The Rules of Engagement

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Ninjimmy
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Ninjimmy » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:01 pm

KeldonDonovans wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:35 pm
I keep getting responses that basically say "No, cause it'd be reasonable to attack in this situation, because look at this logic!"

I must be relaying my point incorrectly. Because I am specifically trying to say go ahead and attack, -IF- it is what your character would do. Saying "Look at all this logic" shows me that you believe that that is what your character would do, you don't even have to explain it to me. I believe you. I'm just saying don't decide to PvP them because you think they are trying to rules-lawyer their way out of a confrontation. PvP them if it is what your character would do.

And in case it wasn't clear that time, here is one more for the people in the back:
-If you PVP them because it is what your character would do -> Congrats, you've acted in character.
-If you PVP them because you (the player) want to impose a penalty on the target for some perceived OOC slight -> That is bad. Don't.
Re: the responsea, Its probably because your examples make it sound like attacking is a bad RP choice, i.e. what sorta maniac attacks a none hostile mountain lion, vs what sorta person spends time trying to converse with Azragul the Flesh Ripper, renowned ripper of fleshes who for whatever reason isnt speaking to you right now when you ask what he's up to.

If you're playing someone who, realistically has fought and killed 100s of goblins/kobolds/drow even maybe, its a little odd to suddenly speak to them but like you say you bend the RP to accomodate.

But you gotta treat the monster as a monster at the end of the day, its not a mountain lion or a german. And it probably isnt Drizzt.
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torugor
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by torugor » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm

I remember the first time i played Baldurs Gate and went to the city of Baldurs Gate and in the goverment district we could find Virconia (female drow priestess of shar) being burned alive by an angry mob in the town square.

By then you can either help her and gain a new member to your team at the cost of loosing 2 points of reputation in the city.

Or let her burn alive.

In the same game we can find Drizzt and either decide to kill him and get his stuff or help him fight some gnolls.

Forgotten realms is the setting and drows are supposed to be evil monsters who serve lolth and shar and want surfacers dead. I am surprised how welcoming underdark folks are to humans. Their reaction towards surfacers should be even more aggressive than the surfacers reactions towards drows.

In Baldurs Gate 2 the only reason you can enter the city of the drows is because you get disguised to a drow. First time i entered andunor i was really...really afraid i would be killed on sight. Then i saw it is much more tolerant than cordor is to my character.

My point is that neither the surface treats underdarkers (or even surfacers) as usual for forgotten realms nor underdarkers treat surfacers as usual to forgotten realms setting. Arelith has its own culture very particular

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:27 pm

torugor wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm
In Baldurs Gate 2 the only reason you can enter the city of the drows is because you get disguised to a drow. First time i entered andunor i was really...really afraid i would be killed on sight. Then i saw it is much more tolerant than cordor is to my character.

My point is that neither the surface treats underdarkers (or even surfacers) as usual for forgotten realms nor underdarkers treat surfacers as usual to forgotten realms setting. Arelith has its own culture very particular
Well, the old drow settlement for the server, Udos, from what I heard, would likely have had a similar reaction to visiting non-drow of most varieties as the section of BG2 you describe where the party infiltrates Ust Natha. Especially so if the visitor couldn't speak the local languages.

The fact is, Andunor is not a drow settlement, it's a cultural melting pot of the underdark as a whole, with a focus on trade. That last part is important. If you shoot everyone in the face for not looking like you, you won't generate much in trade revenue, and even canon drow cities have a trade quarter that relaxes the hostility by a few degrees to allow for commerce. Additionally, the fact that it isn't JUST a drow city, means that a certain generalized tolerance is necessary.

Now, it is still mostly a city of evil. Anyone found to be harboring sentiments that go against the rather horrifying cultural norms will likely be persecuted at best, at worst: killed/enslaved/exiled/etc.

Additionally, I have often found the actual Drow district of Andunor, the Devil's Table, does harbor a lot of the Ust Natha qualities you mentioned, to at least some extent. To be sure, it's still greatly reduced compared to canon Forgotten Realms drow, but if any NON-drow goes into that district and shows even a small amount of disrespect to a drow female (and some of the drow males), they can expect a VERY hostile response from the local drow populace.
Last edited by Bunnysmack on Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:29 pm

If you made Andunor intolerant to surfacers you'd have to remove the gnolls, kobolds, and any other surfacer race. Or force them to be slaves. If you check Menzo's stats, they import surface produce. So that free 1% of humans? Probably criminals and smugglers, sort of like how humans in Andunor are probably not great people, which the outcast background represents. But all of this is comparing Andunor to Menzo. Which the team has repeatedly stated it's not.

What Andunor is supposed to be, is Skullport.

Image

This could be the Hub any given day of the week.


This conversation is always about removing humans, without looking at the greater context. Most monsters in Andunor are surfacers too. In fact, if you cracked down on surfacers, monsters would have fewer rights than a human. Even the drow think they're monsters, the monstrous population in Menzo are all slaves. Free humans at least can be useful and smuggle things.

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by torugor » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:33 pm

Well i am glad to know that. I did think Andunor was Ust Natha of Arelith this explanation really helps understand why my character wasnt enslaved the first visit.
Bunnysmack wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:27 pm
Well, the old drow settlement for the server, Udos, from what I heard, would likely have had a similar reaction to visiting non-drow of most varieties as the section of BG2 you describe where the party infiltrates Ust Natha. Especially so if the visitor couldn't speak the local languages.

