Surface evil PvP Observations

[Ninjimmy]

The OOC courtesy in this needs to be a two-way street

OOC is not really a two-way street. If you have a ganksquad, and it is clear you are going to win, you hold all the cards as to how the story will unfold.

You snipped the part afterwards where I said you need to give them a reason to think they don't need a ganksquad. That's what I mean by a two-way street.

[Skibbles]

The only RP someone can control is their own, and it's usually unfair as a player to demand that everyone else conform instead.

Characters are like a herd of cats when something, especially a person/place/thing that entire stories regularly revolve around, rears up - such as entities that do the cosmological equivalent of dragging people's eternal souls through cheese graters to power their pepperjack war for domination of the dairyverse.

This seems like pretty regular stuff and I don't understand the anger. This is straight from the wiki:

If characters can be judged by the company they keep, then those who deal with Fiends - demons and devils - are surely evil beings themselves. Fiends are the ultimate expression of evil given animate form: literally evil incarnate. Destroying a Fiend is always a good act. Allowing a Fiend to exist, let alone purposefully summoning or helping one, is clearly evil.

Destroying a Fiend is always a good act, and even just allowing one to exist is actually evil; meaning if you have the means to banish such a thing and you don't - your soul is now possibly stained. For a paladin, or some clerics, or anyone with aversion to two story tall cheese graters, this is catastrophic.

I get that everyone wants to grind some XP and be left alone or have everyone bend around it for the general fun of it all - but again it's utterly impossible to expect this when purposefully performing one of the greatest moral crimes in the entire universe. This isn't pickpocketing or shoplifting where there's plenty of room for moral philosophy. This is fundamental corruption of the souls of you and maybe everyone around you.

The only person who can truly control this is the player.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

all i'm getting from this is we need more diverse summons with more levels of moral ambiguity to them

[LIAR LIAR]

It would, however, be in good faith for these people to offer a way out for the warlock, independent of the statement that allowing fiends to exist is evil. A player should be given the option to walk away from PvP, always. And if you're given that out, you better abandon your grind if you don't want PvP.

[Ninjimmy]

Yeah someone suggested it earlier as dismissing the fiend and being all "Oh it was chasing me, thank goodness it wore out" or having it attacking the new arrival and taking it down together, both of which seem like good methods to me.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Yeah, this sounds a lot like metagaming to me. The fact they were nice to you and then 5-10 minutes later are rounding up the troops stinks of PvP blood thirst. I personally don't play "good" characters, aiming for more middle ground (or grey) choices.

That isn't metagaming. Blood thirst can be IC, wanting to kill a warlock can be IC, and wanting not to be smashed by someone you are afraid of can be IC. Metagaming is taking out-of-character knowledge in-character. Having an interaction IC that results in getting pvp'd is not automatically metagaming. PvP, deception, cowardice, running, getting help - all of this is part of roleplaying.


I've met someone IC recently who simply ran away and dismissed the fiend and then claimed it wasn't in service to them, and I was making things up, to try and protect their identity. It might not work indefinitely or even very well to begin with, but it is a possibility and I think they've been kinda fun with their fiend summoner. I don't even actually know if they're a warlock! I just know something is afoot with them, and I can't prove it. Very well-played evil summoner.

Being caught with a fiend isn't necessarily always a death sentence. But as others have stated, it's kind of like being caught in the act of murder or something. It's not something that a lot of people will let slide, it is inherently noteworthy and abnormal and dangerous by its very act. Be careful, make evil friends, and figure out contingencies, is the best advice I can give.

It would, however, be in good faith for these people to offer a way out for the warlock, independent of the statement that allowing fiends to exist is evil. A player should be given the option to walk away from PvP, always. And if you're given that out, you better abandon your grind if you don't want PvP.

This isn't a rule and isn't true. Sometimes you have no "out." RP should be given, but if you come across a paladin with a fiend and don't pull off some incredible trickery to make them think it isn't your summon somehow, that paladin is probably going to bash you in the face, or at the very least arrest you or something. PvP is RP. "Outs" are not required. Roleplaying prior to pvp is required, but an "out" is not.

