Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Wrips » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:19 pm

I like any effort or action made to promote interaction between the surface and the underdark.

Gaal
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:17 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Gaal » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:59 pm

Glowing Mushroom wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:26 am
Aradin wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:08 am


1) Andunor is a trade city. Surfacers are welcome in Andunor to trade and go about brief business then leave, like monstrous races in Sibayad. This is sanctioned by the NPC powers that be.
I think it's worth being concerned about the integrity of the setting, but if the NPC houses and factions that rule the city say that surfacers visiting is okay (there's even a sign in the Hub right in front of the portal, explicitly for visiting surfacers!) then I'm going to accept that surfacers can visit.
This is a groundbreaking quote for me.

With all the characters I've ever made on Arelith, the Surface RP regarding Andunor has always labeled it, incontrovertibly, as a place you do not go. Ever.

So reading this is cray cray to me. I never knew about this sign as well because it's been so deeply ingrained in the Surface RP to never go to Andunor, so I've never seen it.

Based on this quote it sounds like I am able to - Very delicately - Spend more time there in brief, concise, and seldom visits? There's a lot of wonderful RP potential there!

I can certainly see the origins of this thread creating a concern with Surface characters getting too cozy in Andunor, but it sounds more complex than just that. I know about a feather's weight in terms of how UD RP works as a total.

Advice always appreciated!
It's always nice when the potential slave comes to us instead of us chasing them down on the sunny side. lol

Perem, El Grotto de Gnome


User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6572
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:17 am

I mean, I will say historicaly the DM team hasn't ever really had to police that sort of underdark/surface interactions because the player base tends to do it for us?

The surface - very braudly speaking of course - is Good Aligned.
Good tends to be associated with kindness, tolerance, empathy, open mindedness ect.

The Underdark - braudly speaking but far less so - is Evil Aligned
Evil is assocated with cruelty, bloodthirstyness, and intolerance.

So a Drow hopping to say, Guldorand is more likely to be met with 'awww a Drow! Want to be friends? I'm not racist. I won't judge you by your race, you are innocent until proven guilty! Come make friends with us! Wanna cookie?'
Which means that we as DMs tend to have to talk to the players involved and explain to everyone involved that no, a Gnoll can't be mayor of Bendir.

But an elf in Andunor is more likely to be met with 'Fresh meat's back on the menue boys!' and that isn't really something we have to intervene with much (unless the pvp is particularly terrible)

Which - I hasten to add, isn't specifcally saying we're advocating for pvp on sight for either underdarkers on the surface, or surfacers in the underdark. But more that the sort of hostility/distrust/hatred rp we would expect to see, is more often realized by the player base (or perhaps more accuratly character base) of the underdark than those on the surface.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

andthenthatwasthat
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:51 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:32 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:17 am

So a Drow hopping to say, Guldorand is more likely to be met with 'awww a Drow! Want to be friends? I'm not racist. I won't judge you by your race, you are innocent until proven guilty! Come make friends with us! Wanna cookie?'
Which means that we as DMs tend to have to talk to the players involved and explain to everyone involved that no, a Gnoll can't be mayor of Bendir.

But an elf in Andunor is more likely to be met with 'Fresh meat's back on the menue boys!' and that isn't really something we have to intervene with much (unless the pvp is particularly terrible)
Quite the opposite in my experience. I have seen more kill on sight interactions with my UD chars on the surface, and almost none in the UD with my surface characters. Could be just me or the type of characters I played in both cases.

Arigard
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Arigard » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:31 am

andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:32 am
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:17 am

So a Drow hopping to say, Guldorand is more likely to be met with 'awww a Drow! Want to be friends? I'm not racist. I won't judge you by your race, you are innocent until proven guilty! Come make friends with us! Wanna cookie?'
Which means that we as DMs tend to have to talk to the players involved and explain to everyone involved that no, a Gnoll can't be mayor of Bendir.

But an elf in Andunor is more likely to be met with 'Fresh meat's back on the menue boys!' and that isn't really something we have to intervene with much (unless the pvp is particularly terrible)
Quite the opposite in my experience. I have seen more kill on sight interactions with my UD chars on the surface, and almost none in the UD with my surface characters. Could be just me or the type of characters I played in both cases.
No, you're pretty much spot on. Going to the surface on any character that even has a shred of evil about them (especially if they are a monster race) has ended in either instant dislike PvP, or characters running to a city to get a mob in my experience. I would love to have some interesting RP on the surface on some of my monster characters, but I've just had too many engagements that end in one lined instant dislike.

