The Rules of Engagement

[Drowboy]

"play on servers that cater to that desire, don't change servers that aren't that setting"

To add to it: trying to control how other people play the game is a losing battle that's only going to give you headaches.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Logging off for a day will not ruin your character! It will be okay, I promise.

No, it ruins your day (if you planned on playing a lot of nwn that day), which is why I said "ruin your day or character"

I promise you, it wouldn't improve things. You would not be happy either, the first time it happens to you. And why would you? That sounds awful and miserable to have someone else decide you're done playing for the day. I am of the mind that games should not be awful and miserable.

[Drowboy]

Getting people to log off is usually the opposite of what a game or game server, as the case might be, wants to do.

The crux is, really, that if super hardcore death screws your day online/week of effort/character in general was what people wanted to play, they wouldn't play here. Ravenloft is a great server with harder death rules, as is EFU, and a handful of others.

Servers with the death penalties people claim to crave exist, and yet here we are
On Arelith

[-XXX-]

I think it would be an improvement if people had to log on to a different character or stay in their quarter/faction HQ "recovering" for 24 hours after they get killed.

Maybe this way we'd get less insta-respawn "OH SO AND SO JUST KILLED ME *describes so and so*" nonsense.

We have a very reasonable rule in place that seems to work quite nicely in the vast majority of cases.
In the small fraction of cases where the rule might seem to fail, it is usually the DMs that get called in to decide whether someone's login privileges actually need to be a subject of review - it's NOT supposed to be the call of a player simply because they have a better build/higher level character.



That being said, I too would like to express my wish for the DMs to take a more decisive attitude in addressing the "OH SO AND SO JUST KILLED ME" routine. It appears to be contributing in a rather detrimental way towards the general server immersion and how players seem to be addressing character death.

[TroubledWaters]

We have plenty of rules that control how other people play the game. Don't name your character Drizzt. Don't play an involuntary warlock. These rules are normal because they help establish a setting for the server.

I think that right now, PvP death is basically meaningless for many players, who just respawn and describe their assailant to their friends for instant vengeance and high fives on discord. This is likely bad for the setting and seems to me to be a large part of why death is so cheap here. I think even mandating logging off (or not leaving a house or guild HQ or whatever) for even a couple hours would help add some weight to people dying.

I promise you, it wouldn't improve things. You would not be happy either, the first time it happens to you.

Eh, I already do this. I either RP in a guild HQ as being all bandaged or whatever and don't leave or just log for the day. It actually makes the game more enjoyable for me because I spend less time and mental energy trying to coordinate gank squads while still pretending to care about death.

[Nitro]

Eh, I already do this. I either RP in a guild HQ as being all bandaged or whatever and don't leave or just log for the day. It actually makes the game more enjoyable for me because I spend less time and mental energy trying to coordinate gank squads while still pretending to care about death.

Cool, you do you. Don't force other people who don't think not being able to do things is fun and cool to not be able to do things.

[TroubledWaters]

Well, if we used that argument for everything, we'd allow CE paladins, right?

[torugor]

I often see this reply when people suggest something to work on the entire playerbase specially about death.

Thing is...this is not a law being decided by a goverment for all citizens in a way one can say "hey you are enforcing a law on everybody let people think on themselves." We are talking about death here. Its a law of nature. And it cant work one way to a person and another way to another.

Its like the food system...or the drink system. It cant be for one and not for the other.
If you have a death system easy for one group of people and hard to another...the ones with the easy system will just kill the other group until everybody else is on the easy system. Maybe it happened here..i dont know.

There is a great group of people here (me included) who thinks death is too easy on people. And lots of people here who thinks death is good the way it is. Telling the people who think death is too easy that they should play the game as if it was hard helps nothing (for reasons already writen above)

I for one think the server could be customized to satisfy all.

Cool, you do you. Don't force other people who don't think not being able to do things is fun and cool to not be able to do things.

[Drowboy]

I mean, there already are death mechanics that make it work differently for some people. Mark of Destiny is a thing.

But see, that's the problem. It's not, and never has been, about 'rp integrity' or 'making death feel impactful for me' because one can do that on their own. Get an MoD, roleplay (roleplay! without mechanic sticks or carrots? For fun? Why!) etc. Always an option.

What it's really about, is forcing other people to play the way I want them to, respond in the way I, the death opinion haver, in this year's 50th thread clubbed to death with this same back and forth argument in which neither side will ever, really, budge, have decided is the "Right" way.

