Surface evil PvP Observations

[Echohawk]

I mean, yes and no? You can probably assume if you're going to be an antagonist (not necessarily evil even!) then you're going to push people. I'm not saying conflict is bad. I just obviously prefer it to have weight and meaning rather than being:
- A crappy way to rob people of money.
- A way to try and pressure people to roll.
- There's probably way more petty, low rp reasons, but you can kind of fill it in from here.

Obviously there's only one person I can control in any given situation which will always be me. But antagonist or not, I hold myself to a higher standard and if I fight someone, it'll be for a reason be it politics or otherwise. That's all I'm trying to express ultimately.

[Ork]

Yeah I'd agree with that. I do think we're working with a bad example, but even the most badass conflict roleplay is going to rub some people raw.

[-XXX-]

You see, the problem here is that when somebody brings their epic character into a lowbie dungeon with the sole purpose of messing with characters that they know will be much lower level than theirs, then it's THEM who's playing it "safe".
To make things worse, they are using OOC information to ensure one-sided fun for themselves while doing it.
Do you really not see a problem with that?

It takes about one or two days of very conservative grinding to get a fully fledged character for an area like the Mound. Point being, it's fairly easy do all of the above with a level appropriate character if that kind of playstyle is what floats someone's boat. Additionally, it's not so much trouble recycling these characters after a lash back becomes too strong either.

[Arigard]

You see, the problem here is that when somebody brings their epic character into a lowbie dungeon with the sole purpose of messing with characters that they know will be much lower level than theirs, then it's THEM who's playing it "safe".
To make things worse, they are using OOC information to ensure one-sided fun for themselves while doing it.
Do you really not see a problem with that?

It takes about one or two days of very conservative grinding to get a fully fledged character for an area like the Mound. Point being, it's fairly easy do all of the above with a level appropriate character if that kind of playstyle is what floats someone's boat. Additionally, it's not so much trouble recycling these characters after a lash back becomes too strong either.

But who is actually doing this? Is this something that is legitimately happening constantly in the server? Or is it a singular/handful of bad experiences?

It's one thing if there are players out there whose only intention is to get a character to level 15, to then go push around level 5's night after night. It's another to run into a higher level completely randomly in a lower level area because they happened to be there for some reason and it just so happens it's a diametrically opposed character to yours.

The first, I would say is something that should be reported and monitored by the DMs. The second is natural RP and is something that can just happen dynamically.

[-XXX-]

But who is actually doing this? Is this something that is legitimately happening constantly in the server? Or is it a singular/handful of bad experiences?

It's one thing if there are players out there whose only intention is to get a character to level 15, to then go push around level 5's night after night. It's another to run into a higher level completely randomly in a lower level area because they happened to be there for some reason and it just so happens it's a diametrically opposed character to yours.

The first, I would say is something that should be reported and monitored by the DMs. The second is natural RP and is something that can just happen dynamically.

You're right, these are apples and oranges that require some degree of player discretion to navigate.

I still think that the instances of an epic character chasing lowbies around a lowbie dungeon as a result of natural dynamic RP are quite corner-case and they might want to consider running a quick "system diagnostic" checking what they are actually doing, why they are doing it and whether there really isn't a more interesting way of resolving the situation.



Consider the following scenario: bunch of low level adventurers run into a low level warlock. They back down from the situation, return to the town alarming a high level paladin. He then goes to pursue the warlock. Everything's great up to this point, but once the paladin catches up with the warlock, whose really responsible for finding themselves in a situation where their character might be required swinging waaay below their weight class? It's also perfectly reasonable to assume that the warlock's player is new to the server and the paladin's player might be driving them off with a poorly executed one-sided PvP encounter.
Is maintaining a character's integrity really so important that we're willing to risk driving new players off? How about considering getting lost on purpose in a place that the character has not visited for a long time instead for example?

[Nobs]

I would just pay the 100 gold to them orcs even on my level 30.

And like if your toon realy want to stop them so bad pay first then go get help to stop sutch nasty road taxers and get your 100 gold back.
Or just pay the absurdly low cost and be on my way.