On the contrary, sometimes even trying to enforce hostility towards even diametrically opposed races in the Underdark gets frowned upon even when they act like they own the place.

Here's something that often seems a bit of a contradiction to me. Is Cordor not a trade city? Is Guldurand not a trade city? Technically any settlement is going to make a lot of income off of opening it's borders to trade and commerce. Most of these places have ports and in reality they are all 'trade cities' to some extent.

If i were to march my Gnoll into Cordor spouting "But it's a trade city!" I'm still going to get murdered in double quick time. So I don't quite understand why the whole 'trade city' blanket immunity for RP (which is what it seems to have become in reality) is solely used for Andunor. It almost feels at times like the OOC discussion of it being a trade city bleeds into RP (I've had people literally say to monster PCs IC "But I'm allowed to be here it's a trade city") etc. It's honestly very hard to rationalize at times IC.

There's no centralized authority that is going to step in to stop violence on the streets of Andunor and there's plenty of races available to trade with in the Underdark, so why would races that have a pathological hatred of Elves, Halflings and surface Gnomes allow them to walk around like it's fair game? And why would they expect to want to trade with them? And why does this rule then not apply to surface cities? If trade is so important that you can put aside all racial and lore based hatred, why does it not also happen above and only in one place below? Clearly the trade from Andunor isn't so important that they'll allow my Drow to march up there and open up shop and it's not like the radient heart are going to suddenly open doors to drow for trade just because they need to sell and buy things (even if they were desperate because they have their morals/values/ethics etc), so why is it that under-dark races are almost just expected to play ball because of 'trade?'.

Humans are one thing, but a sun elf walking into Andunor saying it's fine because they are coming to trade next to Drow, or a surface Gnome doing the same next to a Kobold just seems completely illogical, yet I've seen it happen and I've seen players get angry about reactions to them because of this whole OOC idea that Andunor is a trade city and so it should be allowed. Racial bias and hatred of other races doesn't simply stop the second someone sets foot inside a 'trade city'.

IMO the whole OOC connotation that Andunor is a 'trade city' and the surface 'isn't for monsters' does more harm to the actual setting and RP of these races than it helps. It gives people validation to do things that in reality make very little sense in one aspect of RP & forces people to simply often give up trying to be true to the lore of their characters, whilst providing an excuse to jump the gun and get trigger happy with PvP whenever they feel like it in the other hand. The OOC bleeds through into RP and it does end up with people simply stopping to bother on both counts because it's just not worth the hassle of trying to actually RP your character properly because the underlying OOC subtext is basically "I can do whatever I want on any kind of character and stay as long as I want as long as I'm saying I'm here for trade" and "I can kill you the moment I see you because you're not supposed to be here".
Last edited by Arigard on Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Gorehound

User avatar
ReverentBlade
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by ReverentBlade » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:46 am

Best solution is to make monster races DM only :)

User avatar
mirvv
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 2:21 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by mirvv » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:27 am

Arigard wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:31 am
andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:32 am
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:17 am

So a Drow hopping to say, Guldorand is more likely to be met with 'awww a Drow! Want to be friends? I'm not racist. I won't judge you by your race, you are innocent until proven guilty! Come make friends with us! Wanna cookie?'
Which means that we as DMs tend to have to talk to the players involved and explain to everyone involved that no, a Gnoll can't be mayor of Bendir.

But an elf in Andunor is more likely to be met with 'Fresh meat's back on the menue boys!' and that isn't really something we have to intervene with much (unless the pvp is particularly terrible)
Quite the opposite in my experience. I have seen more kill on sight interactions with my UD chars on the surface, and almost none in the UD with my surface characters. Could be just me or the type of characters I played in both cases.
No, you're pretty much spot on. Going to the surface on any character that even has a shred of evil about them (especially if they are a monster race) has ended in either instant dislike PvP, or characters running to a city to get a mob in my experience. I would love to have some interesting RP on the surface on some of my monster characters, but I've just had too many engagements that end in one lined instant dislike.

On the contrary, sometimes even trying to enforce hostility towards even diametrically opposed races in the Underdark gets frowned upon even when they act like they own the place.