[Annakist]

I've had this topic played out for 10 years now.
I have played 80%evil characters from banites, abysmally, assassins, llolth extremists, zhents. . . So on so forth. You don't pick an evil class or race to have picnics with your buddies in town. You expect resistance and respect existence as best can be balanced.
This is the allure of #teamevil or even #teamedgy.
Its a given assumption. What IS aggravating. Is the roleplay creativity. And let's call it what it is. One liners are a pvp coop outs and bad form.

If I run into evil. I wanna see depth. But its hard cause people don't care. Especially in a group. Ward once dead. Say no dead. Takes too long dead. But again thats the grey line of it all. In game actions and knowledge have in game consequences. But...
I've seen evil portrayed in such a way I wanted to run into them again. Many times I've found those willing to even go against the mob mentality of I must win. Just.... Too give it story. Establish longevity and lasting impressions.
That, I feel is what the topic boils down too at its core.
Sure. Tossing 5 hellballs in the hub, or blowing up guldorand mountainside is mechanically possible. And fun. But then its beyond roleplay. There isn't a going back. And sets a high death standard to future ingagements.

I legit have seen it twice in my life of ten plus years with arelith. Some guy a had a problem. Real game beef. And instead of causing chaos he roleplayed walking up to punch him.. this victim was so shocked thinking it was a mechanical pvp. He roleplayed it right back! (GO FIGURE) And the town turned and watched the event. A few guards pushed to break it up with threats of violence but after a small occ of (its being rp'd please) <-----yeah that simple. Every one was role-playing emote scuffle brwal. And it was F glorious.
No one was killed. Many were injured. But the point is made.

Death and violence is 1 of thousand of options.

For the warlock ordeal it falls in the boat mate. You're a packed warlock. If people know people will treat you accordingly. Don't be afraid to ping them and occ if you feel its constant zip line death fights. I've on several occasions when coming into my certain death, I've pinged them a tell.. . . With just.."rp plz" and its lead to end days thanks and amazing story lines compliments.

If you're bringing it to the table others will too. If you want to measure swords. Peolle will absolutely oblige. Good luck!

[Scurvy Cur]

It would, however, be in good faith for these people to offer a way out for the warlock, independent of the statement that allowing fiends to exist is evil. A player should be given the option to walk away from PvP, always. And if you're given that out, you better abandon your grind if you don't want PvP.

This isn't a rule and isn't true. Sometimes you have no "out." RP should be given, but if you come across a paladin with a fiend and don't pull off some incredible trickery to make them think it isn't your summon somehow, that paladin is probably going to bash you in the face, or at the very least arrest you or something. PvP is RP. "Outs" are not required. Roleplaying prior to pvp is required, but an "out" is not.

The drunk guy's correct here.

At no point is an "out" ever something that a player is owed. There are some circumstances where giving someone an option to walk away from pvp strains character integrity past the point where it becomes a jarringly OOC breach of character; a character can (and should!) only flex so much. I've seen enough characters embrace flexibility to the point of narrative contortionism to know that, after a certain point, too much flexibility harms roleplay far more than it ever helps. An acquaintance of mine recently used a term I think applies here: "seems like a machine learning algorithm designed a character with the objective of getting a 40 RPR".

I would also add that large swathes of Arelith's playerbase are dismal at taking the outs offered to them, from personal experience.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

It would, however, be in good faith for these people to offer a way out for the warlock, independent of the statement that allowing fiends to exist is evil. A player should be given the option to walk away from PvP, always. And if you're given that out, you better abandon your grind if you don't want PvP.

This isn't a rule and isn't true. Sometimes you have no "out." RP should be given, but if you come across a paladin with a fiend and don't pull off some incredible trickery to make them think it isn't your summon somehow, that paladin is probably going to bash you in the face, or at the very least arrest you or something. PvP is RP. "Outs" are not required. Roleplaying prior to pvp is required, but an "out" is not.

