Surface evil PvP Observations

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Nobs » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:08 am

Playing surface evil is realy fun and ranges from the sneaky never be seen smoke and mirrors rp all the way up to the in your face open evil rp.
Its realy hard to stay sneaky about every thing but it can be done and can be a blast.
On the other side its realy easy to play open evil though extreemly hard if you actualy start to get well known for your evil deeds.

For both styles of rp and every thing in between one thing always stays true.
When we do the crime we should be willing to do the time. (Aka deal with the consequences that spawn from our actions)
Though i gues this counts for any one who plays the game that is rp Arelith.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by torugor » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:48 pm

Scylon wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:51 am
torugor wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:02 am
I also think its lame for anyone to conjure a devil lord or even a dragon to fight orcs. Think this kinds of conjurations works more like a gap in the immersion than anything else. Should at least cost XP or gold to conjure them so that it would be less likelly to be used on mudane things...but seems like people prefer to have balance on pvp than immersion.
I think there needs to be a line drawn between what the hardcore rules of pen and paper are vs fun. Lets be real, for warlocks/wizards it's fun summoning mythical creatures for fight for us. As a counter to that there is a lot of crap we can't do as casters due to limitations on the engine.
I think other than the cool factor...both dragons and fiends mainly are used as tanks. Problem is this guys are intelligent creatures with desires and power of their own...some of them as powerful as the summoner. They are not like the elementals that we summon and they have no thought...

Game-mech wise ...the monster manual is full of unintelligent creatures that could be called upon with the same power to fill the purpose of a dragon or a devil.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:35 pm

torugor wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:48 pm
Scylon wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:51 am
torugor wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:02 am
I also think its lame for anyone to conjure a devil lord or even a dragon to fight orcs. Think this kinds of conjurations works more like a gap in the immersion than anything else. Should at least cost XP or gold to conjure them so that it would be less likelly to be used on mudane things...but seems like people prefer to have balance on pvp than immersion.
I think there needs to be a line drawn between what the hardcore rules of pen and paper are vs fun. Lets be real, for warlocks/wizards it's fun summoning mythical creatures for fight for us. As a counter to that there is a lot of crap we can't do as casters due to limitations on the engine.
I think other than the cool factor...both dragons and fiends mainly are used as tanks. Problem is this guys are intelligent creatures with desires and power of their own...some of them as powerful as the summoner. They are not like the elementals that we summon and they have no thought...

Game-mech wise ...the monster manual is full of unintelligent creatures that could be called upon with the same power to fill the purpose of a dragon or a devil.
YMMV but I find it more immersion breaking that a martial can hit that same orc as hard or HARDER than a dragon.

Though I would like if we could use -a or -f to talk through the summon and RP the dynamic, I imagine some of the Dragons might be a bit lippy about being summoned.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:10 pm

General question: How many people do/have done surface evil that isn't an overt summoner of things that any good character should Kill-on-Sight?

I've got a Yuan Ti who I'm using somewhat sparingly for this, who's a full martial build and I'm super careful which bits of the server see which shape and have a whole bunch of hot-barred descriptions for different disguises in order to maintain the illusion and I fully expect to get driven to Andunor and/or slain when I get rumbled.

But whenever I hear about evil PCs having surface problems, they're usually on the PM/Fiendlock spectrum or they're associated heavily with it so like... whats the success rate for non-casting evil PCs?
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:24 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:10 pm
General question: How many people do/have done surface evil that isn't an overt summoner of things that any good character should Kill-on-Sight?

I've got a Yuan Ti who I'm using somewhat sparingly for this, who's a full martial build and I'm super careful which bits of the server see which shape and have a whole bunch of hot-barred descriptions for different disguises in order to maintain the illusion and I fully expect to get driven to Andunor and/or slain when I get rumbled.

But whenever I hear about evil PCs having surface problems, they're usually on the PM/Fiendlock spectrum or they're associated heavily with it so like... whats the success rate for non-casting evil PCs?
From a good aligned perspective on my opinion the summons are the deal breaker. Animation or demon or devil summoning I just don't know how you can accept that.