Here's something that often seems a bit of a contradiction to me. Is Cordor not a trade city? Is Guldurand not a trade city? Technically any settlement is going to make a lot of income off of opening it's borders to trade and commerce. Most of these places have ports and in reality they are all 'trade cities' to some extent.

If i were to march my Gnoll into Cordor spouting "But it's a trade city!" I'm still going to get murdered in double quick time. So I don't quite understand why the whole 'trade city' blanket immunity for RP (which is what it seems to have become in reality) is solely used for Andunor. It almost feels at times like the OOC discussion of it being a trade city bleeds into RP (I've had people literally say to monster PCs IC "But I'm allowed to be here it's a trade city") etc. It's honestly very hard to rationalize at times IC.

There's no centralized authority that is going to step in to stop violence on the streets of Andunor and there's plenty of races available to trade with in the Underdark, so why would races that have a pathological hatred of Elves, Halflings and surface Gnomes allow them to walk around like it's fair game? And why would they expect to want to trade with them? And why does this rule then not apply to surface cities? If trade is so important that you can put aside all racial and lore based hatred, why does it not also happen above and only in one place below? Clearly the trade from Andunor isn't so important that they'll allow my Drow to march up there and open up shop and it's not like the radient heart are going to suddenly open doors to drow for trade just because they need to sell and buy things (even if they were desperate because they have their morals/values/ethics etc), so why is it that under-dark races are almost just expected to play ball because of 'trade?'.

Humans are one thing, but a sun elf walking into Andunor saying it's fine because they are coming to trade next to Drow, or a surface Gnome doing the same next to a Kobold just seems completely illogical, yet I've seen it happen and I've seen players get angry about reactions to them because of this whole OOC idea that Andunor is a trade city and so it should be allowed. Racial bias and hatred of other races doesn't simply stop the second someone sets foot inside a 'trade city'.

IMO the whole OOC connotation that Andunor is a 'trade city' and the surface 'isn't for monsters' does more harm to the actual setting and RP of these races than it helps. It gives people validation to do things that in reality make very little sense in one aspect of RP & forces people to simply often give up trying to be true to the lore of their characters, whilst providing an excuse to jump the gun and get trigger happy with PvP whenever they feel like it in the other hand. The OOC bleeds through into RP and it does end up with people simply stopping to bother on both counts because it's just not worth the hassle of trying to actually RP your character properly because the underlying OOC subtext is basically "I can do whatever I want on any kind of character and stay as long as I want as long as I'm saying I'm here for trade" and "I can kill you the moment I see you because you're not supposed to be here".
Thats it! I agree totally. Well summarized, i feel the very same for a long time playing goblin in Andunor, and when visit the surface. Also i gave up caring the mentioned situations as well, you clearly illustrated the situations and outcomes very fine.
Characters:
"Papa" Rasma: ALT (merchant goblin of Golden Goblin Korporation)
Ashnodh: MAIN (wild goblin tribal of the Broke Tooth Clan)

Died/Rolled:
Murag, Rusmo, Rismu, Fivez, Ret, Galepen, Crab

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6572
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:36 pm

I think that you're right in that there has been a shift since the olden days - monsters are far less tolerated on the surface (generally) and surfacer types are far more tolerated in the UD (generally.)

The latter may be something we need to look at a little.

Ultimatly the reason why Cordor does not accept monster races, and Andunor accepts surface races can come to this simple example.

Merchant in Andunor: 'Hay, interested in these fresh children hearts I have? Maybe some livers?'
Andorian: 'Neat, where did you get them from? Were they alive upon removal?'
Merchant: 'Yep, kidnapped some of the slave kids in the slums and cut them out myself. Satisfaction guaranteed!'
Andorian: 'Well I can't say no to a deal like that!!'

Merchant in Cordor: 'Hay, interested in some fresh children hearts I have? Maybe some livers?'
Cordorian: 'YOU WHAT?!'
Merchant: 'They're fresh! Cut them out of poor orphans myself, so no one anyone would care for. Come on I'll give you a two for one deal.'
Cordorian: 'oh my god you monster! GUARDS!'
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

andthenthatwasthat
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:51 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:52 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:36 pm
I think that you're right in that there has been a shift since the olden days - monsters are far less tolerated on the surface (generally) and surfacer types are far more tolerated in the UD (generally.)

The latter may be something we need to look at a little.

