Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

[D4wN]

So, I've been playing an UD character for a little bit and I remember there were very strict guidelines around humans and other non-typical UD races casually strolling about Andunor. So much so even that there was a change made to the portal in the hub which can no longer be used unless you are a slave, outcast or monster race.

I've noticed a siginificant increase of non-outcast, monster and slave people casually making Andunor their home and just hanging around the Hub fearless and if they belong. Now, I get that some people are undercover and what not, using disguises. That's fine. I also get that some players have dedicated a lot of time building a significant reputation in Andunor that might warrant them writs of passage etc. But I figured these should be the exception rather than the rule and should be earnt.

In the same vain the rules around trying to play monster races on the Surface are pretty cut and dry. I'm just wondering if something has changed around this or maybe I'm just imagining things? Have other people noticed this? Do other people have issues with this? Just interested in people's thoughts on this topic.

[Diegovog]

The portal change was made so a surface warparty wouldn't simply sprout right into the belly of the beast and start attacking everyone.

Afaik there are no rules regarding non-UDers hanging around as much as they want. But they will inevitably be branded as UDer if they constantly do it. And if they are obvious spies and nobody is questioning/threatening them then Andunor's community isn't doing it right.

The reverse tag for surfacers in UD was asked many times and as many times explained that will not be happening.

[D4wN]

I distinctly remember comments being made about slaves who were set free and that they were not to stay in the Underdark after they were set free.

[DangerDolphin]

And if they are obvious spies and nobody is questioning/threatening them then Andunor's community isn't doing it right.

I mean, if you're yelling out your evil plans out in the Hub then they're going to get around everywhere, surface spies or not.

These people are may be warlocks/heckblades/necromancers/etc. You just don't know.

They may also be visiting for trade (Which is what Andunor is there for). And as someone above said, if they're there ALL the time, then they're going to get a bad rep.

[Aradin]

A point of distinction is almost always (in my experience) these are humans. Elves, surface dwarves, halflings - these races will feel the full range of UD anger when showing their faces. But yes, there are lots of people I suspect being surfacers wandering around Andunor. The two reasons why I, as a monstrous character, don't do anything about it:

1) Andunor is a trade city. Surfacers are welcome in Andunor to trade and go about brief business then leave, like monstrous races in Sibayad. This is sanctioned by the NPC powers that be.
I think it's worth being concerned about the integrity of the setting, but if the NPC houses and factions that rule the city say that surfacers visiting is okay (there's even a sign in the Hub right in front of the portal, explicitly for visiting surfacers!) then I'm going to accept that surfacers can visit. And if I see a surfacer in the Hub, I usually can't know if they've just arrived and are shopping, or they've been there for hours spying. I could put in some effort to try and find out, but...
2) It's exhausting to constantly be on the lookout for enemy surfacers. I don't want to spend my play time tracking all these different characters and seeing if I should be taking action against them or not. I tried doing that for a while and got sick of it quickly. It's a constant paranoia you develop because surfacers coming to Andunor is so frequent, and although some people may enjoy that I'd prefer to do something else.

The surface and Andunor aren't equal in this regard. Monstrous & UD races have a far harder time spending time on the surface than most given surfacers will in Andunor. Whaddaya gonna do. In the end I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and let them go about their day, because at worst we're going to get some spying, assassinations, and other conflicts - and those aren't bad things!

[D4wN]

I sort of agree on some points? I mean, I love good conflict RP. I'm just saying that I suppose there is little reason to take the downsides of an Outcast tag if people can just enjoy chilling in the Hub with very little/no consequences. When if you try and do the reverse of spying, creating conflicts on the surface as a 'villain' or Outcast it's almost impossible to do so. It just doesn't feel balanced to me I suppose is what I'm trying to say?

[Itikar]

I mean, Skullport, the most famous analogous to Andunor in the Forgotten Realms lore, has plenty of hins, dwarves, humans and even some free elves, who work and trade there. If anything Andunor is a bit more restrictive than that.