The drunk guy's correct here.

At no point is an "out" ever something that a player is owed. There are some circumstances where giving someone an option to walk away from pvp strains character integrity past the point where it becomes a jarringly OOC breach of character; a character can (and should!) only flex so much. I've seen enough characters embrace flexibility to the point of narrative contortionism to know that, after a certain point, too much flexibility harms roleplay far more than it ever helps. An acquaintance of mine recently used a term I think applies here: "seems like a machine learning algorithm designed a character with the objective of getting a 40 RPR".

I would also add that large swathes of Arelith's playerbase are dismal at taking the outs offered to them, from personal experience.

It's okay to kill

[godhand-]

I would also add that large swathes of Arelith's playerbase are dismal at taking the outs offered to them, from personal experience.

There is so much truth to this that i doubt anyone wants to admit to, and it comes down to the win at all costs mentality. Noone wants anything bad to happen to their characters, no matter how small the slight..

A few months back, i was playing with a group of half-orcs. We would sit outside the half-orc camp in the jungles, or sibiyad orclands, and "Tax" anyone who came through. We'd ask for anywhere from 10 to 100 gold for people to pass. In the scheme of Arelith, absolutely nothing in terms of gold value.


I'd say 20% paid, and we even went as far as making them receipts, a signed paper granting them passage for that ingame month/year.
10% turned around and walked away.
The rest would refuse to pay, start demanding we let them past and become hostile/threaten us....

We even got accused of PvP mongering. The funny thing is, we never hostiled other players first. We had a rule if PvP went down, always let them have the first move so they didn't feel like we rushed it.


TL;DR
Giving people an out is an ooc curtesy, and should be done within reason. Most people are oblivious to taking it.

[Echohawk]

A few months back, i was playing with a group of half-orcs. We would sit outside the half-orc camp in the jungles, or sibiyad orclands, and "Tax" anyone who came through. We'd ask for anywhere from 10 to 100 gold for people to pass. In the scheme of Arelith, absolutely nothing in terms of gold value.

You were patrolling the Mound with epic level characters picking on people trying to do their writs. I was one of your victims. And it didn't seem like any fun at all. So pack in whatever 'kind alternative' vibe you thought you were giving people.

[Morgy]

A few months back, i was playing with a group of half-orcs. We would sit outside the half-orc camp in the jungles, or sibiyad orclands, and "Tax" anyone who came through. We'd ask for anywhere from 10 to 100 gold for people to pass. In the scheme of Arelith, absolutely nothing in terms of gold value.

You were patrolling the Mound with epic level characters picking on people trying to do their writs. I was one of your victims. And it didn't seem like any fun at all. So pack in whatever 'kind alternative' vibe you thought you were giving people.

I appreciate OOC this could seem frustrating, but at the same time doing writs isn't any more of a pass to avoid danger than any other act in Arelith. RP is the number one priority here, and though I can't comment on if the RP was any good (you didn't say it wasn't), I can say that it's good to get IC outraged but not OOC frustrated at people 'highway manning' you or others.

[Ork]

I do think we have to check ourselves when we become frustrated with an "inconvenience" like the event above. Morgy is right in that access to writs isn't a guarantee, and other characters could delay our fat XP gains.

Not everyone is going to enjoy what you put out, and no everyone is going to play along with the experience- but, we all should recognize that by ignoring these encounters/experiences/consequences, we are encouraging their sort to disappear. Having a "safe" environment is a boring one.

[Arigard]

I would also add that large swathes of Arelith's playerbase are dismal at taking the outs offered to them, from personal experience.

+ this.

The OOC thing is simply often used as an expected get out of jail free card in my experience, no matter how badly a character acts in the situation. I've had characters literally insult clearly higher level characters to their faces, act tough, say they unafraid of death etc and generally instigate hostile reactions only to then complain OOC when they come because they weren't given an OOC out, or treated as a low level PC by a higher level.

