Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

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Dracorid3r
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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Dracorid3r » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:08 pm

*forum lurker comes out of the shadows*
Tl:dr
Outcast/slave - minor reward gate, its an RP Q-gate.
Underdark shouldn’t be so forgiving with surfacers. Either that or surface needs to be more forgiving with outcasts and slaves. Else its skewed IG.
There is a status quo: that’s hard to break
Generally haven’t had too much of an issue with it, except from long time players, who dgaf anymore.
there is a healthy sense of fear from new players.

And on the phone so apologies for grammar/sentence structure.




Right, as someone who plays almost exclusively underdark characters. (But I have played a couple surfacers over the years)

My first ever encounter with the underdark was udos era. Need I say more? It was awesome, it was exactly what I expected when I joined a underdark server. I can also see why it could be rough.

A quick blurb on my feelings on surface vs UD.
Underdark and surface can be hypocritical, it’s been said above, but underdarkes constantly get ran out of town, mobbed, shunned, etc ..it’s gotten to the point where disguise is imo, a requirement for any underdarker to even think about going into any surface city. I can understand why people would take that stance with monster races. I hate the outcast tag. The slave collar makes sense.

Personally I don’t /really/ see this huge “surfacer” running around thing. I call them out constantly if I figure it out and it’s semi-rare. Personally I’ve also seen mob’s go out for surfacers. Just very recently, a group of pally’s was in the underdark, team underdark in like 5 minutes had a huge group that tracked them down, there was some dialogue, pvp initiated, 25 seconds later it was over.

Honestly If I had one real gripe with areith, it’s player behavior, Evil ganks good, good complains, good ganks evil, evil complains. OOC/IC. But thats kinda off topic.

My only suggestion, is either remove tag, which I doubt will happen OR, minor award outcast and slave.

I know, I don’t like mechanical limitations either. They made outcast a normal reward, then a minor, and yeah outcasts got more rare, but slave was unlocked.. so it turned into influx of slaves, who acted like outcasts. Slave being minor means you need to at least play a monster race until 16, or a surface race to 16, then make the conscious decision to RP an outcast/slave. Thats a small gate for RP quality.

I’d think that would clear up some of the underdark/slave problem, as for the feelings between surface and underdark. I don’t think there is a simple solution. Unless it gets mechanicaly enforced, IG, its going to be the status quo, BAD team gets ganked on surface, Good team (mostly paladins and other very obvious people,) get ganked in underdark. Everything else gets ignored.

This has turned into a mishmash of all my problems not just OP. But I get an average of two posts per year, so I gotta make it count .

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Deryliss » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:12 am

After taking a hiatus of roughly a year from Arelith (2020 was rough..) there's a definite and palpable difference between Andunor then and Andunor now. I'm not judging which one is better or worse, but acknowledging that indeed times are a-changin'.

Andunor then was much more openly about internal conflict. Most of my early RP in Andunor was centered around the hostilities between the Devil's Table and the Sharps, on spies, backstabbery and infiltration. Much of the RP was inward focused, and in some cases drawn across racial lines very clearly. Surface conflict was the very rare time in which any unity was shown, and it would quickly dissolve into more backstabbery once the fight was over.

Andunor now is almost entirely outwardly focused. It's all about deep vs surface, and creating a 'united Andunor' that can hold its own against the surface one day even conquer it maybe. Groups that once would have had to treat very, very lightly in Andunor are now accepted with open arms as allies and spoken highly of between residents. One drow unironically spoke the words "I'm proud that Andunor is such a diverse and inclusive place" in the hub a few days back, in reference to the increased Zhentarim and Sharran presence in the city.

Andunor by its design is very much a melting pot. No matter how much you dislike *insert person/faction/race*, you will still have to share the same hub with them today, tomorrow, and every day. There's not much else to go, and really only because Saltspar is there now and actually more than just a teleport hub with a single shop like it was before. This, ironically, leans people towards tolerance and acceptance, and leads to conflicts boiling over quickly and then cooling back down quickly so that trade can resume.

I think, given the status quo, that some level of acceptance of surfacers in Andunor is just a thing that is there now, and is at least part of the Hub culture. We'll simply have to accept it as the changing times.
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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by TroubledWaters » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:15 pm

The population of surface-orgin PCs in Andunor is an effect of there being nowhere really safe for them to go on the surface. If you are a surfacer aligned with any evil faction and don't have points in bluff or perform, you can expect to be killed on sight until you roll, sometimes with the aid of scriers looking out for you, specifically. This is part of the game, yes, but the absence of anywhere to grind or sell loot without the ever-present threat of "you're a bad guy, die" death squads drives people into Andunor.

