are subjected to this. Cultural stereotypes of men are that they have to have to be physically fit and objectively handsome.

Now to get to the meat of the matter I want to talk about:

THE MEAT, specifically about lesbian characters:
Some time ago I believe there was a small thread (linked here:viewtopic.php?f=18&t=27351&p=216246&hil ... rs#p216246) regarding the presence of LGBT characters and what issues that arose with them. The topic has been locked, so take its contents for what it is. Specifically it is about lesbian characters, which I feel is where a lot of the current LGBT issues regarding this topic spring up, especially since this thread here is mostly focused on the perspective of beautiful female descriptions.

The thread I refer to specifically spoke about the abundance of lesbian characters being present on Arelith. I bring all this up because it was noted by others that lesbian women are sexualized, it is a very common fetish amongst adults, especially males. Particularly those who are LGBT or lesbian themselves. Perhaps there is a correlation between attractive females and this lesbian fetishism? Perhaps there is no link at all. But I think it is worth understanding that there may be a link somewhere that may attribute to why one may see attractive female characters.

I bring this up as I personally play a lesbian character. This is her small portion of her description:
When eyes would fall upon this young half-elven woman, it would be noticed how effortlessly beautiful she was.
Her dark raven-coloured hair was bound in a loose ponytail by a golden band, errant strands of her silky hair frame her slightly pointed ears, a telling sign of her mixed heritage. Thick brows would crown a pair of heterochromic eyes: one a warm hazel and the other a brilliant green, gleaming from behind a pair of round glasses rimmed with gold wire.
I do never say that one must be attracted to her. Perhaps an issue arises in that people (in general) are thinking that beauty means attraction? Perhaps no one is saying such, and I am simply alone in thinking people have trouble making that distinction. I find most of my issues with character descriptions, male or female, are when they tell you you are irrevocably attracted to them, rather than the character being 'beautiful'. An objective observation of beauty should not automatically mean an objective feeling of attraction in my mind.

Nevertheless, to wrap up my thoughts. I agree with Eira that one needs to reflect upon reasons why that people are uncomfortable RPing as their own sexuality especially in the queer community. To quote their words:
From Eira:
I really do hope the playerbase will reflect on it, as I have heard multiple people within the queer community express similar things of being uncomfortable to play a character with their own ACTUAL sexuality or expression due to how much fetishizing or outright cringeworthy portrayal there has been.
And I also agree with GrumpyCat from the linked thread about their general stance on the topic of lesbians (And LGBT people in genera)l:
From GrumpyCat:
It does enter an interesting question though - Should RP of GBLT(ect) be limited or curtailed out of respect for that group of people?

I think on the whole the answer is no. And I know that's an odd tact to take - I mean I agree that there's a fair few situations where I've been concerned such rp is done for titilation, or just generally rped poorly* That said I also know many characters who's sexuality is very much second fiddle to all the other awsome stuff they do. Or where it isn't, but it's woven into the plot with such interest and intencity that I am drawn in all the more by it.

And I don't think it's generally wise to shove this stuff under the table for fear of 'offending' anyone. Because part of acceptence is just getting stuff out there. Yeah, sure, the snuggle giggling lesbians in a corner is a bit trite, but if it gets people used to the idea that such a thing is, ultimatly, pretty fine and normal - then this is only a net good in the long term?

Perhaps the takeaway is not to go 'Ugh. Lesbians... we should cull them.'

But rather to encourage people to brauden and improve their rp. (And also to not just dismiss someone because they are playing a lesbian. There's many characters out there who I've met who are lesbians but, like with anything else, that is only a tiny part of their rp. And much of their rp around that is fantastic.) To say to someone 'Sure your characters a lesbian. Ok. But that's dull. That means nothing. What -else- is there to them?'
As I stated at the beginning of my post, please do not take me as an expert on the matter. I just wanted to voice my thoughts on the matter.

EDIT: Please read GrumpyCat's full post in the linked thread. They make excellent points (in my mind). And my individual choice quotes do not do justice.

Also! I don't mean to invalidate how LGBT people feel regarding how their sexualities are portrayed. How you feel is how you feel, and that is important. I just think people need to make characters first, and worry about sexuality second.
Previous Characters - Dawn Streetglow/Akhan - Saeth Alsevir - Elena Springscar - Braith - Gwen Beregnor-Springscar - Jys'nara
Current Character(s) - No one (someone coming soon, hopefully!)

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