But given that I don't see anything particularly troubling for the integrity of the setting. If it is not balanced, well, it is because the setting is like that. A human can go and live, with many risks and difficulties, even in a full drow city like Menzoberranzan, but a drow could never do that in a human city (okay maybe there are a few exceptions like Bezantur, but let's not digress ).

[DangerDolphin]

I sort of agree on some points? I mean, I love good conflict RP. I'm just saying that I suppose there is little reason to take the downsides of an Outcast tag if people can just enjoy chilling in the Hub with very little/no consequences. When if you try and do the reverse of spying, creating conflicts on the surface as a 'villain' or Outcast it's almost impossible to do so. It just doesn't feel balanced to me I suppose is what I'm trying to say?

I agree, the tag is pretty silly and it should all just be RP based.

It does give you a few things like the language, portal access and Faerzress immunity though. The last one is almost essential for casters.

[Xerah]

I really like the outcast tag.

[Glowing Mushroom]

1) Andunor is a trade city. Surfacers are welcome in Andunor to trade and go about brief business then leave, like monstrous races in Sibayad. This is sanctioned by the NPC powers that be.
I think it's worth being concerned about the integrity of the setting, but if the NPC houses and factions that rule the city say that surfacers visiting is okay (there's even a sign in the Hub right in front of the portal, explicitly for visiting surfacers!) then I'm going to accept that surfacers can visit.

This is a groundbreaking quote for me.

With all the characters I've ever made on Arelith, the Surface RP regarding Andunor has always labeled it, incontrovertibly, as a place you do not go. Ever.

So reading this is cray cray to me. I never knew about this sign as well because it's been so deeply ingrained in the Surface RP to never go to Andunor, so I've never seen it.

Based on this quote it sounds like I am able to - Very delicately - Spend more time there in brief, concise, and seldom visits? There's a lot of wonderful RP potential there!

I can certainly see the origins of this thread creating a concern with Surface characters getting too cozy in Andunor, but it sounds more complex than just that. I know about a feather's weight in terms of how UD RP works as a total.

Advice always appreciated!

[DM Rex]

When we had the Outcast moved to a reward only, we saw a significant decrease in their creation.
As such, we then saw an immense uptick in human slave characters being made since initially it didn't require a reward.

Situations where those same characters chose to remain were privately contacted and informed of a choice needing to be made. Simply put they could be eventually outcast just by association and their then choice to remain below, or they could head to the surface and rejoin the population above.
Since the reward has been lifted we've noticed a lot less of the issue of slave characters remaining below after becoming freed. Which isn't to say they might not be approached now if such was the case, but it's been less of a common occurrence.

• In Andunor where you cannot see the tag - Making the assumption that everyone who isn't someone you know that's a human is/isn't an outcast is a poor in character action, since it's based on your OOC knowledge of the mechanics.
• Outside of Andunor - Seeing a character that is an outcast would make a character understandably wary, but that isn't to say they should always be kill on sight. Automatic pariahs and other systems deter them from lingering in settlements.

The reason for the tag system was, in part, at least due to players who were indistinguishable, hence we had several outcast characters lingering in and around towns just as easily as any other character who was started out with no background. Which largely became just a human with a free language and extra accessible portals, but couldn't take the ship (Laurick) with ease. (Also capable of being overcome with mechanics.) So being that there was a lack of roleplay respecting that seedy backstory, this at least provided some means of telling people apart.
The surface, I'd argue is far more tolerant of characters they might not necessarily know as long as they don't kick up too much of a fuss. On the other hand, Andunor actively has various ebbs and flows of interest or concern in anyone they don't find familiar. And with a tagging system available to them would be far more aggressive in pursuing those that don't 'belong'.

Both Surface and Underdark realms should be wary in their respective ways, and their suspicion and interactions as such are encouraged.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

This is a groundbreaking quote for me.