Sibayad used to be somewhat of a haven for surface evil PCs, though in recent months additional ganks by good-aligned factions in the middle of the town has driven a few groups and PCs away. I can't fault individual players for the ganks, as the systems of the server (and non-enforcement of laws by the Merchant League) enables and promotes this behavior. I'd probably do the same thing in their shoes, as it makes rational IC sense for them to establish a presence there and kill rival factions.

Perhaps if there really is a place for surface evil to exist in the new Guldorand or elsewhere, we'd see fewer surfacers lurking around Andunor and the dynamic may change.

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Eira » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:22 pm

Deryliss wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:12 am
Andunor then was much more openly about internal conflict. Most of my early RP in Andunor was centered around the hostilities between the Devil's Table and the Sharps, on spies, backstabbery and infiltration. Much of the RP was inward focused, and in some cases drawn across racial lines very clearly. Surface conflict was the very rare time in which any unity was shown, and it would quickly dissolve into more backstabbery once the fight was over.

Andunor now is almost entirely outwardly focused. It's all about deep vs surface, and creating a 'united Andunor' that can hold its own against the surface one day even conquer it maybe. Groups that once would have had to treat very, very lightly in Andunor are now accepted with open arms as allies and spoken highly of between residents. One drow unironically spoke the words "I'm proud that Andunor is such a diverse and inclusive place" in the hub a few days back, in reference to the increased Zhentarim and Sharran presence in the city.
I am unsure if I can even put into words how much I miss the Andunor of the first paragraph. It's a really conflicting feeling. I love the city feeling unsafe and backstabby. I love there being constant danger and having to actually work for plans/alliances/etc to be put into motion when there's a greater purpose. I love the entire aesthetic and feeling of a city that does not care about its citizens unless they force a reason to care.

But I don't miss the constant OOC salt and behaviours, the reams of people getting banned after city-wide wars, the sense that every single little conflict has to turn into a huge sword contest of who has more allies to dunk on the other.