[Arigard]

But who is actually doing this? Is this something that is legitimately happening constantly in the server? Or is it a singular/handful of bad experiences?

It's one thing if there are players out there whose only intention is to get a character to level 15, to then go push around level 5's night after night. It's another to run into a higher level completely randomly in a lower level area because they happened to be there for some reason and it just so happens it's a diametrically opposed character to yours.

The first, I would say is something that should be reported and monitored by the DMs. The second is natural RP and is something that can just happen dynamically.

You're right, these are apples and oranges that require some degree of player discretion to navigate.

I still think that the instances of an epic character chasing lowbies around a lowbie dungeon as a result of natural dynamic RP are quite corner-case and they might want to consider running a quick "system diagnostic" checking what they are actually doing, why they are doing it and whether there really isn't a more interesting way of resolving the situation.



Consider the following scenario: bunch of low level adventurers run into a low level warlock. They back down from the situation, return to the town alarming a high level paladin. He then goes to pursue the warlock. Everything's great up to this point, but once the paladin catches up with the warlock, whose really responsible for finding themselves in a situation where their character might be required swinging waaay below their weight class? It's also perfectly reasonable to assume that the warlock's player is new to the server and the paladin's player might be driving them off with a poorly executed one-sided PvP encounter.
Is maintaining a character's integrity really so important that we're willing to risk driving new players off? How about considering getting lost on purpose in a place that the character has not visited for a long time instead for example?

I mean in that instance, if it's a very low level warlock and obviously so (only summoning lemurs/things clearly not too powerful), if it were me I would do my best to talk the character out of the choices they were entering, to try to get them to think twice about their actions and pursuit of a pacted like "It's not too late to turn back" etc.

But then I would make it very clear that should they progress down the path my character might not show such restraint next time, if they did not change their ways and committed more deadly sins.

However, if it's a warlock walking around with a Pit Field General out, even if they are 5-10 levels lower:

- By that point they should know it's going to bring them a load of heat and be more tactful about being so open about it
- It's very difficult at that point to resolve the RP. As some have said in here, there are simply some RP paths that are almost impossible to find IC justification to navigate without some kind of hostility.

Now would I necessarily kill a lower level with a Pit Fiend? No, but I'd be almost obliged to remove the demon and 9/10 times in that situation the second you try to remove the demon, the animator is going to fight back.

I try to make it a habit to subdual rather than outright kill in the majority of situations, but even then, people still regardless of level use it as a second chance to get out of jail free. I've had people continue after, lense out, teleport away etc. So this discussion is a complicated one with lots of grey areas where often trying to show the leniency being discussed here gets thrown back in your face.

However, on both sides, going in thinking the best of people, regardless of how many times you get burnt is often the best outlook imo.

[Nitro]

Bandit RP can be cool. Often it's just "GP or HP" which is not very cool. But even if the RP is cool, camping areas way below your level range isn't very cool. No amount of justification or mental gymnastics would make a 30 imposing bandit roleplay on the bramble woods fair or fun for several reasons.

The other players can't see levels. And might rightly assume that they can try to fight a bandit in a low level area, being appropriate level themselves (And might even be outnumbering the bandit) only to get curbstomped because they never actually had a chance to begin with. And if they for some reason do know their levels, through reputation or what have you, they know full well the power disparity in a situation that seems extortionate on an OOC level because the only way out is to acquiesce to the bandits demands.

And strangely, most bandits you hear about in low level areas are way higher level than the area they're in. Almost like they want to make sure that they'll win any conflict that might arise

[-XXX-]

A bandit walking up to me and saying "Give me 50 gold or me smash your face" I would count as "good RP" relative to standards on the surface.

I can understand that that you might have had a negative experience. I could even be convinced that consistently so.
But your attitude doesn't seem very constructive here either TBH

[JoeKickAss]

But your attitude doesn't seem very constructive either TBH

I've suggested basic ooc courtesy people should follow. For whatever reason, simple rules of etiquette are just unpalatable to follow.

Here's my prediction, much like portals being blocked for surfacers in Anundor, surfacers or pvp will begin to be outrighted banned from entire areas.