RP is always what sets the tone of an encounter. If you're RPing hostility through words, generally acting tough and 'stepping up' to what is in front of you, you can't cry when they step up back, regardless of level. Being low level does not give you immunity from consequence.

Levels are also OOC information. To simply change your behavior because someone is a low level is the epitome of meta-gaming. Now, in certain situations, it's good etiquette to do so and therefore positive meta-gaming, especially when whoever is standing opposite you is being a good sport. When this happens I try to actively go out of my way to give more options to clearly lower level characters and my character actively does so and has RP i've built to explain it IG. (That he only wants to find the most testing conflict for the honor of his god).

However, when a low level character a) refuses to acknowledge you at any level, completely disregards threat, hurls insults around, or just completely blanks the entire encounter, or tries to cheese their way out of it constantly, then what IC justification is there to not react to that IC? There is none. At that point it simply becomes "my character is more important than yours", so you have to bend over backwards to accommodate me at all costs.

At the end of the day my character does not know what a 'level' is and actions IG have consequences. If a character just see someones in front of them being obtuse, difficult and generally obnoxious, or trying to pull something on them, then they will be met with an adequate IC response.

[JoeKickAss]

Let the underdark fight in cordor whenever they want and see if the discussion is the same.

[Echohawk]

Yeah I'm sure Irongron's intention on adding writs was to have high levels camp them. (And yes, the RP was garbage, but it was just enough so you squeaked by the rules, aren't you a good player!)

I can handle someone running ahead wordlessly being thirsty to get their writ done, waiting for stuff to respawn, but we're just going to have to disagree on the 'access to writs thing' since it's extremely lazy, meta excuses to PVP. It doesn't advance a narrative other than 'my character and my faction are just big jerks that really want you to retaliate later'. And it's not like I won't, I just don't see a reason to do it face to face with you further since that's your go to idea for an 'interaction'.

That off my chest,
Surface evils can be a challenge. You can either thrill in the challenge or sulk under the burden of it. Even characters that I've had that in/unintentionally turned evil/traitor/etc have that extra layer to their experiences. At some point does it drive you to more remote areas, make you more cautious, or even relegate you a bit to the Underdark. Yes. But that's a choice that I make and have to own. People that can't handle that should probably stick to goods/neutrals all in all.

[-XXX-]

Not everyone is going to enjoy what you put out, and no everyone is going to play along with the experience- but, we all should recognize that by ignoring these encounters/experiences/consequences, we are encouraging their sort to disappear. Having a "safe" environment is a boring one.

Following that logic engaging in a multi-faction scale warfare inside Cordor, taking over Skal with a warband of epic characters or playing ping-pong with hellballs in the Hub should be a perfectly acceptable behavior.

[Gouge Away]

Levels are OOC info, but we have to be honest-- when you go to a writ area you have a very good sense of the level range other players will be and you have a very good sense of what they are there to do. If you're a level 30 hanging around in a level 15 area you know OOC you'll be dictating the terms of random player encounters. You can't act like everyone's on equal footing in that circumstance-- that player is there to do a writ, you are there to get in their way and what happens from there is pretty much in your control. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend it's any other way.

It doesn't sound like anything was done wrong here and I wasn't involved either way so I'm not really talking about that example in particular. I don't think it's inherently a bad thing to go mess around where you know low levels will be, either. It can definitely be done in a way that's fun and challenging. But you can't act like the OOC power imbalance isn't part of any encounter.

[Ork]

Not everyone is going to enjoy what you put out, and no everyone is going to play along with the experience- but, we all should recognize that by ignoring these encounters/experiences/consequences, we are encouraging their sort to disappear. Having a "safe" environment is a boring one.

Following that logic engaging in a multi-faction scale warfare inside Cordor, taking over Skal with a warband of epic characters or playing ping-pong with hellballs in the Hub should be a perfectly acceptable behavior.