People say Andunor is supposed to be like Skullport, but that's something rarely actually enforced. To clarify before my next words are taken out of proportion, no I don't think surfacers should be flaunting walking through willy-nilly. But I think no one should actually care if they are unless they have been personally wronged (or have some way they can benefit). I have an ideal vision of Andunor that I’ll attempt to parse out here.


~~~~~



There is a city of monsters, outcasts, and other creatures in the Underdark.

People who make it there, for whatever reason, are either looking for a refuge that they cannot get on the surface, a stomping ground to gain power and make their mark, a market that doesn’t question where the coin comes from or what it’s for, or some other assumedly dastardly and selfish reason.

Traders come and go. Travelers come and go. All who pass through or even live there, do so with the understanding that unless they can ensure of it with their own power, they are not safe. One needs to be good at passing unnoticed, or a quick talker, or even fast with showing a bit of coin in case they’re harried. Everyone can be expected to be there for selfish reasons. If you trust someone not to stab you in the back without something to appeal to their selfish nature, you might as well expect a knife in the back.

The city does not care about the citizens. The citizens know the city does not care. If an individual acts in their own self-interest and ends up doing so in a way that harms another individual, no one should be expected to come to the victim’s defense. The ruling Houses and Embassy do not care about the individual. The Hubmaster does not care about the individual. The Peacekeepers will stand by and watch any conflict between citizens until the moment that it turns into a mass-combat. Squabbles between a few gangs do not disrupt the “tradepeace” as long as they start and end quickly.

That is why Andunor, the city itself, does not have laws except in the occasional word from the Hubmaster or ruling powers. But they’re not written.

Andunor does not expect loyalty to Andunor unless loyalty is in the form of taxes and citizenship. The only loyalty Andunor requires is in writs being performed, shopfronts used, the bars frequented, and the districts paying their dues.

Districts, however, are free to demand loyalty. They thrive off of it and might even need it to keep up with demands of resources. Districts have elections so the ruling Houses and Embassy can delegate the headache of menial government. The elected leaders are free to hire guards, set laws, and yes, attract loyalty in order to ensure all their citizens keep up with what is needed.

But no district has a say over what the other does. And no district has a say outside of their own borders. Any district leader can say they do, but no one is required to believe them. And if someone happens to act against the interests of a particular district, the only power the district has against them is within the bounds of the district or by hired cronies if they wish to pursue it.

Andunor does not care if someone acted against a district. One district does not care if someone acted against another district unless it actively harms an agreement, alliance, trade deal, or plan.

And of factions?

Of course, various monsters or other types will group up or tribalize. There is strength in numbers and power to it. However, such things are rarely stable. Two Houses may have a similar goal, but as soon as the goal is reached, or even in the midst of it, they have no obligation to continue the alliance. A goblin and a kobold may have an understanding that they cannot complete a writ without the aid of the other, but in the end, a goblin might be eyeing that shiny dagger on the kobold’s belt, and the kobold might be thinking of a roasted goblin thigh.

Alliances are most often seen as a hindrance. After all, why should one be held back from their nature unless it’s sufficiently self-serving? Two clans might have an agreement, but rarely do monsters or various evils align so perfectly on every single thing that it lasts too long. Raids are definitely a reason to align, but they can be a dangerous and risky operation that require planning and care, and last until the spoils are divided and the groups that made it up go back to their own holes.

Andunor is a trade city. It’s not a war city. The ruling powers care more about serving their own purposes and making money than they do about anything else. Districts want a reason to one-up others and give reason to be rewarded. Perhaps it’s rumored that if one bolsters their ruling House or Embassy’s coffers enough, they will be rewarded.

It is also said that if too many factions align as one, the ruling powers start to get uneasy. After all, who would be comfortable with a growing army in their own backyard? Who would want hundreds of evil beings suddenly finding a common purpose and who would want to risk that common purpose being toppling Freth, Claddath, and Gracklestugh? Few tyrants would look favorably on their minions suddenly getting along well. Too well. Because if they’re not fighting each other, chances are that they’re looking above them.

Andunor itself does not declare war on the surface. War is costly. It has little gain when the city itself is full of such fractured peoples. One could expect a city where every lesser citizen is cowed into subservience to do something like that, but Andunor first and foremost cares about trade and who comes to do trade. It can’t constantly be looking above when there is so much below that is seeking to drag it down, and if ever Andunor united to burn the surface of Arelith, the ruling powers could quickly expect a horde of illithid that have been watching for this moment.

Perhaps some citizens of Andunor have an undying hatred for all of surface. Perhaps some only care about a few races. Kobolds and gnomes. Drow and elves. Duergar and shield dwarves. Some might not even care at all so long as whatever that thing was, didn’t harm them. The few non-monsters who slip down to the underdark, well, who knows their story? Perhaps they truly were outcasted. Perhaps they’re simply looking for a tutor in darker arts. Perhaps they’re scanning the faces of slaves with downcast eyes, hoping to find a loved one there and willing to risk anything for it. And yes, perhaps some are there to look for a crack in the city that can be exploited.

Few care why, as long as they can either go unnoticed or pay their way somehow to ensure no one looks too closely.

But for those who are looking for a way Andunor can be targeted, they’re left at a loss.

Andunor cannot be targeted because Andunor does not care.

Despite Andunor having so many fractured parts, the wheel of Andunor keeps on turning.

Someone can target one faction or group, and do no harm to the city as a whole, because the city does not care. If some are killed or weakened, they likely would have fallen anyway. And the city is unforgiving to weakness.

But because the city does not care about some of the parts, the city recovers from loss of some of the parts.

One District can be weakened. Maybe two. Maybe even three, but for that to happen, it would mean significant effort on the part of any to try and take out three districts that do not already act as one.

But Andunor recovers. It survives. It endures.

No one in Andunor should expect to be safe. No one should give trust lightly or expect anyone to trust them. No one should think that enjoying someone’s company is reason enough for them not to turn on them when a better option presents itself. The Underdark does not show mercy. If someone is beckoned alone into a room with one exist, they should think twice. If someone is freely offered a drink, they should expect poison.

If someone sees a human that they hadn’t seen before, or a dwarf or a gnome or a halfling, their first thought shouldn’t be “this person is trying to harm the city” because the city does not care. The city will not reward loyalty, nor should someone expect loyalty. Maybe they shouldn’t care. Maybe they should think about “what can they offer me if I am right about them not being supposed to be here”. Maybe they should think “that person managed to get down here, so they must be powerful enough that they could be of use to me”.

Maybe if they see a someone suspicious (is anyone not suspicious in Andunor?) going somewhere they shouldn’t be, like snooping around the door of a House, or talking to the seneschal of a district and writing what is said, they could act. If it is in their interests.

But just anyone passing through hub and taking a look at the board… well, if someone can learn sensitive information from the public hub board, maybe the fault is of the one who posted it in the first place.

And if someone gets into a fight and loses?

Andunor doesn’t care.

Maybe their own tribe will care. Or maybe their own clan will laugh at them for being so weak, because being defeated is a shameful thing. Maybe they should have run away and hidden, because the law of the Underdark is survival, and survival has no room for things like shame or honor save for a few species or codes. Maybe their group will even strike back at the attacker if they’re a loner and it won’t bring back undue attention. But if the cost outweighs the satisfaction of revenge, if retaliation will cause more retaliation, then, well, is it worth it? Especially if it gets too big, no one wants the ruling powers to step in. Don't make a privy out of your dining room. Best to catch someone off their guard and out of the city if at all.

Maybe they can pay someone to get their attacker back. After all, there is a convenient assassin’s guild. But most likely, someone will lick their wounds and thank whatever gods they had that their life was preserved enough for them to drag themselves to safety, and they will continue to survive and endure until they are strong enough.

Whatever happens? Andunor does not care.