With all the characters I've ever made on Arelith, the Surface RP regarding Andunor has always labeled it, incontrovertibly, as a place you do not go. Ever.

So reading this is cray cray to me. I never knew about this sign as well because it's been so deeply ingrained in the Surface RP to never go to Andunor, so I've never seen it.

Based on this quote it sounds like I am able to - Very delicately - Spend more time there in brief, concise, and seldom visits? There's a lot of wonderful RP potential there!

I can certainly see the origins of this thread creating a concern with Surface characters getting too cozy in Andunor, but it sounds more complex than just that. I know about a feather's weight in terms of how UD RP works as a total.

Advice always appreciated!

Some advice based on my experiences as a surface player:
If you can be recognized as a surfacer you might run into issues. I'd suggest making an alternate outfit and using the -cover feature to disguise yourself if you want to check it out. Generally the more of a spectacle you make of yourself, the more trouble you'll run into. But I guess you could say the same of anywhere. I've personally not had any issues whenever any of my characters spend time in Andunor, but, my characters always have a reason to be there whenever they're there, and they usually have someone who is willing to vouch for them. If you can't speak Undercommon, you'll draw a lot more attention to yourself. You might run into other surfacers while down there! That's when things get awkward.

[msterswrdsmn]

This is a groundbreaking quote for me.

With all the characters I've ever made on Arelith, the Surface RP regarding Andunor has always labeled it, incontrovertibly, as a place you do not go. Ever.

So reading this is cray cray to me. I never knew about this sign as well because it's been so deeply ingrained in the Surface RP to never go to Andunor, so I've never seen it.

Based on this quote it sounds like I am able to - Very delicately - Spend more time there in brief, concise, and seldom visits? There's a lot of wonderful RP potential there!

I can certainly see the origins of this thread creating a concern with Surface characters getting too cozy in Andunor, but it sounds more complex than just that. I know about a feather's weight in terms of how UD RP works as a total.

Advice always appreciated!

Going to Andunor as a surfacer is more or less like going to any other incredibly dangerous city/town/etc.

You really aren't there to socialize. You're going in for a reason, getting your business done, then getting the hell out.
-Conversely, you -do- want to emote/react accordingly if approached or passing by other players.
-Having some form of disguise or cover isn't a requirement, but its something highly recommended.
-Have money. Some (not all) Andunorians are more tolerant of visitors if they're obviously there to spend money rather than, say, speedrun to all the message boards in the city.
-Don't have money? Have something you can drop in a hurry as a "trade good".
-Try to find other players familiar with Andunor, its politics, and layout to help you prep or guide you.
-Try not to draw attention to yourself. Large, armed groups of blatantly warded surfacers was always grounds for Andunor to go on high alert. Especially if its a known person (ex: a known paladin, harper, do-gooder, or faction leader). Either because its believed they're coming down to spy, or they're a really, really attractive target.

[Lexx]

This is a groundbreaking quote for me.

With all the characters I've ever made on Arelith, the Surface RP regarding Andunor has always labeled it, incontrovertibly, as a place you do not go. Ever.

So reading this is cray cray to me. I never knew about this sign as well because it's been so deeply ingrained in the Surface RP to never go to Andunor, so I've never seen it.

Based on this quote it sounds like I am able to - Very delicately - Spend more time there in brief, concise, and seldom visits? There's a lot of wonderful RP potential there!

I can certainly see the origins of this thread creating a concern with Surface characters getting too cozy in Andunor, but it sounds more complex than just that. I know about a feather's weight in terms of how UD RP works as a total.

Advice always appreciated!

Going to Andunor as a surfacer is more or less like going to any other incredibly dangerous city/town/etc.