I would say the successful surface evil are the ones who are not matching around with Balors. It's more subtle and maybe begs the question is this evil? Or their evil is open to perspective and opinion. Bane is ever a good example. The Arelith Lore clearly indicates they have done a lot of tangible good in Minmir. As a result most characters seem willing to work with the banites provided they do not engage in taboo practice.

And I think any sensible character would avoid those taboos understanding that to engage in them would sacrifice their reputation.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by -stick- » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:26 pm

Evil on surface can be very fun to play, finding like minded monsters or simply manipulating the pure of hearts into some nasty stuff :) but players must remmber that what you see is what you get so i would advice those who play evil summoners or cant hide their evil marks to play at the UD

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Taerl » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:11 pm

I played a cleric/rogue of Mask a looooong time ago here. Never used summons. And she was fun to play. Got away with so much. Even broke into quarters and left notes in their chests as IC hints to what they might find to give them a clue as to who broke in. Was on the good side of so many good people. I quit playing her before she even reached lvl 24 i think. Played her for maybe 6 months dont even recall her name. She would spread rumors to new folks coming to cordor. I always expected tp be caught doing something, have a trial and to be hung or something, lol. Was fun

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:42 pm

A lot of people share your pain. My suggestion is join a faction on the surface or underdark that is militant.

As a *goblin* I have subdual on as default. This is not because I think goblins would not kill folk, but because I understand it is a game, and if we are pvping as a group then it's just cheap and it lacks ooc empathy to kill people unless necessary. I follow these rules:

1. Subdual should be a default. There are some cases for sending people to the fugue, but this is usually very large pvp 4+ v 4+ where it is so chaotic it is just unrealistic to think people can work out who is "dead" and who is "alive"
2. If you are beaten down, you should consider yourself defeated, like you have been sent to the fugue. You need to RP being almost dead, wait until fighting is over. Big pvp battles are an exception.
3. If you think it is obvious you are going to win a pvp - try and seek an RP resolution.
Last edited by JoeKickAss on Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:51 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:10 pm
General question: How many people do/have done surface evil that isn't an overt summoner of things that any good character should Kill-on-Sight?

Is there cordor law that says any random guy can kill someone based on their summons or race? Lawful people do not get lynchmobs, they tell guards, who then deal with it according to the law.

The warlock in the OP's story was not the villain. Even by cordor law, I think the five gankers could be arrested for murder, and the warlock on a lesser charge. The whole point about lawful evil (or "less overt evil") is that you can play the system and not be lynched for it, and also arrest do-gooders who might act goodly but also break the law (like for example murdering evil people on hunches).

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Exordius » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:33 pm

Ninjimmy wrote: ↑08 Feb 2021 16:10
General question: How many people do/have done surface evil that isn't an overt summoner of things that any good character should Kill-on-Sight?
While my character is not evil per say, he can and has done villainous things and can side with either the hero's or the villains depending on the situation, though he sides with evil very rarely and usually only on specific issues and only for as long as it takes to sort said issues out.

Such as the time he briefly teamed up with the Banites to hunt down and murder Andunorians on the surface regardless if they were there for hostile or peaceful reasons and not caring about the brutality shown to them though he refrained from said brutality all the same. Or finding out the name of a specific individual who had betrayed him and his friends to the drow while in the UD and sending assassins after her... though i never did find out if they actually killed her lol. All of this is unknown to almost everyone as he is careful when he does do evil stuff... and not going around with undead and or fiends is part of that.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Marsi » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:13 am

JoeKickAss wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:51 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:10 pm
General question: How many people do/have done surface evil that isn't an overt summoner of things that any good character should Kill-on-Sight?

Is there cordor law that says any random guy can kill someone based on their summons or race? Lawful people do not get lynchmobs, they tell guards, who then deal with it according to the law.

The warlock in the OP's story was not the villain. Even by cordor law, I think the five gankers could be arrested for murder, and the warlock on a lesser charge. The whole point about lawful evil (or "less overt evil") is that you can play the system and not be lynched for it, and also arrest do-gooders who might act goodly but also break the law (like for example murdering evil people on hunches).
Why would Cordor care about a warlock killed in a faraway desert island?