Ultimatly the reason why Cordor does not accept monster races, and Andunor accepts surface races can come to this simple example.

Merchant in Andunor: 'Hay, interested in these fresh children hearts I have? Maybe some livers?'
Andorian: 'Neat, where did you get them from? Were they alive upon removal?'
Merchant: 'Yep, kidnapped some of the slave kids in the slums and cut them out myself. Satisfaction guaranteed!'
Andorian: 'Well I can't say no to a deal like that!!'

Merchant in Cordor: 'Hay, interested in some fresh children hearts I have? Maybe some livers?'
Cordorian: 'YOU WHAT?!'
Merchant: 'They're fresh! Cut them out of poor orphans myself, so no one anyone would care for. Come on I'll give you a two for one deal.'
Cordorian: 'oh my god you monster! GUARDS!'
That is a good example. That is pretty much what guides my RP in Anunor either as a local or as a surfacer.

Arigard
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Arigard » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:21 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:36 pm
I think that you're right in that there has been a shift since the olden days - monsters are far less tolerated on the surface (generally) and surfacer types are far more tolerated in the UD (generally.)

The latter may be something we need to look at a little.

Ultimatly the reason why Cordor does not accept monster races, and Andunor accepts surface races can come to this simple example.

Merchant in Andunor: 'Hay, interested in these fresh children hearts I have? Maybe some livers?'
Andorian: 'Neat, where did you get them from? Were they alive upon removal?'
Merchant: 'Yep, kidnapped some of the slave kids in the slums and cut them out myself. Satisfaction guaranteed!'
Andorian: 'Well I can't say no to a deal like that!!'

Merchant in Cordor: 'Hay, interested in some fresh children hearts I have? Maybe some livers?'
Cordorian: 'YOU WHAT?!'
Merchant: 'They're fresh! Cut them out of poor orphans myself, so no one anyone would care for. Come on I'll give you a two for one deal.'
Cordorian: 'oh my god you monster! GUARDS!'
From a RP stand point I understand this. The issue is that this RP simply doesn't exist IC. There aren't trades of overtly 'evil' inspired goods floating just around Andunor that don't exist on the surface (drugs/illicit goods etc). There's also places like DIS and the shadowplane that could be utilized for these also. People tend to react to what they see IG and respond to it and in reality the RP IG behind 'trade' below is exactly the same as trade above. People are going for adamantine, runes, weapons etc, all of which are exactly the same items as what you'll find in a Cordor shop, or in any settlement. So in reality what our characters are seeing day in and day out is trade that consists of exactly the same items as can be found anywhere else in the world.

So in terms of context, I would 100% understand it if there was an actual mechanical black market in Andunor that couldn't be found anywhere else in the server, but in reality it's just people coming down to grab things at cheaper prices because it's easier to go to epic dungeons and grab adamantine, or other things that surfacers want. In that respect to playing evil races, it seems a stretch of RP and requires crowbarring how you might actually react if the OOC handcuffs were removed so to speak.

If the reason for surfacers coming below is that they want to get their hands on adamantine for cheap A) What is the motivation for why Monster Races want this to happen in the first place (strengthening the surface just for a little more gold when they are being beaten down every moment they set foot there makes little sense) B) Where is that 'black market' RP justification in reality from day to day in Andunor actually occurring?

The issue to me with Andunor has always been that it makes very little logistical sense for what is actually happening. The characters are allowing completely free open trade (because there's a heavy OOC insinuation that it should happen) at the expense of logical and tactical IG reactions that would happen if this was not the case. Likewise what is really the point of investing into disguise, or subterfuge RP if it's so easy to simply march down into these areas without consequence?

Allowing such open borders a) undermines both the slavery and the outcast mechanics and it really is a little bit of a bitter pill for monster races to swallow when it's not a two way street. If on the one hand they are being policed so heavily on the surface, they need to be allowed to be true to their RP in Andunor, or only one side is actually being allowed to RP their races/lore properly & the other ends up feeling more like a plot device that fully fleshed out characters.

This isn't to say anyone wants to return to an Udos situation where everyone is being PKed on sight, but the re-establishment of Andunor as an actual dangerous place in the server, where there are no real laws on the streets, where you face and expect real threat if you are found out as being a surfacer regardless of the fact it's a trade city & where openly accepting surfacers into establishments is frowned upon is accepted across the server rather than there being an OOC expectation that players can go there as they like on any kind of character as long as they start talking about trade should IMO be the reality.