[The GrumpyCat]

A few personal thoughts

a) As XXX says, it's on the players involved to be reasonable adults (a big ask I know) and work to avoid each other. In most cases the 'winner' has 'right of way' - which is to say if a conflict took place over an area , then the /looser/ should be avoiding that area.
That said... especialy in the underdark, things get cramped, if you happen to have to pass by the guy that killed you - not neccesarly a huge deal. But as said - ideally you really should be working to avoid each other as much as possible.

b) The question of whether to, and how to, increase the consequence of death is a really complex and highly controvertial issue, and not one I really want to get into too much.
What I will say is this - at present for the most part we, the staff, put a lot of faith in the player base to properly roleplay and respect death - especially pvp death - when it happens.
When players break that faith, we currently deal with that on an individual bases (MoD's and all that).
However should enough players start to disrespect the roleplay of death... should it become a cultural thing, then we may have to consider more mechanical alternatives.

[TroubledWaters]

[Alcomancer]

You should also consider your character. Is your character the kind of guy who would say "Hey, you don't belong!", and then, when not responded to, would resort to MURDERING SOMEONE TO DEATH? Because that sounds like a bit of a leap.

I would like to point out that for surfacers drow and orogs and other underdark races (except notable exceptions) are often the stuff of literal horror stories. They are monsters who are not allowed in civilized parts of the surface even when they're good-aligned.

Playing a monstrous race is not really the same as being part of human society in real life. Monsters should be driven off with force if necessary. The norm for monsters as surfaces often might perceive it are as a dangerous menace who might kill them or a family member. Murder implies something of a value judgment that I don't really think fits well in with how monstrous races are portrayed, or with a roleplaying server themed around D&D to begin with. Killing them really isn't murder. You killed a monster and in that context it's like killing any other NPC goblin, ogre, giant, drow, or orog you might encounter.

That said - the engagement rule is a good one to prevent people from just griefing you despite its being generally cumbersome.

[Drogo Gyslain]

b) The question of whether to, and how to, increase the consequence of death is a really complex and highly controvertial issue, and not one I really want to get into too much.
What I will say is this - at present for the most part we, the staff, put a lot of faith in the player base to properly roleplay and respect death - especially pvp death - when it happens.
When players break that faith, we currently deal with that on an individual bases (MoD's and all that).
However should enough players start to disrespect the roleplay of death... should it become a cultural thing, then we may have to consider more mechanical alternatives.

Sad to say it but honestly? This is already here.

There are many, many people who roleplay death and rebirth as a mere inconvenience, people who are killed, quite brutally, and are up and running around back to their shenanigans or just... chilling out in the middle of town within 30 minutes like nothing happened.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

One of the big reasons I play on Arelith is the lax death system. I can't tell you how disappointing it is to have every story you have going cut short because all of your friends are dead and corpse hidden. You'll spend days running around looking for them. It wears on your emotions, having to put everything on hold like that.
Worse yet is the utterly soul crushing experience when someone griefs a friend through exploiting mechanics, and you're not only searching for a corpse, you're waiting on the DMs to investigate it.

Last December I was showing some friends around another server, when one of them was griefed like this. I was out looking at Christmas lights at the time, I checked my phone, and suddenly I'm explaining how to write a DM report. It killed it for me and reminded me why I left in the first place. NOTHING on Arelith has given me that kind of soul draining feeling inside.

On Arelith, sometimes people run back to where they just died and RP on top of their own bashed remains, or even reference their own bones on the ground in their RP. It's goofy, but, you know what? It doesn't harm my enjoyment or fun. It doesn't ruin any RP going on. I screenshot and send a report to the DMs and go about enjoying the game.

[KT28]

Just to chime in on the original question - this happens all the time in the UD. If an elf/halfling/dwarf (and sometimes even human) is seen within Andunor and ignores people trying to RP with them and carries on with their business, the locals get unhappy and kill it. I've seen it before and my own character has done it before, multiple times. Anyone who does this is asking for trouble, and that's usually exactly what they get. Choosing to respond to "Hey you, identify yourself, stop and speak to me, stop or you die" by continuing to walk away is interactive RP, IMO - they're choosing to walk away accept the consequences.

I expect nothing less for monsters on the surface.

[CNS]

Regarding the crowded nature of the UD and the specific Hub Example.