~~~~~



This is the Andunor I dream of and would love to play in. I'm not actually sure if it's possible. I think a large hindrance to an Andunor like this is player ego.

Players hate to lose. Players hate to start conflicts they think they'll lose. Players like the idea of having an enemy that's not in their own home. This is where big city alliances, surfacer-outing, and wars against the surface come from. On that note, players also love raids, love to feel like they're part of a whole, and love to feel included. It's a great feeling, I will admit, to feel like you're all in this together.

But that's not really healthy, funnily enough, to Andunor rp and Arelith as a whole. It means people are unwilling to turn against their friends or allies for the sake of moving forward story. This is why Andunor has felt stagnant and and buddy buddy (except for the occasional blown out of proportion wars). There is not enough little casual conflicts.

I'd rather have an Andunor that doesn't care about some random surfacer that they've never seen before because there's so much more to care about. There's political power plays, dark rituals, exploration, figuring out how to kidnap that goblin who called you a rat-lizard so you can strike the fear of your gods into them, there's money to be made and weird magic to experiment with. Drow are hunting an elf in the city? Find them first and convince them to give you a nice shiny gem so you won't give them up!

Why does everything have to be centered around the surface?

Also, for that matter, I'm a firm believer that the Skal passage to Andunor should be blocked for 10 rpr (or people who haven't played for a couple weeks or months) so we don't have sun elves running around in the hub because a new player didn't realize the full extent of where they were going.
Last edited by Eira on Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:30 pm

Andunor then was much more openly about internal conflict. Most of my early RP in Andunor was centered around the hostilities between the Devil's Table and the Sharps, on spies, backstabbery and infiltration. Much of the RP was inward focused, and in some cases drawn across racial lines very clearly. Surface conflict was the very rare time in which any unity was shown, and it would quickly dissolve into more backstabbery once the fight was over.

Andunor now is almost entirely outwardly focused. It's all about deep vs surface, and creating a 'united Andunor' that can hold its own against the surface one day even conquer it maybe. Groups that once would have had to treat very, very lightly in Andunor are now accepted with open arms as allies and spoken highly of between residents. One drow unironically spoke the words "I'm proud that Andunor is such a diverse and inclusive place" in the hub a few days back, in reference to the increased Zhentarim and Sharran presence in the city.

Andunor by its design is very much a melting pot. No matter how much you dislike *insert person/faction/race*, you will still have to share the same hub with them today, tomorrow, and every day. There's not much else to go, and really only because Saltspar is there now and actually more than just a teleport hub with a single shop like it was before. This, ironically, leans people towards tolerance and acceptance, and leads to conflicts boiling over quickly and then cooling back down quickly so that trade can resume.
I'm not going to say this isn't true, because actually from my (admittedly limited) experience I think it /is/ fairly true. Certainly at the moment Andunor seems to be in a 'lul' of internal strife.

That said I'm unconvinced that this has anything to do with the surfacer situation in Andunor. If only because not much has happened of late that would really change that, as far as I can see?
This too shall pass.