If I walked up to a drug den in a bad part of my neighborhood and started spouting "Hey but I'm allowed to be here, you want my money right!!" especially if I was from a group that said neighborhood hated a) I wouldn't be doing that, because I'd be fearing for my safety and respecting the environment and b) there's a high likelihood that i'm going to get myself in trouble I don't want.

Trade doesn't equate to a total and complete disregard of all political and socially motivated drama, but that is how it's being taken and used in Andunor. People turn away enemies from trading all the time in reality. It's a political & logical power move.

Now that the disguise mechanics have been changed and it's even difficult for the majority of players to see what racial type someone is, I feel like there is no longer any reason for the OOC clarification that Andunor is a 'trade city' to even exist as it does more harm than good to the atmosphere of what should be a dangerous and unwelcoming place. To me it should almost be like when someone goes undercover. They are worried at all points that they might get 'found out' etc. Players should expect danger when they go there, but right now it feels like monster races are only really in the server for 'show' because the second anyone tries to do anything that remotely resembles the actual lore of their races, it inevitably ends up getting undermined by an OOC label of Andunor as a Trade City that gives people an automatic get out of jail free card unless they are literally standing in the hub insulting people to their faces and stirring up trouble (which also still does happen).
Gorehound

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6572
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:49 pm

I feel perhaps I have not been clear enough - so I shall be.

The NPCs of Cordor are not OK with creatures round for murder, torture, slavery and worse wandering around town.

The NPCs of Andunor are more ok (but likely not completely OK, but OK enough) with the 'weaker' races wandering about, because they expect such weak targets to be scammed out of all they own, or murdered on sight by someone else.

That's the NPCs.

If you as PCs want to kill surfacer pcs that go into Andunor? That's fine. There's no 'right' for surfacer npcs to just wander there willy nilly. I'd suggest that there are more interesting things to do than murder on sight - but nothing is stopping you from taking that stance.

You are, however obligated to act according to your alignment and your race. That can involve killing them, that can also involve scamming, beating, torturing, enslaving, maiming, decieving and a wide vareity of other options. In that way you have a far larger amound of roleplay freedom than surfacer PCs, who's reactions to monsters should at best be heavy distrust and, more likely, hatred and fear.

Now if Andunor is turning into a place where Paladins roam freely, declairing the joy of Torm. Drow laugh and giggle with surface elves, and planning their charity-for-the-poor maskarade ball. If the Chuch of Lolth is outlawed, slavery is gone, and Gnolls preach the importance of love, peace and forgivness. If that is happening? Then yeah. We need to step in and do something. Because people are not roleplaying their alignment or their race.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Aradin » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:43 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:49 pm
The NPCs of Andunor are more ok (but likely not completely OK, but OK enough) with the 'weaker' races wandering about, because they expect such weak targets to be scammed out of all they own, or murdered on sight by someone else.
I feel like NPCs set the precedent here. If the Peacekeepers are okay enough with surfacer races wandering around, why shouldn't my character be? If it's because the Peacekeepers *expect* us to scam and murder surfacers, then that puts the onus of Andunor's moral direction on the players. Which would be fine, except that the playerbase isn't allowed to go against the wishes of House Freth, House Claddath, Gracklstugh, and the Hubmaster - all of whom want Andunor to be open for trade with surfacers. Which leaves me...not entirely certain what route to take.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6572
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:58 pm

I'll try and answer this as clearly as I can.

Question: Can we kill Surfacer PCs in Andunor?
Answer: Yes. If you want to institute a policy of every single surfacer pc in Cordor must die, (NOTE - SURFACERS!!!! Not Outcasts. Not Slaves. Not pcs who Start in Andunor. SURFACERS) you may do that. That is allowed and - so long as pvp rules are followed, will not be punished. The NPC houses such as Freth would likely consider this a waste of opportunity - and so would I ooc - because just murdering pcs is dull and wasteful when you've so many other options as your disposal. But you can do that if you really really want.

Question: Can we allow Surfacer pcs to trade/linger in Andunor?
Answer: Yes. That's fine too. I'd suggest monsterious pcs still try and take advantage of such cratures, and rp their alignment as expected. But they may tolerate the presence of surfacers in the city, if they wish.