And which version of Cordor are we talking about? Because there have been periods of time when Cordor has actually paid to have warlocks/necromancers/werewolves hunted and killed, lol.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by godhand- » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:57 am

torugor wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:50 am
This tended to happen a lot with me because of my associations with evil groups. Best thing you do is not use openly your devilish powers. I keep telling undead users as well this. Man you have so many powers at disposal why call a devil or a undead to fight if you can get caught.

Were i using it and being seen using it...i would either use a disguise or go for aggressive towards pvp. Its not a matter of being the mustache evil guy who kills because he is evil...its about survival. Good guys want to kill bad guys when they know about them. Heck they tend to hate more devils and undeads than the orcs in the sands. So if i were using this kind of power and were discovered either i would run or go for the kill. No middle ground because for sure the guy who escaped you will call friends to kill you.

Suppose in the real world...you are an EVIL guy who likes to ...i dont know... put fire on places. You are caught on act with the gasoline and a gun by some people who obviously decide to not engage on a fight because you are psycho with a gun. You should either run or kill the witnesses. Not wait in the same place watching the fire burn. That would be stupid of you. No matter how charismatic you are...you are putting fire on buildings people will call law enforces to get you on prison.

Thats the best analogy i can make to you being spotted with a devil.
I feel like this kind of hits the nail on the head as to why they behave that way....

But there are answers to it as a few others have mentioned...
Well, you could dismiss the fiend the instant you see someone and go 100% for the bluff. "Oh, thank gods! These orcs are dabbling into yet more dangerous magic, summoning a fiend that immediately turned against them. Come! We must put an end to them before they cause more harm".
- I've done this, and people give alot of creative leeway. A similiar example: I had a succubus and i roleplayed being under its spell. The other players killed it and i pretended to "be free of its control". You'd be suprised what many players are willing to go along with for fun and inclusivity.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:44 am

JoeKickAss wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:51 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:10 pm
General question: How many people do/have done surface evil that isn't an overt summoner of things that any good character should Kill-on-Sight?

Is there cordor law that says any random guy can kill someone based on their summons or race? Lawful people do not get lynchmobs, they tell guards, who then deal with it according to the law.
So, just to breakdown my response:

a) It was Sibayad, not Cordor, and Sibayad's laws are a lot laxer on this.

b) I see you subtly sneaking race into that response and monster races is a topic that we go over a lot. I know it's a passion piece for you and your friends playing goblins, but killing monsters on sight is actually pretty standard behaviour and given their nature as literally, definitely evil as far as the general populace is concerned, they're pretty much fair game. This also applies to Undead and Devils (as in, the things being summoned "that any good character should Kill-on-Sight") so I'm fairly certain Cordor doesn't have any legal protections for monsters.

c) AFAIK (open to corrections) killing Infernalists/Animators is actually legal for citizens in Cordor because of the threat level. Also, bluntly, if there doesn't happen to be a guard online at that time you shouldn't have carte blanche to do whatever you like while other players sit and wring their hands impotently, just as a Paladin shouldn't have carte blanche to start doing whatever they want in Andunor because there isn't a suitably deputised PC online to prevent it.

And lastly D) I dunno what that has to do with my question, it's asking how far have Evil players got while not playing the incredibly visually unsubtle evil options, because I kinda think that's the issue - Surface Evil needs to be subtle like Underdark Good needs to be or else it'll get routed so summoning something like a Pit Fiend will always, inevitably lead to conflict and gank squads are usually a sign folk see you as a threat that deserves full power (i.e. they're probably not 30 or not a powerbuild)
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Skibbles » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:25 am

I'm not sure I see a problem here, because it appears to be fairly in line with Newtonian cause and effect (equal and opposite reactions), and this sort of interaction is by no means limited to the Surface.

Remember that on Arelith it is absolutely required and assumed that all Warlocks have fully agreed to their pacts and that none happen by accident. This means that it's very fair to just blatantly assume that any warlock has literally ritually sacrificed innocent people, or something of similar gravity, to get where they are upon first catching them. It's not particularly relevent if that is the exact nature of the Warlock in question, but it's probably going to be close enough that a judge and jury of peers isn't going to be required.