[Ork]

I do think in situations where an aggressor out levels the content of a writ, I would report that behavior. Especially if the roleplay was solely as a "checked box". I'd like to think that there are some opportunities such as theft or robbery that should be encouraged/complimented when done well - but I might also be living in idealism-world & not actually a representation of current Arelith.

[Ninjimmy]

I do think in situations where an aggressor out levels the content of a writ, I would report that behavior. Especially if the roleplay was solely as a "checked box". I'd like to think that there are some opportunities such as theft or robbery that should be encouraged/complimented when done well - but I might also be living in idealism-world & not actually a representation of current Arelith.

Strongly seconded, crime RP is super hard to do just because it's so easy to act in an OOCly awful manner and we can't be supervised 24/7, all it takes is two or three epics bullying lowbies and we get quarter DCs cranked into the stratosphere and Forum threads about PvP etiquette.

[Ninjimmy]

But your attitude doesn't seem very constructive either TBH

I've suggested basic ooc courtesy people should follow. For whatever reason, simple rules of etiquette are just unpalatable to follow.

Here's my prediction, much like portals being blocked for surfacers in Anundor, surfacers or pvp will begin to be outrighted banned from entire areas. Maybe before or after an exodus of players.

How about we do the inverse? Surfacers get access to Andunor portals and PvP is banned in the area? You get to RP outside the Underdark lot and you don't have to deal with surfacer PvP, win-win right?

[godhand-]

A few months back, i was playing with a group of half-orcs. We would sit outside the half-orc camp in the jungles, or sibiyad orclands, and "Tax" anyone who came through. We'd ask for anywhere from 10 to 100 gold for people to pass. In the scheme of Arelith, absolutely nothing in terms of gold value.

You were patrolling the Mound with epic level characters picking on people trying to do their writs. I was one of your victims. And it didn't seem like any fun at all. So pack in whatever 'kind alternative' vibe you thought you were giving people.

Given none of us ever made it beyond 21 while i was still playing with the group, i cant speak for your experience and i'm sorry that its still weighing on you. When i was playing, we literally set up shop outside the peninsula portal where the ramp heads up towards the orc camp. Not patrolling the mound.

Again, i can't speak for your situation, i wasn't there but it sounds like a case of "bad things happen to good adventurers."
There is a place on this server for all roleplay, and the situations i was involved with in the half-orc group, there were at least 5 or 6 fold more encounters with no pvp than those with pvp...
Honestly, your reflective language on the situation makes you sound like a roleplay snob, Where you feel you are "above" this "low level bandit rp" - You say the RP was garbage, by jerks. If you hold yourself to a high standard, you'll roleplay your way out of the situation, rather than end up with a death penalty. But even then, sometimes that doesn't work and you'll make the situation worse; in real life, people get mugged for no reason at all, It happens in a crazy world.

I think with alot of conflict rp, especially bandit rp, most people instantly assume the person is a pvp hound and from that point the role play encounter has already been shoehorned down that one pathway.


Also very much these two posts.

It's also however the responsibility of those who are on the wrong side of the power balance to actively RP it correctly. To show fear/respect of their situation, to recognize that they are in peril and that death actually has a meaning, that they acknowledge the threat that stands before them etc etc. Players are more than capable of showing this same level of respect the powerful NPCs and areas they know they cannot handle, so why does that suddenly change the moment they know it's another player?
........
We should be remembering that the fact the world is dynamic and a living breathing world where there aren't gated areas and MMORPG mechanics is a good thing and if you give the majority of people a chance, you'll find most people want to actually RP, rather than just kill-bash relentlessly. OFC there's always bad actors in any community this big, but let's not start judging everyone in the community based on a handful of bad experiences and go into situations already on the defensive. "Oh this guys just going to cheese me", because if you start thinking like that, then you're only going to see everything through a negative light and you won't pick up on the logical reasons for why things might be happening the way they are outside of "This player is just out to get me, screw him!".

I do think we have to check ourselves when we become frustrated with an "inconvenience" like the event above. Morgy is right in that access to writs isn't a guarantee, and other characters could delay our fat XP gains.

