The Rules of Engagement

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a shrouded figure
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The Rules of Engagement

Post by a shrouded figure » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:01 am

Just curious, if I call out an underdarker on the surface- and they ignore me, multiple times, going about their business as if I hadn’t said “Hey what’re you doing here, you don’t belong” am I allowed to attack? I didn’t, because I always felt like the other person deserves to roleplay back- but I’m just curious if after multiple comments if I /would/ have been fair to attack. How do people react when the other player ignores initiation?

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:10 am

The short answer is 'Yes.'

The long answer is - you are to /offer/ someone fair chance at rp (in a langauge they understand) before engaging them at PvP. Idealy the rp should have something to do with the pvp that is about to occur. But if people ignore the rp you offer them then that's on them.

Which isn't to say it's fine to walk up to someone go 'Hello' then a milli second later attack. Time and opportunity should be given for rp.
And even so- it's always good to look for other opportunities for rp, besides pvp. Killing a underdarker on the surface is entirely legitimate - but one could consider other (still hostile/distrustworthy) options.

At any rate, tl'dr = Yes, if someone ignors the rp you present them, you are free to attack anyway.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

KeldonDonovans
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by KeldonDonovans » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:31 am

You should also consider your character. Is your character the kind of guy who would say "Hey, you don't belong!", and then, when not responded to, would resort to MURDERING SOMEONE TO DEATH? Because that sounds like a bit of a leap. I know if I were the UD character, I would not expect "You don't belong" to be the precursor to attack, unless I'm like, climbing a wall with weapons drawn and your dude is the guardsmen, leveling a bow at me while he says that.

andthenthatwasthat
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:12 am

I don't want to contradict a DM, but I'd rather err on the side of caution, not attack/PvP, and simply report the interaction to DMs.

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Dr. B
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Dr. B » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:08 am

Could do both. :)

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:25 am

FWIW, I actually do think in some contexts, murder is an appropriate IC response.

If I see, e.g., a drow/outcast human/orog on the surface, break the disguise, recognize it as a drow, etc., then it's a fully-IC thing to suspect that they're up to something dangerous/nefarious/evil. If I hail it, identify it for what it is, and inquire what it's doing, and the response is to just keep walking, it's entirely reasonable in character to assume the worst and to kill it before it can harm real people; it's not even trying to strike up a dialog and say "Hey chill, I'm here to get from A to B peacefully".

On an OOC level, you also have to play things a little by ear. Sometimes, people will legitimately be slow and afk, and here it makes sense to give them plenty of time to respond.

Other times, however, people will be gaming the engagement system. At one point, we even had players advising, on the forums, that to avoid PvP, all you needed to do was walk off without replying, because the engagement rule would never be satisfied if you didn't emote back. We've also had people feign AFK to give time for help to show up, feign typing delay while they search for portal lenses, etc. In situations where someone is deliberately avoiding an attempt to engage in RP, and not working with anything you give them, then by all means, cycle 'em through the respawner (and yes, also report them afterwards).


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Ork
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Ork » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:31 am

Report your interaction, obviously. Don't think you have to be the adjucator of justice in the situation, but yeah it's pretty shitty on their part. I've had this happen to me, and thankfully the individual was part of a community I could engage in - and we made some better roleplay out of it. Harder when it's a community you have limited to no access to. Remember, you can always make roleplay happen even if the instigator wants no part in it - write a description of the drop and post notices. Try to investigate who they were and see able sending spies into the underdark to learn more of their connections. Even if they want no part, you can generate roleplay for those that do.

If you're anything like me, seeing someone flat out ignore you can be pretty demoralizing. Whenever situations like this occur, I immediately seek out avenues of RP that pay back. It helps the recovery time from shitty players.

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Nitro » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:28 am

KeldonDonovans wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:31 am
I know if I were the UD character, I would not expect "You don't belong" to be the precursor to attack, unless I'm like, climbing a wall with weapons drawn and your dude is the guardsmen, leveling a bow at me while he says that.
Well, you should. Because that is the appropriate response to literal monsters, either fleeing or killing them unless you're the kind of shady individual to deal with them.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:38 am

Other times, however, people will be gaming the engagement system. At one point, we even had players advising, on the forums, that to avoid PvP, all you needed to do was walk off without replying, because the engagement rule would never be satisfied if you didn't emote back. We've also had people feign AFK to give time for help to show up, feign typing delay while they search for portal lenses, etc. In situations where someone is deliberately avoiding an attempt to engage in RP, and not working with anything you give them, then by all means, cycle 'em through the respawner (and yes, also report them afterwards).
This is why that judgement exists. If you genuinly think the player is ignoring your rp purely to avoid PvP, then you CAN (if you want) attack anyway.