Therefore it can be considered that summoning a devil is an extreme cause, which is likely to be met with an extreme effect.

I would suggest that if a more nuanced effect is sought, then establishing a more nuanced cause is going to be needed first.

Using the more personable traits of the Warlock sounds far more appropriate towards this end. Instead of going out solo, hang out near the writ giver and see if you can snag a person or two and then talk to them during the course of the journey - without Lucey Mcbabyeater with you. Humanize the character with discussions of backstories or mutual interests or whatever might make their charisma really shine - eventually you'll know if the company you keep will be more ammendable to the occult art of conjuring raw evil.

Or... who knows. Maybe a boss battle doesn't go the right away and then out comes Lucey Mcbabyeater to save a life or two and then suddenly things become very gray and philosophical (it's far more difficult to organize the murder of someone you've come to know than a complete and blatantly evil stranger you just met) which I would assume is the essence of playing evil on the surface.

Shining charisma and winning personality, however, are perceived as wickedly corruptive and highly manipulative if a bad first impression is made. In other words it's much easier to talk yourself out of trouble if you aren't caught red handed in the first place.

If you can't find a party, such as a being in a bad timezone or something, there's always donning your favorite black robe and wizard hat and doing all the black ritual shenanigans in the Underdark for your playtime before heading back topside in more favorable hours.

Jumping to PVP everyone just met on the off chance they'll report the encounter, I would argue, is not the right answer.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Skarain » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:58 am

Henchmen are also an option in present day world. Warlocks are high CHA so have innately a good bonus for it. A little bit of gear and you should have access to a good number of them, more if invest in Leadership.

Again, since summoning ultimate evil is seen much more evil than weird energy beams.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:39 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:44 am

b) I see you subtly sneaking race into that response and monster races is a topic that we go over a lot. I know it's a passion piece for you and your friends playing goblins, but killing monsters on sight is actually pretty standard behaviour and given their nature as literally, definitely evil as far as the general populace is concerned, they're pretty much fair game. This also applies to Undead and Devils (as in, the things being summoned "that any good character should Kill-on-Sight") so I'm fairly certain Cordor doesn't have any legal protections for monsters.

c) AFAIK (open to corrections) killing Infernalists/Animators is actually legal for citizens in Cordor because of the threat level. Also, bluntly, if there doesn't happen to be a guard online at that time you shouldn't have carte blanche to do whatever you like while other players sit and wring their hands impotently, just as a Paladin shouldn't have carte blanche to start doing whatever they want in Andunor because there isn't a suitably deputised PC online to prevent it.


Goblins? It has nothing to do with monster races. Dwarves are not just short humans, deurgar are not just dwarves with a different skin colour and elves are not just thin humans.

You can't just gank citizens or people you think are enemies of Cordor. If someone was summoning devils you would need to prove it, and he would need to go through the legal system for that to happen. Even if they were in Sibayad, my dwarf that was in the guard would have 100% used the incident as a justification to search all of them. He would certainly have stopped them in Cordor, he'd have give them a sinister name like "the Sibayad six", follow them with his weapon unsheathed and basically openly refer to them as yobs constantly reminding them that "this ain't yer Sibayad" and "ah heard what ye did in Sibayad and ahm no fan of your kind of justice".

If I recall, somone was arrested for attacking an undead summoner in the few weeks I was in the guard.
Marsi wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:13 am

Why would Cordor care about a warlock killed in a faraway desert island?

And which version of Cordor are we talking about? Because there have been periods of time when Cordor has actually paid to have warlocks/necromancers/werewolves hunted and killed, lol.
All citizens have rights.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm

JoeKickAss wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:39 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:44 am

b) I see you subtly sneaking race into that response and monster races is a topic that we go over a lot. I know it's a passion piece for you and your friends playing goblins, but killing monsters on sight is actually pretty standard behaviour and given their nature as literally, definitely evil as far as the general populace is concerned, they're pretty much fair game. This also applies to Undead and Devils (as in, the things being summoned "that any good character should Kill-on-Sight") so I'm fairly certain Cordor doesn't have any legal protections for monsters.

c) AFAIK (open to corrections) killing Infernalists/Animators is actually legal for citizens in Cordor because of the threat level. Also, bluntly, if there doesn't happen to be a guard online at that time you shouldn't have carte blanche to do whatever you like while other players sit and wring their hands impotently, just as a Paladin shouldn't have carte blanche to start doing whatever they want in Andunor because there isn't a suitably deputised PC online to prevent it.