Question: Can Surfacer PCs live in Andunor?*
Answer: No. Or at the least, not unless they are making very serious strides to becoming Outcasts.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:00 pm

The peacekeepers don't give a rats rear what you do as long as you don't disrupt city operations.
Kill every surfacer you come across? They don't care.
Kill every drow of a rival house? They don't care.
Extort everyone whose first name starts with "F"? They don't care.
Try to take over the hub and blockade it so only your faction can use it? Now they might care because that directly impacts the city operations, but that's still not a sure thing because even then other denizens of Andunor might well clean up the problem for them.

The way Andunor is set up is to allow almost any kind of conflict within the city. The peacekeepers are there to make sure 12-man gangs of Hoarran paladin's cant squat in the hub all day ganking people at the portal, and to keep other gribblies like Illithid from invading the city.

And the two great houses couldn't care less what happens on a day to day basis as long as no one disturbs them or tries to take their districts from them. They just want to conduct their house business in peace with the infrastructure of a functioning city to draw resources and protection from.

That's what Andunor is, controlled anarchy. It's entirely unlike any surface city by design and has no other place like it on the server. Players are free to attempt to impose whatever rules they want, as long as they're not directly harmful to the city at large, and will have to contend with other players in their quest to do so. And when they are gone, their agenda goes with them and the city reverts to its status-quo of anarchy until another group tries to impose their values.

EDIT: Grumpy Ninja'd me pretty hard there >:(
Last edited by Nitro on Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by LichBait » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:03 pm

Not to be too glib, but.. as only surfacers can see the Outcast tag, how is one to tell the difference aside from forcing them to speak in undercommon, or marching them to the Hub Portal for verification? If there is to be a clear divide, should not Outcast tag be shown to everyone?

Current
Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir


User avatar
Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:11 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:05 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:58 pm
I'll try and answer this as clearly as I can.

Question: Can we kill Surfacer PCs in Andunor?
Answer: Yes. If you want to institute a policy of every single surfacer pc in Cordor must die, (NOTE - SURFACERS!!!! Not Outcasts. Not Slaves. Not pcs who Start in Andunor. SURFACERS) you may do that. That is allowed and - so long as pvp rules are followed, will not be punished. The NPC houses such as Freth would likely consider this a waste of opportunity - and so would I ooc - because just murdering pcs is dull and wasteful when you've so many other options as your disposal. But you can do that if you really really want.

Question: Can we allow Surfacer pcs to trade/linger in Andunor?
Answer: Yes. That's fine too. I'd suggest monsterious pcs still try and take advantage of such cratures, and rp their alignment as expected. But they may tolerate the presence of surfacers in the city, if they wish.

Question: Can Surfacer PCs live in Andunor?*
Answer: No. Or at the least, not unless they are making very serious strides to becoming Outcasts.
LichBait wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:03 pm
Not to be too glib, but.. as only surfacers can see the Outcast tag, how is one to tell the difference aside from forcing them to speak in undercommon, or marching them to the Hub Portal for verification? If there is to be a clear divide, should not Outcast tag be shown to everyone?
I'll be glib then, and say "This."

Done.


andthenthatwasthat
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:51 am

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:32 pm

Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:05 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:58 pm
I'll try and answer this as clearly as I can.

Question: Can we kill Surfacer PCs in Andunor?
Answer: Yes. If you want to institute a policy of every single surfacer pc in Cordor must die, (NOTE - SURFACERS!!!! Not Outcasts. Not Slaves. Not pcs who Start in Andunor. SURFACERS) you may do that. That is allowed and - so long as pvp rules are followed, will not be punished. The NPC houses such as Freth would likely consider this a waste of opportunity - and so would I ooc - because just murdering pcs is dull and wasteful when you've so many other options as your disposal. But you can do that if you really really want.

Question: Can we allow Surfacer pcs to trade/linger in Andunor?
Answer: Yes. That's fine too. I'd suggest monsterious pcs still try and take advantage of such cratures, and rp their alignment as expected. But they may tolerate the presence of surfacers in the city, if they wish.

Question: Can Surfacer PCs live in Andunor?*
Answer: No. Or at the least, not unless they are making very serious strides to becoming Outcasts.
LichBait wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:03 pm
Not to be too glib, but.. as only surfacers can see the Outcast tag, how is one to tell the difference aside from forcing them to speak in undercommon, or marching them to the Hub Portal for verification? If there is to be a clear divide, should not Outcast tag be shown to everyone?
I'll be glib then, and say "This."
No. Because it is not clear that infamy of a person on the surface would mean much in the Underdark. To an Underdarker they are just another non-monster creature. Mechanically, also no because it would likely lead to OOC problems.