Note 'Can' does not equel 'Should.'
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Flower Power
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Flower Power » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:39 am

Now, the real question is: what if they're portal lens'ing away every time they see you and then sitting in Stealth mode/logging off to block getting Speedies, to prevent you from delivering notice of exile/repossession of property?

It happens, uhh, a lot more often than you'd think.
what would fred rogers do?

Nitro
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Nitro » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:40 am

Report them.

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Flower Power
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Flower Power » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:49 am

Yes. But if I'm allowed to gank someone for gaming the system to try to avoid consequences, what of everything else?
what would fred rogers do?

Cybren
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Cybren » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:31 pm

Is informing via speedy even sufficient for the required RP before issuing an exile or revoking a shop?

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Skarain
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Skarain » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:38 pm

Cybren wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:31 pm
Is informing via speedy even sufficient for the required RP before issuing an exile or revoking a shop?
It is not. It must be done in person. Speedy can be used to "required to come to a hearing, otherwise shop evicted". Give warnings. Set up a sign in front of shop, saying same.

But the eviction/exile must happen in RP, in character, in person.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:38 pm

Skarain wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:38 pm
Cybren wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:31 pm
Is informing via speedy even sufficient for the required RP before issuing an exile or revoking a shop?
It is not. It must be done in person. Speedy can be used to "required to come to a hearing, otherwise shop evicted". Give warnings. Set up a sign in front of shop, saying same.

But the eviction/exile must happen in RP, in character, in person.
Could not have put it better myself!

And as others have said, if you think someone is exploiting to avoid rp of exile and such - (and you make due effort through various manners to do roleplay) please contact us and, if we think it's reasonable, we may give you the go ahead to release anyway.
Yes. But if I'm allowed to gank someone for gaming the system to try to avoid consequences, what of everything else?
I mean- see what I said above. Also - if you ask most people to say which is worse - Having your character die in pvp, or being exiled/loosing your property, most people will argue the latter. So it's reasonable that we're a bit more stringent on that.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

andthenthatwasthat
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:11 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:38 pm
Also - if you ask most people to say which is worse - Having your character die in pvp, or being exiled/loosing your property, most people will argue the latter.
If that is truly the case then why do we even bother discussing why death is meaningless on Arelith?

a shrouded figure
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by a shrouded figure » Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:22 pm

Err.. I mean that subject has been hashed out over and over. If you want to roleplay permanent death - feel free to do so. I’ll take death over loss of items / property any day as they tend to represent a crushing amount of time invested vs death representing a couple hours. There’s plenty of other servers that offer more sadist level death penalties, their population isn’t that high - haha.

Thanks for all the feedback- I think I’ll generally let people move along when they ignore my initiations. I can only assume that they’re busy / in the middle of something. No need to impose my roleplay randomly on them I guess. And if I catch the same guy doing it a lot, maybe I’ll givem a kick in the butt and see if that gets his / her attention haha

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Xantor_Stromgate » Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:25 am
I actually do think murder is an appropriate response
I had fun once. It was awful.

:twisted:
It's all peaches 'n' cake!

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Diegovog
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Diegovog » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:44 pm

Here's my unpopular opinion: Death should be more meaningless than it is.

People love to say over the forum "it's fine to lose guys!" but the reality is that I've seen people who use that speech here when in game they behave completely different. If you world design discourages dying then the players will reflect that.

I've also seen people who have killed others multiple times and use it as an argument for how bad RPer that person is for not RPing consequences. But again, here's my unpopular opinion; the consequences that should be RPed are the injuries not the death. People who keep returning to their character are the real RPers because they are willing to build story even if they constantly lose.

A good RPer in my opinion is not someone who will roll a character because they died X times, or someone who will do everything in their power to live because a character obviously has to avoid death even if it means lensing immediately out.