Goblins? It has nothing to do with monster races. Dwarves are not just short humans, deurgar are not just dwarves with a different skin colour and elves are not just thin humans.

You can't just gank citizens or people you think are enemies of Cordor. If someone was summoning devils you would need to prove it, and he would need to go through the legal system for that to happen. If the gankers were helmites, my dwarf that was in the guard would have complained to the Helmite chancellor at the time. If they were in Sibayad, my dwarf would have used the incident as a justification to search all of them. I would certainly have stopped them in Cordor, I'd have give them a sinister name like "the Sibayad six", follow them with my weapon unsheathed and basically openly refer to them as yobs reminding them that "this ain't yer Sibayad".
Fair enough, the goblins thing is from reading the Feedback thread so I associated that, my B on the assumption.

But the gap here is circumstance - ganking someone you think summons devils in the middle of the street out of nowhere is a little different from ganking someone who has just summoned and is clearly commanding a devil.

I mean... to bring it down to Andunor again, if a surface elf started strolling around in the open with a Hound Archon in tow uncollared, I wouldn't expect the Andunorians to wait for the Peacekeepers to dispatch someone and leave the surface elf be until they can be handled by the "proper" authorities.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:19 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm
I mean... to bring it down to Andunor again, if a surface elf started strolling around in the open with a Hound Archon in tow uncollared, I wouldn't expect the Andunorians to wait for the Peacekeepers to dispatch someone and leave the surface elf be until they can be handled by the "proper" authorities.
if the elf was in Anundor, in my experience, he would not be ganked. There would be questions asked and a lot of people would be interested but I am not sure the story would play out like the OP. If he started saying stuff like "Drow are cursed and weak", he'd be killed.

More to the point, the OPs story probably should be the norm in Anundor, but it is the norm on the surface. People I play with don't do it in Anundor because oocly it is just cheap and a nasty thing to do.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:47 pm

JoeKickAss wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:19 pm

if the elf was in Anundor, in my experience, he would not be ganked. There would be questions asked and a lot of people would be interested but I am not sure the story would play out like the OP. If he started saying stuff like "Drow are cursed and weak", he'd be killed.

More to the point, the OPs story probably should be the norm in Anundor, but it is the norm on the surface. People I play with don't do it in Anundor because oocly it is just cheap and a nasty thing to do.
I've not done much Andunor play but I would 100% expect someone who's mid-levels to fetch some friends if a dude started strutting around with a celestial in tow in order to make sure they don't just get shredded by a higher level.

I'm not pro-gank squad but I am pro-reaction to stimuli, like... walking around with undead/devils on the surface is kinda like waving a flag saying "I'm looking for PvP" because anyone who sees you HAS to have a reaction to that and it's so powerfully evil in universe that, if you're good, it's kind of set for you.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:08 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:47 pm
I've not done much Andunor play but I would 100% expect someone who's mid-levels to fetch some friends if a dude started strutting around with a celestial in tow
Maybe but Anundor is not held up, by either the DMs or the playerbase, as an all-powerful bastion of freedom where your rights will be protected by divine religious orders and a powerful king.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:13 pm

JoeKickAss wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:08 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:47 pm
I've not done much Andunor play but I would 100% expect someone who's mid-levels to fetch some friends if a dude started strutting around with a celestial in tow
Anundor is not held up, by either the DMs or the playerbase, as an all-powerful bastion of freedom where your rights will be protected by divine religious orders and a powerful king.
I mean... nor are the deserts of Sibayad, my guy.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:27 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:13 pm

I mean... nor are the deserts of Sibayad, my guy.
Fine, let's ignore the basic ooc courtesy of getting an army to kill one guy because he summoned 1 summon which is an unbelievably petty thing to do.