If a character gets killed in the Hub by a character that spends a lot of time there is a big difference between nipping back into the hub on the losing character to use shops/writmaster and ducking back out quickly and walking into the middle of it to rejoin the social activity happening, while the person that killed you is there.

I'd like to think we're all mature enough to recognise that in the UD if you can't access the hub, life sucks, cause nearly all the servers key NPC resources are there. I'd even probably go so far as to drop the person that killed me a quick tell to let them know "Hey, not looking to waive the 24 hour rule or restart hostile RP, just need to walk through the hub to get to the bandage goblin and bank, will avoid you I'd appreciate you doing the same".

[KeldonDonovans]

You should also consider your character. Is your character the kind of guy who would say "Hey, you don't belong!", and then, when not responded to, would resort to MURDERING SOMEONE TO DEATH? Because that sounds like a bit of a leap.

I would like to point out that for surfacers drow and orogs and other underdark races (except notable exceptions) are often the stuff of literal horror stories. They are monsters who are not allowed in civilized parts of the surface even when they're good-aligned.

Playing a monstrous race is not really the same as being part of human society in real life. Monsters should be driven off with force if necessary. The norm for monsters as surfaces often might perceive it are as a dangerous menace who might kill them or a family member. Murder implies something of a value judgment that I don't really think fits well in with how monstrous races are portrayed, or with a roleplaying server themed around D&D to begin with. Killing them really isn't murder. You killed a monster and in that context it's like killing any other NPC goblin, ogre, giant, drow, or orog you might encounter.

That said - the engagement rule is a good one to prevent people from just griefing you despite its being generally cumbersome.

Lets put this in human terms. We will call drow (and other UD races), mountain lions. Because mountain lions are things that are to be feared, they will kill and eat you if given the chance, etc. etc.

Now, the city you are from (Cordor) has a problem with an overpopulation of mountain lions (kobolds) just to the east (In that kobold dungeon). These mountain lions are feral, attacking everything without warning, and need to be put down. So someone (writ master) hires people willing to do the job. All well and good so far.

But now, when well away from there, you see a mountain lion that isn't ferally attacking everything it sees (random UD player). You shout at him to scare him off. He doesn't growl at you (draw blades/start buffing/etc.) or in any way react in a hostile manner. As a matter of fact, he just kind of saunters off, ignoring you entirely. I'm not saying nobody would run up and murder it anyway, I'm saying there is a clear and defined difference between the two, so just act the way your character would. If your character is a murder hobo, and would murder a house cat because they've seen mountain lions and know they are in the same family, then so be it. But as a guy who plays primarily evil characters, that seems evil even by my standards. Or at least, dumb (the character, not the player) because maybe their int is too low to actually recognize the difference, bad kitty means bad kitty.

And again, I cannot stress this enough: I am not saying that it is against the rules to engage that mountain lion. I am saying you should act as your character would. What stories has your character heard of these guys? Did they hear about the one where every drow you see there are a hundred in the shadows you do not see? Because that would likely stay my hand, and instead have me running for backup. A lot of things about this situation would have me running for backup. But if your character is the type who watches a drow do nothing evil, just walking along, and shouts a "Hey, you don't belong", only to be met with silence as the drow continues on their way, still doing nothing evil (and in fact, departing, since they don't belong) and decides to murder them, then that's your character. Own it. I'm sure people will enjoy playing with you just as much as they enjoy playing with the people who routinely corpse-bash for RP reasons.

[Alcomancer]

You should also consider your character. Is your character the kind of guy who would say "Hey, you don't belong!", and then, when not responded to, would resort to MURDERING SOMEONE TO DEATH? Because that sounds like a bit of a leap.

I would like to point out that for surfacers drow and orogs and other underdark races (except notable exceptions) are often the stuff of literal horror stories. They are monsters who are not allowed in civilized parts of the surface even when they're good-aligned.

Playing a monstrous race is not really the same as being part of human society in real life. Monsters should be driven off with force if necessary. The norm for monsters as surfaces often might perceive it are as a dangerous menace who might kill them or a family member. Murder implies something of a value judgment that I don't really think fits well in with how monstrous races are portrayed, or with a roleplaying server themed around D&D to begin with. Killing them really isn't murder. You killed a monster and in that context it's like killing any other NPC goblin, ogre, giant, drow, or orog you might encounter.

That said - the engagement rule is a good one to prevent people from just griefing you despite its being generally cumbersome.