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:29 pm

It is worth keeping in mind that this type of stuff is cyclical and changes with time.

Sure, certain specific events, characters, factions and even server updates can influence these situations to varying degrees but, all in all, surface or underdark, Cordor or Andunor, it is all in a constant state of change.

To the point where I would not be surprised if, a year from now, there's a forum thread discussing how Andunor's focus on internal conflicts is stiffling its ability to change, avenues of roleplay, and allowing too much wanton pvp.


(In fact, wasn't that more or less the vibe a couple of years ago or so?)
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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by JoeKickAss » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:31 pm

You have to accept that Anundor is the only city that a full 33% of Arelith players can access. Internal strife cant last long. If for example low level kobolds are blocked from using the hub by the drow. There is only so long kobolds will log in before getting ganked and demanded to pay some kind of drow tax while doing a low level writ gets old.

Added into this is the fact that these players are all kill on sight by other races. Saltspar was raided like 2 weeks ago and Sibayad recently banned all non-humanoids. So it's not as if these races have united for OOC reasons, and seems unreasonable to think the natural IC response would be to do anything other than unite under these circumstances.

This is all an in-game and IC problem too. If humans dont want monsters to unite, they shouldnt press genocidal wars against all of them simultaneously. Humans do get questioned and attacked quite often in the underdark as a result. And there really should be more warnings for casual players.

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Gillesbreton » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:49 pm

If I recall correctly a long time ago a lot of players started to get very upset by a campaign to violently and oppressively check all non-UD races in Andunor, some of my characters still carry writs of passage, association or trade papers from that period. I wonder what would happen if a large group of UD players decided to do this once again.
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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by DM Rex » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:36 pm

Veiled threats to do roleplay aside.

We've gone over this topic to a great extent, especially now emphasizing and explaining the nature of the Peacekeepers.
Again, nothing ultimately has changed. But the ebb and flow of the factions of Andunor and their enforcement of player policies are largely permitted in most fashions that don't make it an unplayable hellscape for new characters who are explictly allowed to be down there. (No smash all goblin rules, banning outcast humans, district X has to be drow only, etc) You are allowed to do PVP, you are allowed to form and do faction conflict and resolution however it suits.

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by DangerDolphin » Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:29 pm

JoeKickAss wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:31 pm
This is all an in-game and IC problem too. If humans dont want monsters to unite, they shouldnt press genocidal wars against all of them simultaneously. Humans do get questioned and attacked quite often in the underdark as a result. And there really should be more warnings for casual players.
You can't group every human on the server together and then take action on randos with the same race for it. Humans are normal in Andunor and it's a trading city, so unless you have a specific reason to suspect that particular human, you're just harassing random traders and denizens.

Of course, there is a difference between a human hanging out in the Hub by the Peacekeepers and a human trying to follow you in stealth to your house!

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Xerah » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:05 am

They dynamic of the imbalance is actually a good and cool plot element
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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Skarain » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:24 am

We need a villian city. Not a "trade city" run by every Lolth hating Drow House that ever existed. We need a pure evil, Lolth rules here, we eat babies, and dump plastic in landfills, and eat endangers species for desert, city for EVERYONE who's good to hate and war with. But in return, we get to hate good back. In return we get to treat good as nasty as they threat us.

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Go forth and convert Ogre Trade Post into such a den of villainy and a staging point for wickedness. "Ogre Raiding Post". Start slow, eventually communicate with the DMs and get the ball rolling. I am sure you could persuade the NPCs to allow such, have it be a RP quest to your lot to earn the NPC favour and purchase/negotiate the quarters in the area for yourself and your group.

Considering that both Andunor and Saltspar are strongly trade related, while as Ogre Trade Post has connections to primarily old areas and ruined caravan stations, it makes it appear the places trade connections have seen better days. You could leverage on that and bring your patronage to the Ogres there, to allow you to start build your den of villainy.

Location has a bank, two shops, a bar, two- way portal and connect to caves leading to the surface. It is perfect to your needs.

As a tip to the surface party in the example; shout out drow, turn hostile but allow the other party to emote some. One line pvp toggle immediate engagement is lame. Also use Subdual.