Yeah, see this is called a strawman argument. I -personally- would be fine with that behavior & that is acceptable when observed by a DM. Gotta follow the rules.

[torugor]

Somewhere in another post i have seen DMs and Irongron saying...Forgotten realms is a dangerous place. When you go out from the town you are living...you can find goblins, orcs, dragons, mages of great power. You can find anything.

People rob each other from the begining of mankind. Greed is one of the olderst reasons to kill of our world. Having people doing it ingame gives it a sensation of reality and danger. Maybe it is the only thing that causes good players feel the same as the Animator or the devil summoner evil guy does. The chance to go out to do a writ and dont return safelly home.

You go out and kill a lot of monsters whose Lvls are lower than you just to loot their corpses. I see no reason a high lvl character wouldnt do it to a low level character especially if his alignment allows it.

As long as there is a interaction...and role-play and it is not a repeated thing. Like every day i go to the low lvl place to kill the same guy. I think its is all ok by the 5 rules of arelith. Now if you dont want to have the danger of loosing 10 minutes recovering from your death why are you an adventurer after all?

Life is dangerous. Were there only monsters to kill outside town it would be a really boring game. Just saying.

Yeah I'm sure Irongron's intention on adding writs was to have high levels camp them. (And yes, the RP was garbage, but it was just enough so you squeaked by the rules, aren't you a good player!)

I can handle someone running ahead wordlessly being thirsty to get their writ done, waiting for stuff to respawn, but we're just going to have to disagree on the 'access to writs thing' since it's extremely lazy, meta excuses to PVP. It doesn't advance a narrative other than 'my character and my faction are just big jerks that really want you to retaliate later'. And it's not like I won't, I just don't see a reason to do it face to face with you further since that's your go to idea for an 'interaction'.

That off my chest,
Surface evils can be a challenge. You can either thrill in the challenge or sulk under the burden of it. Even characters that I've had that in/unintentionally turned evil/traitor/etc have that extra layer to their experiences. At some point does it drive you to more remote areas, make you more cautious, or even relegate you a bit to the Underdark. Yes. But that's a choice that I make and have to own. People that can't handle that should probably stick to goods/neutrals all in all.

[Arigard]

I mean sure, there are power imbalances that occur in the server. But these happen all the time, not just based on level. If i'm walking around the surface on my lone Paladin and I run into a group of 6 Drow, that's a power imbalance.

But these things are what makes the world interesting, unique and fluid, like an actual breathing world. Of course it's the job of those in a position of power to try and make any encounter interesting and more than just "Oh look, I'm going to win - therefore I shall".

It's also however the responsibility of those who are on the wrong side of the power balance to actively RP it correctly. To show fear/respect of their situation, to recognize that they are in peril and that death actually has a meaning, that they acknowledge the threat that stands before them etc etc. Players are more than capable of showing this same level of respect the powerful NPCs and areas they know they cannot handle, so why does that suddenly change the moment they know it's another player?

"Oh wow a mighty Dragon, I should possibly go out of my way to appease this being because it's clearly a creature of legend that I must respect"

vs

"Oh another Drow - yawn - I'm not afraid of you, kill me if you want, I'm going to be resurrected in 5 minutes anyway lol".

After leveling 10 characters to 30 on Arelith, I can't say i've ever experience a wave of rampant bullying of lower levels by higher levels that's been brought up in multiple threads recently. That isn't to say it isn't happening (my experience is simply anecdotal), but I was in Sibayad recently for weeks in prime times. I didn't see gangs of high level monsters/evil characters running around ganking lower levels, neither have I seen that on UD characters I've leveled recently. The majority of conflict I experienced was different leveling groups falling out, or being diametrically opposed, or simply bad luck when groups travelling somewhere ran into people by complete accident. I've not once walked into a level 15 area on any of my toons and run into a group of higher level characters actively looking to bully people as their only reason for being there. Have I experienced conflict in some of these areas? Sure, but it was always a side effect of other RP that brought that conflict to those areas that I got caught up in. You shouldn't be taking that personally.