Also note I say monster and non-monster because surface means nothing in case of Anunor. Most monster races there are also surface races. They just happen to be surface monster races.

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:39 pm

T-t-t-triple post!
andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:33 pm
Also please do not drag PCs through arches of Benedick by asking them to take the Hub portal
That is... Just not fun.
Quoting this for truth though, using oblique game mechanics to reveal [x] about a character is just cheesy.

User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by LichBait » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:41 pm

andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:33 pm
Also please do not drag PCs through arches of Benedick by asking them to take the Hub portal
That is... Just not fun.
Couldn't agree more, which is kind of why I kind of brought up those cheesy extremes as some of the possible negative side effects of the double standard of the Outcast Tag, especially if the intent is to have further specific rulings that add to the divide in what is acceptable in Surface and Underdark RP interactions.

Current
Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir


User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by LichBait » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:03 pm

andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:33 pm

No. Because it is not clear that infamy of a person on the surface would mean much in the Underdark. To an Underdarker they are just another non-monster creature. Mechanically, also no because it would likely lead to OOC problems.
Addressing separately. If someone has done something vile enough that it resonates among the populace of the whole isle of Arelith, even if they have originated from beyond the Archipelago's borders I would think word of such deed would find its way down to the /Uppderdark/ city of Andunor. A city that is a trading power (information is a commodity after all), and has the very real and nearby threat of the Surface nations. In fact, I'd argue that that information would mean a lot more. If there is someone so vile that the whole of the surface agrees is a threat, would not an Underdark power want to get their hands on them to use them against their foes above?

I'd like to clarify though that I rather hate the Outcast Tag to begin with (though I do recognize that it does help the overburdened DM team cut down on being the RP police). I think it hinders RP opportunity more than it creates it, but I loathe its double standard even more. If Surfacer interactions in Andunor don't require a mechanical oversight solution (read: tags), then does it not follow that the Underdark would also need to see them especially if the rules upon the specifics of Underdark/Surface RP are to be more restrictive/defined?

But to not deviate too much from the original topic, I do understand (and even support) that the UD shouldn't be too chummy with Surfacer elements and vice versa. I don't even disagree that the Underdark should be more tolerant of Surfacer interaction below than the Surface should be tolerant of Underdark interaction above. That is just the nature of the setting, it seems. There is more opportunity for shady/evil RP to come to Andunor, than there is for shady/evil RP to come to the surface at least at this point in time.
Last edited by LichBait on Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Current
Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir


Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:06 pm

I'm not sure why you're bringing up rules being more restrictive. Grumpycat specifically stated above to treat surfacers like surfacers, whether they have an outcast background or not. The reason why the outcast tag isn't visible is to facilitate just that, because as cynical as it sounds the kind of people who ask humans to touch the hub portal would otherwise gank those without the tag.

User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by LichBait » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:12 pm

Nitro wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:06 pm
I'm not sure why you're bringing up rules being more restrictive. Grumpycat specifically stated above to treat surfacers like surfacers, whether they have an outcast background or not. The reason why the outcast tag isn't visible is to facilitate just that, because as cynical as it sounds the kind of people who ask humans to touch the hub portal would otherwise gank those without the tag.
It's mostly in response to the earlier rules check post about property. I've not seen such a rule in the rules threads (though I admittedly could have overlooked such).

Current
Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir


Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:19 pm

It's been the case since Andunor was introduced, mechanically even. A surface character is unable to purchase property in Andunor and always have been.

User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by LichBait » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:22 pm

Nitro wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:19 pm
It's been the case since Andunor was introduced, mechanically even. A surface character is unable to purchase property in Andunor and always have been.

Non-Outcast humans can buy Andunorian/UD property at this point in time. I'm not sure about monster races being able to buy surface property, but I know in the past that an Outcast owned Sibayadi property.

Current
Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir


Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:35 pm

You're right, I was crazy thinking about something else. But it makes sense to restrict regular surface characters from owning Andunor property, because otherwise the outcast tag is literally just a portal enabler. And picking that background is already like shooting yourself in the foot.

Locked