Your whole argument is just nonsense. Civilised Paladin Knight of Good clearly has different standards on what is morally right and behave differently than an illiterate Hobo Sewermonster of Evil from the underdark. Yet you are arguing that because some old clerk never wrote something in Sibayadi law, they actually behave the same. It's just that Civilised Paladin Knight of Good hate devils and illiterate Hobo Sewermonster of Evil hates celestials. Other than that, they basically do the same stuff.

That's my exact annoyance here, and the fact ooc courtesy is ignored to push this is my annoyance with Arelith more broadly.

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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Eira » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:35 pm

JoeKickAss wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:19 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm
I mean... to bring it down to Andunor again, if a surface elf started strolling around in the open with a Hound Archon in tow uncollared, I wouldn't expect the Andunorians to wait for the Peacekeepers to dispatch someone and leave the surface elf be until they can be handled by the "proper" authorities.
if the elf was in Anundor, in my experience, he would not be ganked. There would be questions asked and a lot of people would be interested but I am not sure the story would play out like the OP. If he started saying stuff like "Drow are cursed and weak", he'd be killed.

More to the point, the OPs story probably should be the norm in Anundor, but it is the norm on the surface. People I play with don't do it in Anundor because oocly it is just cheap and a nasty thing to do.
"There is an elf, let's all go kill them!" Is very common in Andunor UNLESS the player is very obviously new to Arelith and accidentally got down there, but even then, they're usually enslaved or sacrificed if not given a semi-OOC driven way back to the surface.

It's very few elves who have been accepted in Andunor, and all of them started out as slaves.

Good is not supposed to be tolerant.

Evil generally has more leeway because it's down to personal care. Some orog might not actually care if a celestial is down there if there's no way to benefit from caring about it, and if it's not directly threatening them.

It is entirely possible to play an evil character with subtlety on the surface, and yes, knowing when to cut the loss and vacate the area when your Literal Epitome Of Evil is witnessed dogging your heels like your best friend, is part of that.

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Ninjimmy
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by Ninjimmy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:46 pm

JoeKickAss wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:27 pm

Fine, let's ignore the basic ooc courtesy of getting an army to kill one guy because he summoned 1 summon which is an unbelievably petty thing to do.

Your whole argument is just nonsense. Civilised Paladin Knight of Good clearly has different standards on what is morally right and behave differently than an illiterate Hobo Sewermonster of Evil from the underdark. Yet you are arguing that because some old clerk never wrote something in Sibayadi law, they actually behave the same. It's just that Civilised Paladin Knight of Good hate devils and illiterate Hobo Sewermonster of Evil hates celestials. Other than that, they basically do the same stuff.

That's my exact annoyance here, and the fact ooc courtesy is ignored to push this is my annoyance with Arelith more broadly.
Alright, I'm happy to leave behind the manners part of it because, while I don't agree with gank squads, I do understand why someone would attempt self preservation and I can't fault someone being intimidated to take on what could well be a much higher level opponent who you are alignment obligated to do something about and arguing how far you can bend the code if the person you've found isn't even attempting to give you an out is gonna tie everyone up in knots.

My argument is that Good aligned characters are opposed to Evil and Evil aligned characters are opposed to Good so if you go to what is widely viewed as their home turf the onus is on you to ensure you aren't fighting against overwhelming odds if that's your desired outcome and you should expect that overwhelming odds fight to be what you get.

I can't tell what your argument here is beyond "Evil PCs should not have to face consequences from non-settlement authorised characters because the law shields them, regardless of what they are doing and where" (I'm sure that isn't your actual stance because it's completely nonsensical, but that's how it's coming across so far)

The OOC courtesy in this needs to be a two-way street - people are going to play characters who will fight someone who's committing (IC) mortal sins of the most heinous nature, if you don't want to fight them and/or all their friends, then you gotta at least TRY and give them a reason not to.
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Re: Surface evil PvP Observations

Post by JoeKickAss » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:13 pm

OOC courtesy is not really a two-way street. If you have a ganksquad, and it is clear you are going to win, you hold all the cards as to how the story will unfold.

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