You really aren't there to socialize. You're going in for a reason, getting your business done, then getting the hell out.
-Conversely, you -do- want to emote/react accordingly if approached or passing by other players.
-Having some form of disguise or cover isn't a requirement, but its something highly recommended.
-Have money. Some (not all) Andunorians are more tolerant of visitors if they're obviously there to spend money rather than, say, speedrun to all the message boards in the city.
-Don't have money? Have something you can drop in a hurry as a "trade good".
-Try to find other players familiar with Andunor, its politics, and layout to help you prep or guide you.
-Try not to draw attention to yourself. Large, armed groups of blatantly warded surfacers was always grounds for Andunor to go on high alert. Especially if its a known person (ex: a known paladin, harper, do-gooder, or faction leader). Either because its believed they're coming down to spy, or they're a really, really attractive target.

I honestly couldn't put it better myself than what has been said here.

[deserk]

Surface races, save for half-orcs and dwarves don't have Darkvision which means they would be utterly blind dead meat in the UD. So I genuinely don't understand what the idea is behind allowing outcasts in Andunor. And especially when this server allows surfacers in the UD but not the other way around.

[Amnesy]

Surface races, save for half-orcs and dwarves don't have Darkvision which means they would be utterly blind dead meat in the UD. So I genuinely don't understand what the idea is behind allowing outcasts in Andunor. And especially when this server allows surfacers in the UD but not the other way around.

Constant darkvision is an option at the basin.

I always thought of Aundunor as Sibayad, but where bad things happen all around you all the time and can happen to you at moment's notice, regardless of who you are and who you know.

And I think the S races in UD is more of an IG stuff, where it comes to handling. And it is visible due to the Andu being the only settlement below.

[Might-N-Magic]

Going to Andunor as a surfacer is more or less like going to any other incredibly dangerous city/town/etc.

You really aren't there to socialize. You're going in for a reason, getting your business done, then getting the hell out.
-Conversely, you -do- want to emote/react accordingly if approached or passing by other players.
-Having some form of disguise or cover isn't a requirement, but its something highly recommended.
-Have money. Some (not all) Andunorians are more tolerant of visitors if they're obviously there to spend money rather than, say, speedrun to all the message boards in the city.
-Don't have money? Have something you can drop in a hurry as a "trade good".
-Try to find other players familiar with Andunor, its politics, and layout to help you prep or guide you.
-Try not to draw attention to yourself. Large, armed groups of blatantly warded surfacers was always grounds for Andunor to go on high alert. Especially if its a known person (ex: a known paladin, harper, do-gooder, or faction leader). Either because its believed they're coming down to spy, or they're a really, really attractive target.

All this sounds good on paper but is utterly pointless without consequences more than "I killed you, so respawn in 3 minutes on the surface with a little xp loss."

Slavery and punishment is utterly voluntary, so it's meaningless. The Underdark isn't scary, it's a daytrip for people wanting better prices. Andunor has no teeth.

God knows how many times Thraldor has caught and killed some Cordorian spy or known paladin and it's just "well, see you next time you come down, buddy."

[Nitro]

Surface races, save for half-orcs and dwarves don't have Darkvision which means they would be utterly blind dead meat in the UD. So I genuinely don't understand what the idea is behind allowing outcasts in Andunor. And especially when this server allows surfacers in the UD but not the other way around.

Light is a cantrip all caster classes have access to.
Torches and light enchantments are virtually free with how cheap they are.
Ultravision exists in both wand and potion form and is easily accessible.
Darkvision can be enchanted on gear.

Let's not pretend darkness is a problem for anyone with an adventuring lifestyle and a couple of functional braincells.

[Curve]

God knows how many times Thraldor has caught and killed some Cordorian spy or known paladin and it's just "well, see you next time you come down, buddy."

Surfacers, Cordorian spies, or known paladins are not set pieces to your story. They are not around just to be killed and taught a lesson, never to return again and bother you. I understand that some players behavior feels problematic and not in line with yours or my idea of what makes good and setting appropriate RP, but that player probably feels the same way about you or me some times.

If demanding respect through PvP is not working then try something else. Try engaging with them in a different way. If the person you are engaging with refuses to be reasonable, or be affected by IG actions and happenings then take thirty minutes and write a concise report for the DMs.