So, personally I think this whole thing is a little bit of a storm in a teacup. It's clear when people level they get frustrated when things don't work out for them and it 'ruins' the time they have where they wanted to be getting XP. It happens, and sure, it can be annoying when you set out to get your level on that evening and then you run into a group that pushes you away, or wants to fight over the area, or something random happens, but it's very narrow minded to think "I'm going to do this tonight and if anything stops me it's going to ruin my night".

We should be remembering that the fact the world is dynamic and a living breathing world where there aren't gated areas and MMORPG mechanics is a good thing and if you give the majority of people a chance, you'll find most people want to actually RP, rather than just kill-bash relentlessly. OFC there's always bad actors in any community this big, but let's not start judging everyone in the community based on a handful of bad experiences and go into situations already on the defensive. "Oh this guys just going to cheese me", because if you start thinking like that, then you're only going to see everything through a negative light and you won't pick up on the logical reasons for why things might be happening the way they are outside of "This player is just out to get me, screw him!".

[Morgy]

I can handle someone running ahead wordlessly being thirsty to get their writ done, waiting for stuff to respawn, but we're just going to have to disagree on the 'access to writs thing' since it's extremely lazy, meta excuses to PVP. It doesn't advance a narrative other than 'my character and my faction are just big jerks that really want you to retaliate later'. And it's not like I won't, I just don't see a reason to do it face to face with you further since that's your go to idea for an 'interaction'.

People will of course go to RP places they know they will encounter others. For bandit type RP this will typically be an area where folks often come and go alone (bandits will always pick an easy target, why wouldn’t they?). It sounds like in this scenario they only demanded a few hundred gold, nothing that would case any PC any issue to obtain.

I find that you have less of a problem with people wordlessly running ahead of you to take writ objectives more baffling to be honest, given this is a RP server.
But as you say, we will have to disagree I suppose.

I very much agree with the last poster also.

[Ork]

I do think that Echohawk brings up a good point. We don't know the specific interaction. If you're going to engage in conflict roleplay in writ locations, you better DAMN WELL make it interactive, interesting, and consequential. If you're out robbing some one for kicks on a Sunday, but don't care to follow up with more of that roleplay, or provide a level of nuance that draws in characters/players - your time is better served grinding NPCs.

While YES, the forgotten realms is a dangerous place, and YES players should have no illusions that they're "safe", if you're going to do something, do it well.

[Echohawk]

I find that you have less of a problem with people wordlessly running ahead of you to take writ objectives more baffling to be honest, given this is a RP server.

I think that you mean to say that "I find it odd that you-" so I'll assume that's what you meant.

But the reason why I say it that way is because I can be inconvenienced in those sorts of ways. I don't think it's necessarily acceptable behavior, but comparing the two it does me less harm to accept 'okay this guy is going to be kind of a jerk about this' and just wait around a few minutes with nothing ultimately lost. Rather than knowing someone else was premeditating PVP on a decidedly lower level area to jam up a grind, force death effects, death timer, jar you emotionally (yeah even if you're level headed as I was, it still puts you off), and yeah it does take away whatever money you were carrying on you at the time.

Luckily for me it was only like 400g for this 100g tax they were going to impose. But for someone who might not have gone to the banker in a while? Could've been a far steeper loss, and that's just another part of the issue. Fake in game money might not be a big deal to me, but it can affect someone newer to the server with a greater cost.

[Ork]

Not to really delve into this too much, but there is something to be said for player fortitude. There are hundreds of players playing Arelith - you are going to have a bad time, at least sometimes. We, as players, really can't predict how people will receive our roleplay - and we really shouldn't. What you're talking about starts to slip into consent PvP which isn't Arelith. Players do things and characters respond.

While everyone should try to improve their roleplay and be better than lazy - if a player gets a death penalty and quits arelith over a spontaneous encounter like the above, that's their prerogative. Doesn't mean that roleplay shouldn't exist to begin with.