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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by Skibbles » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:26 pm

Andunor is super inconsistent. I think this inconsistency is part of why everyone seems to have a very different take on what they see in its RP, and rightly so, because probably none of us have 100% playtime. Having just read through the entire thread I can say I've seen just about every scenario play out that people have said never happens - however - they totally don't happen consistently, at the same time, or sometimes more than just a few times, because ideologies usually are a little more complicated than a single issue.

I'd say that such wild inconsistency seems like a fairly realistic depiction of what such a city might be like when the creatures, probably physically incapable of being anything but greedy to their very core, who run it actually don't care about anything but lining their own pockets. If anything is wrong with Andunor, ironically, it could be that it's almost too realistic.

An additional thought has occurred to me that might explain the leniency that Andunor grants to many of its visitors. Bear with me.

My understanding of Arelith's setting is that Andunor was a trade post long before it was a city. The only reason it became populated was because there was nowhere else to go. I don't want to spell it out, since a lot of it is actually very fun to learn in game, but I think the general idea of how Andunor came to be is important to explain why it also is.

Just trying to imagine myself, or my super evil self I suppose, as the curator of my little upperdark cash farm suddenly being swamped with two massive drow houses and thousands of refugees from a cataclysmic apocalypse I may not be entirely in a position to directly repel them, but I might be able to be enough of a pain in the butt to drag out the negotiating table and draw some lines.

So the lines were drawn, and like probably a lot of us have seen at least once play out in the UD's politics, it kind of just got left there as everyone immediately went back to satisfying what they want above everyone else.

The Hubmaster only wants gold to fill his enormous subterranean swimming pool with, House Freth/Claddath are happy to practice their respective heresies while playing an invisible game against one another that's likely so layered and advanced it cannot be seen by outsiders, and most of the citizens who live there don't even want to live there but instead were forcefully driven there by way worse things below.

This means that Andunor, and it's entire populace, has nowhere to go.

They can't go down. They were just down there. It sucked. It still sucks. In fact that suck still comes up to make it suck in Andunor every now in then just to remind them that it sucks, and that at any moment it could go from suck to super suck.

They can't go up. Elves are up there, so is the Sun, and so are paladins and fifteen times the size of your populace all with their armies and weapons and magic and they can operate twenty-four hours a day while you get about eight to ten.

In essence, just like the Hubmaster trade post being swarmed with refugees and two imposing fiendish armies, choosing the path of least resistance to all parties was the best choice for survival and individual profit.

The current Andunor seems to reflect its own story, maybe not even intentionally. Those that live in Andunor could try to kill everyone that goes there, sure, but remember that this is it. Andunor is all that's left between death on the bright surface, and death (or worse) in the dark depths. Exactly how worth it is it to draw all that attention? You could answer that the comically two-dimensional manner in which many of the monster races are described in the lore would simply mean they charge directly, unquestionably, to their own death - but that's just not fun or interesting for a playerbase that by are large are exceptional at three-dimensional storytelling.

Andunor could probably make quite a bloodbath, for a while too, but if for just a moment we reconsider this under the lense that nobody respawns in this theoretical battle, and that literal horrors lurking in the depths are just waiting for the Great Beast (or Great Meal) of Andunor to get wounded, then maybe it's wiser to begrudgingly accept some random traders and unusual circumstances into their city to the best of their ability because really, at the end of the day, one wrong move and everyone in Andunor will die or be scattered in such a way that death is soon to follow.

EDIT: Oops that was submit and not preview.

Isn't this entire story of tragic unfairness part of the 'romance' of the Underdark? Nobody is living there because they want to. It's the culmination of atrocity and injustice, about divine betrayal, once powerful races reduced to crawling in the mud and being stomped on forever and ever and ever while nobody can remember even how this all came to be?

So yes - it's super unfair that the UD doesn't get to visit above, but the surface (with risk, as inconsistent as it is) get to come below. So unfair one might also say it's perfectly on point.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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DM Rex
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Re: Thoughts about non-monster/non-slave/non-outcasts casually wandering Andunor

Post by DM Rex » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:52 pm

Both sides have the ability to visit, however briefly, both sides. Any travel to the other side, or in any part of the wilderness carries inherent risk. This has been explained now to a lengthy degree by the DM Team (and even one Developer).

Two "races" with total aversion to the sun - Drow and Vampires (for a more basic self preservation reason)
The rest have sunlight aversion, all of those details are outlined in the Wiki.

Edit: Given that there are more than just two races with aversion, I've gone through the entire list as follows: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32290&p=254429#p254429

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