We are not the RP police.

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello. I may post more thoughts later, but as of now here's a rules check.

Surfacers should NOT own any property in Andunor/underdark.

If you arn't an monster race/Outcast/Slave you should not be owning property down there.

If you are a slave that has been freed, and wish to continue being part of that community, I would strongly advise working towards getting the outcast token ASAP.

[Royal Blood]

In my experience if there is even a whiff of a surface then a lynch mob comes to hassle them away. Like even just spotting a surfacer results in war parties setting out to hunt them down.

I do agree that sometimes it feels a bit cheesy how often you bump into an elven or surface spy but, as another poster said, players aren't 'RP police' so I'd opt for trying to engage with said spy or something. If there is a habitual problem a DM could be involved but in my experience it's not been that bad.

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm still kind of confused as to why surface citizens can recognize outcasts but outcasts can't recognize each other.

[strong yeet]

Outcast tags should stay until the DM team is prepared to viciously throatpunch anyone who doesn't properly respond to an outcast character, or outcasts who don't exhibit behaviours one might expect from someone called an outcast.

Some of you might ask, well, wait, hold on, what's a proper response, and what are those behaviours? and now you see why it's sadly necessary we have tags.

As for Thraldor the badass killer man and respawn timers, well, I'm pretty sure Andunor is supposed to be scary in the same way that buying illicit stuff from the rough part of a big city one state over is scary -- kind of a bad idea, but not an equivalent to suicide. If you equate killing someone for visiting "your" city (lol) as the incorrect alignment as "toothless" because they can respawn, it's probably not this visitor who ought to examine their approach & mindset.

Andunor is not some super deep node nestled far away from the surface world, it is and has always been very close to the surface; while I'm not an area developer and I can't speak for the ones who wrought the Underdark, I don't believe this is something that exists as an oversight or accident. Andunor itself is not even a stone's throw from a dungeon which itself is literally one area away from one of the most popular non-settlement thoroughfares on the whole server.

With that said, a monster's position and a surfacer's position as far as freedom of travel goes are objectively inequitable. For a goblin, there is as much of the civilised world to see as there is for a drow, which is Andunor, and then to a far lesser extent Sencliff. You might argue that, despite all the DM messages and administrator posts and snarky NPC dialogue, this is why there's such a lingering undercurrent of this mindset, of goblins and drow and gnolls being so particularly prickly over their quote-unquote "turf," but that's hard to say.

Is that a problem of design, or player perception? Why? Curious for more than just my own thoughts on that.

[Glowing Mushroom]

Thanks for the tips guys! This helps a lot. Always looking to improve.

[Kalgoon]

I've recently, for the first time ever, visited the Underdark as a Surfacer and I've had a pleasant experience, all things considered. I feel the reactions from the locals were fitting and appropriate. From the indirect death threats, to looming doom, and the demands for money.

For context, I play a Rock Gnome. I came to Andunor with the idea that I should be disguised, invisible, and sneak about all of the time, because I thought that I would be a kill on sight target. Seriously, that's what I OOC expected, never having been there before. Getting found out by a Matron destroyed my perceptions of Andunor and I learned firsthand that if I have legitimate business, I am okay, and I should not be acting like a spy. Bribes also help. Come with bribes.

What I'm getting at is that I think the Underdark is okay right now. Those perceived Surfacers walking around have either been confronted or are about to be, but determine if it is important enough to your character that they are the one to bring it up.

Back to my example/experience, aside from bribes, I've connected with people I knew before from the Surface who have their own reputation down below and I have been building my own reputation, I think... maybe. I could just be tolerated and not know, which is part of the fun. I haven't been harassed again, but I expect to be at some point, because it feels like there are a lot of moving parts in the Underdark's politics and I haven't run afoul of any yet. YET.

I have not openly been "look at me, I'm a Surfacer!" But I have been disguised.

Just my two copper pieces.

tl;dr The Underdark is just fine.