Lets put this in human terms. We will call drow (and other UD races), mountain lions. Because mountain lions are things that are to be feared, they will kill and eat you if given the chance, etc. etc.

Now, the city you are from (Cordor) has a problem with an overpopulation of mountain lions (kobolds) just to the east (In that kobold dungeon). These mountain lions are feral, attacking everything without warning, and need to be put down. So someone (writ master) hires people willing to do the job. All well and good so far.

But now, when well away from there, you see a mountain lion that isn't ferally attacking everything it sees (random UD player). You shout at him to scare him off. He doesn't growl at you (draw blades/start buffing/etc.) or in any way react in a hostile manner. As a matter of fact, he just kind of saunters off, ignoring you entirely. I'm not saying nobody would run up and murder it anyway, I'm saying there is a clear and defined difference between the two, so just act the way your character would. If your character is a murder hobo, and would murder a house cat because they've seen mountain lions and know they are in the same family, then so be it. But as a guy who plays primarily evil characters, that seems evil even by my standards. Or at least, dumb (the character, not the player) because maybe their int is too low to actually recognize the difference, bad kitty means bad kitty.

And again, I cannot stress this enough: I am not saying that it is against the rules to engage that mountain lion. I am saying you should act as your character would. What stories has your character heard of these guys? Did they hear about the one where every drow you see there are a hundred in the shadows you do not see? Because that would likely stay my hand, and instead have me running for backup. A lot of things about this situation would have me running for backup. But if your character is the type who watches a drow do nothing evil, just walking along, and shouts a "Hey, you don't belong", only to be met with silence as the drow continues on their way, still doing nothing evil (and in fact, departing, since they don't belong) and decides to murder them, then that's your character. Own it. I'm sure people will enjoy playing with you just as much as they enjoy playing with the people who routinely corpse-bash for RP reasons.

Treating drow like mountain lions doesn't actually work for the analogy because mountain lions don't practice human sacrifice. I think treating them as such is misguided at best, because when a mountain lion attacks its doing something wild animals do. When a drow enslaves, murders, or sacrifices you, it is explicitly committing an evil act on purpose.

[Nobs]

lions are a nature thing....they kill for food.

Drow kill their brother just to take his possition in their house..

[KeldonDonovans]

lions are a nature thing....they kill for food.

Drow kill their brother just to take his possition in their house..

Some drow do. That's correct. Just like a feral mountain lion will eat his brother for food. That's why I used the feral/non feral example.

Perhaps we go back to Nazi Germany. Your character sees a German. Knows what Nazis are infamous for. The human experiments, the mass murder. And here is a German. In all likelyhood, a Nazi. But he isn't doing anything particularly Nazi-like. Still, you don't want him around, so you shout out to him that he doesn't belong. He meanders off without response. That sounds like compliance to me, as if he is accepting your statement of him not belonging. So now you chase him down and kill him. Some characters would see this as a perfectly viable response to seeing a German sauntering. Some characters would not. I am not saying it is wrong to do it either way, I'm saying do what your character would do in that circumstance. If they are the type who is going to kill that German regardless, simply because they have heard the horror stories of Nazis, then I would say you'd be better off shouting something a little more hostile than "Hey, you don't belong here!" even if it's only slightly different (Like "Hey, you aren't welcome here, prepare to die!" or "Hey, you don't belong here! *Draws blade*")

And before you decide that your character would unwaveringly decide to PvP an underdark race simply because they existed in their presence and didn't take the time to type a response, remember the higher RPRs revolve around bending your RP to involve others and encourage their RP, trying to make things fun for all. I'm not saying invite the guy over for tea. I'm saying treat him like a hostile threat, drive him out of town, sure. But taking a moment that could have lead to some great RP and turning it into an XP penalty for the person who made the grave mistake of walking on the surface should not be your first resort.

[Drowboy]

jesus christ dude

Maybe let's uh, let's pull back a little bit, huh.

[Nitro]

Cool, Godwin's law has been invoked and we're only on page two of the thread.

And before you decide that your character would unwaveringly decide to PvP an underdark race simply because they existed in their presence and didn't take the time to type a response, remember the higher RPRs revolve around bending your RP to involve others and encourage their RP, trying to make things fun for all. I'm not saying invite the guy over for tea. I'm saying treat him like a hostile threat, drive him out of town, sure. But taking a moment that could have lead to some great RP and turning it into an XP penalty for the person who made the grave mistake of walking on the surface should not be your first resort.