Might be more immersion breaking to see your enemies returning to life, but it's healthier as a world design for a healthy and FUN environment for all players.

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Bunnysmack » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:05 pm

Cybren wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:31 pm
Is informing via speedy even sufficient for the required RP before issuing an exile or revoking a shop?
I was once told that there is a SLIGHT exception for delivering notice to an evasive recipient by using GSF Illusion -project_image on the target while the sender is on the same instance as them (and also has settlement authority to evict). Now, I heard this via another player, not a DM, and I've never actually done this action myself, but I was wondering if this is actually an effective exception, or if someone in the community misunderstood the rules. DMs, any insight on this issue?
Diegovog wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:44 pm
I've also seen people who have killed others multiple times and use it as an argument for how bad RPer that person is for not RPing consequences. But again, here's my unpopular opinion; the consequences that should be RPed are the injuries not the death. People who keep returning to their character are the real RPers because they are willing to build story even if they constantly lose.
For this, generally speaking, what I've seen is less a frustration with a tenacity for life, and more a gaming of the respawn system. I have heard of, and seen, people that have died to the same person, for the same reason, several days in a row...Continually come back to the same exact spot, after 24 hours have passed. Sometimes, they don't even wait for the 24 hour rule, and instead use it as a shield to go back to a busy public hangout they just died in and act like they are immortal. One such person that was doing this even claimed their favor from their deity is so strong that they can NEVER die, so they were continuing to do nothing to avoid being killed again for the exact same behavior.

It's less a problem with people RPing conviction to live on, and more a problem with people RPing that "I can OOC respawn" translates into RP of "I'm immortal, I can do whatever I want." And that is where immersion ends up breaking. You need not fear PC death OOC, but your PC should have SOME level of fear towards it IC, or at least a strong motivation to avoid dying again.
"You're insufferable..."
"That's not true! I can totally be suffered!"

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by TroubledWaters » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:21 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:05 pm
I have heard of, and seen, people that have died to the same person, for the same reason, several days in a row...Continually come back to the same exact spot, after 24 hours have passed. Sometimes, they don't even wait for the 24 hour rule, and instead use it as a shield to go back to a busy public hangout they just died in and act like they are immortal. One such person that was doing this even claimed their favor from their deity is so strong that they can NEVER die, so they were continuing to do nothing to avoid being killed again for the exact same behavior.
Someone pulled this on me once and I sent them a tell saying that it looks like they are waiving the 24 hour rule by coming back to the same spot to continue hostile RP, so I would be killing them again soon. They got mad in tells but left a couple minutes later.

I don't feel bad about it.

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by -XXX- » Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:02 pm

The 24 hrs rule is not a shield. It applies to both involved parties equally.

Respawning and simply entering the same place while ignoring the opposing party involved in that recent PvP encounter that's still present sounds a lot like a blatant rule violation to me.

Both involved parties should attempt to actively avoid each other during that 24 hrs time period. Proactively seeking the other party out is the exact opposite of that. The "who lost and who won" part is not really all that important - this is not a capture the flag server.

Another thing to consider: killing someone in the Hub and giving them the "have fun not using the NPC shops while I loiter here for the next day and a half" routine is not being very nice, is it?

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TroubledWaters
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by TroubledWaters » Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:36 pm

I think it would be an improvement if people had to log on to a different character or stay in their quarter/faction HQ "recovering" for 24 hours after they get killed.

Maybe this way we'd get less insta-respawn "OH SO AND SO JUST KILLED ME *describes so and so*" nonsense.

A MAN DRUNK ON POWER
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER » Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:50 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:36 pm
I think it would be an improvement if people had to log on to a different character or stay in their quarter/faction HQ "recovering" for 24 hours after they get killed.

That sounds absolutely awful. "Let's go writs, friend - oh no a gang of higher level people who have decided we are the wrong race/faction/anything and killed us. I guess we are done playing the video game today."

There are servers where you can actually kill someone and ruin their day and character, like EFU. That's a completely server-altering paradigm shift, akin to changing the setting of the server itself, so I feel comfortable using the "play on servers that cater to that desire, don't change servers that aren't that setting" line here.

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TroubledWaters
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by TroubledWaters » Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:52 pm

Logging off for a day will not ruin your character! It will be okay, I promise.

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