The fact is, Andunor is not a drow settlement, it's a cultural melting pot of the underdark as a whole, with a focus on trade. That last part is important. If you shoot everyone in the face for not looking like you, you won't generate much in trade revenue, and even canon drow cities have a trade quarter that relaxes the hostility by a few degrees to allow for commerce. Additionally, the fact that it isn't JUST a drow city, means that a certain generalized tolerance is necessary.

Now, it is still mostly a city of evil. Anyone found to be harboring sentiments that go against the rather horrifying cultural norms will likely be persecuted at best, at worst: killed/enslaved/exiled/etc.

Additionally, I have often found the actual Drow district of Andunor, the Devil's Table, does harbor a lot of the Ust Natha qualities you mentioned, to at least some extent. To be sure, it's still greatly reduced compared to canon Forgotten Realms drow, but if any NON-drow goes into that district and shows even a small amount of disrespect to a drow female (and some of the drow males), they can expect a VERY hostile response from the local drow populace.

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:37 pm

Heh, yeah, if you want to see a drow response in line with what you are expecting, try owning property in the Devil's Table without prior authorization, run for office there, or speak to one of the House Matrons like you would an equal (especially if standing IN that district, or the Temple of Lolth). I think you will quickly find the flavor you are expecting if you try any of those things in that district :D
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by torugor » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:43 pm

I had the opportunity to have a bit of that on devil's table.
Not much because my character is a priest. I expect priests to show a level of acceptance toward another priest even when of opposite alignment spectrum because of the high wisdom.
When i talked with a priestess of lolth in devil's table i noticed she didnt like my presence, tried to show superiority but didnt try to enslave or kill me.
I have the same amount of respect to priests of other deities even in opposite aligment spectrum because you know...gods are real and we priests are only servants of bigger powers.
Bunnysmack wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:37 pm
Heh, yeah, if you want to see a drow response in line with what you are expecting, try owning property in the Devil's Table without prior authorization, run for office there, or speak to one of the House Matrons like you would an equal (especially if standing IN that district, or the Temple of Lolth). I think you will quickly find the flavor you are expecting if you try any of those things in that district :D

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:00 pm

Heh, spoken like a lawful priest. I can assure you that my CE Abyssalist cleric of Demogorgon can, will, and HAS desecrated altars of lawful deities in the most crass ways he could imagine, purely because his mindset is steeped in the chaotic nihilistic hedonism that demonkind is oh-so-fond of. There are many flavors of priest.

This is, however, getting a little off track. Apologies. My fault for getting into rambling-nerd mode about lore topics I'm fond of. Back to your regularly scheduled debate about acceptable PvP standards!
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:36 pm

torugor wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm
I remember the first time i played Baldurs Gate and went to the city of Baldurs Gate and in the goverment district we could find Virconia (female drow priestess of shar) being burned alive by an angry mob in the town square.

By then you can either help her and gain a new member to your team at the cost of loosing 2 points of reputation in the city.

Or let her burn alive.

In the same game we can find Drizzt and either decide to kill him and get his stuff or help him fight some gnolls.

Forgotten realms is the setting and drows are supposed to be evil monsters who serve lolth and shar and want surfacers dead. I am surprised how welcoming underdark folks are to humans. Their reaction towards surfacers should be even more aggressive than the surfacers reactions towards drows.

In Baldurs Gate 2 the only reason you can enter the city of the drows is because you get disguised to a drow. First time i entered andunor i was really...really afraid i would be killed on sight. Then i saw it is much more tolerant than cordor is to my character.

My point is that neither the surface treats underdarkers (or even surfacers) as usual for forgotten realms nor underdarkers treat surfacers as usual to forgotten realms setting. Arelith has its own culture very particular
This is a great post, and I think it highlights the core issue that's being discussed

On the one hand - we want (and are obliged) to play our characters and the setting.

On the other - (and maybe I'm nieve here) I think most players want other players to have a good time, and simple, one or two line 'pvp because of what you are' is rarely fun.

Balencing these two things is the real challenge, and will very a lot, player by player, situation by situation.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

a shrouded figure
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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:27 pm

I recall once my drow female calling a drow priestess a B word... lol that was an exciting exchange. I don’t know how many of her friends it would have taken to woop my butt- but I can tell you they used all four! Hahaha

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Alcomancer » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:43 am

KeldonDonovans wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:22 pm
snip.
No. This ignores entirely the fact that drow are not just some different nation of elves. They're a subgroup of elves who have been drastically mutated by Underdark radiation and are dogmatically controlled by a violent, chaotic evil goddess that commands them to do the things they do and punishes the ones who don't. They are not humans with a broken dysfunctional political ideology that is doomed to fail. They are a race of inhuman monsters with supernatural powers who are bent on destruction. They are not unintelligent animals hunting by instinct because that is how carnivores subsist. Drow are not normal because they are explicitly monsters. This is the norm, and exceptions should expect that their lives are in constant danger.

Making comparisons between human political ideologies or instinctive animal behavior doesn't work because drow are neither animals nor humans with dimorphic social structures. They're micromanaged by lolth to be the monsters they are very much on purpose, and anyone who threatens that social structure usually either gets a vision from to stop, a visit from a priest to kill them to make them stop, or just straight up killed by lolth on the spot if she's in a particularly bad mood.

They are not analagous. They are basically from outer space and have proven hostile - except they live under you.

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Re: The Rules of Engagement

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:46 am

I like the example of saying "You wouldn't welcome a cougar into your community, they'll kill and eat you," because it points out the ridiculousness of welcoming monsters. But the example's also flawed because an uncomfortable number of people would love to have a wild animal as a pet, and would give wild animals pets and hugs if given the opportunity.

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