I'm going to ignore the weird analogies and cut straight to the point. If a drow ignores a person calling out for them to stop, leave or anything else then they're explicitly not turning anything into RP. They're just banking on being allowed to walk away because of nebulous PvP rules. They are the one that makes the only possible interaction available PvP because they ignore all other attempts at interaction.

EDIT: And this applies to anyone, regardless of race, alignment, faction or location. If you ignore someone in a tense situation, you deliberately cut off avenues of RP and turn the only two outcomes possible into A: leaving uncontested and B: Being PvP'd.

[SkipiusEsq]

Trying to relate this aspect of a fantasy world to real life is too exaggerated (at least to me). We play characters in a world where a simple walk between towns is fraught with danger. Not just from wild animals looking for a meal, but from more intelligent creatures whose first action is to attack you. Any character with a wisdom above 3 is on guard and cautious of those dissimilar to itself. So when you see "something that doesn't belong," you are necessarily going to be cautious and mentally prepare yourself for battle. Even if you investigate by trying to talk to the creature that you understand to be anathema to your civilization, you are likely not going to trust that creature's non-hostility as anything other than biding its time before it attacks. Even if it does end up walking away, maybe it is because it has decided that you are too difficult to fight, so it will seek to quell its need to kill someplace else. Perhaps on a weak family down the road or a resting adventurer. So then your character must decide how it would react. Are you the self-interested sell sword who shrugs and thinks, "Well, then that family should hire me to protect it?" or are you perhaps the paladin who will throw yourself at the creature to prevent its future evil acts?

As for monster races, the surface "do-gooders" are out for one thing - killing every last one of you. Their motives are never simple trade. Plus, your god, family, society, demand that you destroy these beings. So when you see the moon elf walking in the hub checking shops, you likely don't trust it is there simply to purchase a hard-to-find item. Instead, you would probably believe it is likely a ploy to gather intel to feed to its Myon masters for a future, larger raid. So you question the spy, who tries to walk away, knowing it is outmatched in the hub. You may be a drow that hates all surface elves because it what you have been taught day in and day out for the past three centuries and decide that bringing its body back will buy you some favor with your house and the temple. Or, you may be an industrious duergar who would rather just spend your time mining gems and ore, leaving the politics to someone else.

Despite my initial comment about fantasy vs. real world, I view the relationship between the surface and the underdark (and even different towns and groups of races) as more akin to a world in the midst of war. You likely trust those of your race and reasonably those from the same general area. You also likely mistrust and treat as enemies those that are on the "other side." If you stumble upon the "enemy", would you simply let them walk away or would you engage? That is up to your character and you can use the opportunity to create a fun story for yourself and others. (E.g., if you let the sneaking kobold go, tell others that you saw it, maybe you go out looking for it, everyone is a bit more on guard as they adventure, you might try to find out how it got there, etc.)

Of course, I also hope that there is room in the story for the single "enemy" to earn through RP its right to travel where normally they would not be allowed. For example, you see a kobold walking the streets of Cordor and you grab your sword and approach it. Your friend says, "Oh, leave that one be. That's Johnny the Neighborhood Kobold. He comes in every month to sell his cookies and buy some candies from the local vendors. He's been coming here for years and is no threat."

[KeldonDonovans]

I keep getting responses that basically say "No, cause it'd be reasonable to attack in this situation, because look at this logic!"

I must be relaying my point incorrectly. Because I am specifically trying to say go ahead and attack, -IF- it is what your character would do. Saying "Look at all this logic" shows me that you believe that that is what your character would do, you don't even have to explain it to me. I believe you. I'm just saying don't decide to PvP them because you think they are trying to rules-lawyer their way out of a confrontation. PvP them if it is what your character would do.

And in case it wasn't clear that time, here is one more for the people in the back:
-If you PVP them because it is what your character would do -> Congrats, you've acted in character.
-If you PVP them because you (the player) want to impose a penalty on the target for some perceived OOC slight -> That is bad. Don't.

[The GrumpyCat]

We expect hostility, distrust, hatred, fear ect between monster and none monster races.

Other interactions are possible but should all be done with the above emotions in mind.

And whilst this CAN! lead to PvP and that is an entirely acceptable response, it does not HAVE TO. Use your imagination here folks.

It will always be case by case, and judgements should be cast dependent on the character you're playing, the situation involved, and the character you're dealing with.