Not everyone is going to enjoy what you put out, and no everyone is going to play along with the experience- but, we all should recognize that by ignoring these encounters/experiences/consequences, we are encouraging their sort to disappear. Having a "safe" environment is a boring one.

[JoeKickAss]

The orc thing seems okay, but I am not sure of the exact details of what transpired. It did happen outside "the half-breed camp" after all.

PCs are players not AI controlled mobs. If you hunt players you need to be willing to engage with them meaningfully, be prepared to lose, talk to them and build a rivalry, and at the very least hint why you are after them. Give players a route in to your story. If your character "does not engage with good/evil/x/y/z because he's evil/good/x/y/z", you should seek pvp in big faction wars, act reactively to other players being aggressive and stick to killing NPCs.

In terms of what devs can do. Make beat downs the default and maybe work out a way to keep people down in pvp without being healed by an ally.

[DangerDolphin]

I think if someone is asking for 100 GP it's pretty obvious they're interested in doing bandit RP with you and not actually taking gold from you, because that's nothing. Even a level 2 off the boat has 10 times that amount available. Before considering level differential, consider that first: They are sending a clear OOC message that they want RP and are not here for profit - they would be out grinding otherwise.

With regard to writ areas and low levels in other situations, such as level 30 pally catches warlock levelling with demon out, consider that you're essentially in the Boris Johnson tackling a 10 year old situation. Unless you're inept, you can very easily PK the warlock, but this doesn't add anything to their story, your story, or the server narrative.

While it may be in character for you to cut them in two, it's also perfectly in character to assume the demon isn't a summon and is trying to kill them, so you're slaying it to help them. Even if you don't go for this strategy, there's a multitude of other solutions, such as roleplaying your crappy 8 Dex means you trip over on your way to slice them in two, or your armor is weighing you down as you try to follow.

I realise that roleplaying any kind of weakness is anathema to most people, because they need to have a mental image of being a badass who would never be robbed of 100 GP, and would never trip over their feet chasing a warlock, but these things do make for an interesting story. You have a responsibility on this server beyond the letter of the very simple rules laid out by the DM team to provide a fun environment to everyone else. Otherwise why are we even on a roleplay server? You may as well go play a MOBA.

[Morgy]

While it may be in character for you to cut them in two, it's also perfectly in character to assume the demon isn't a summon and is trying to kill them, so you're slaying it to help them. Even if you don't go for this strategy, there's a multitude of other solutions, such as roleplaying your crappy 8 Dex means you trip over on your way to slice them in two, or your armor is weighing you down as you try to follow.

I realise that roleplaying any kind of weakness is anathema to most people, because they need to have a mental image of being a badass who would never be robbed of 100 GP, and would never trip over their feet chasing a warlock, but these things do make for an interesting story. You have a responsibility on this server beyond the letter of the very simple rules laid out by the DM team to provide a fun environment to everyone else. Otherwise why are we even on a roleplay server? You may as well go play a MOBA.

All this stuff is so true. That's how I handle vs lower levels most of the time. It's much funner and brings people back for more, generally.

[Ninjimmy]

I think if someone is asking for 100 GP it's pretty obvious they're interested in doing bandit RP with you and not actually taking gold from you, because that's nothing. Even a level 2 off the boat has 10 times that amount available. Before considering level differential, consider that first: They are sending a clear OOC message that they want RP and are not here for profit - they would be out grinding otherwise.

I think this holds true provided the bandit or whoever is also OK with eating an L, i.e. being tricked or otherwise bluffed around to avoid paying or perhaps the consequences of mugging someone stronger than expected. The guys being mugged need to be ready for it but so do the guys doing the mugging. If the Paladin trips over to give them an out, the Warlock best take that chance to flee and emote panicking not start unloading dysjunctions and time stops.

(I'm 99% sure that this is just stating the obvious and it should be inferred from the rest of the post but just in case it needed adding I'm saying it)

[Xarge VI]

I definitely agree that going to lowbie areas expressly looking for PvP combat is bad form.

However I think the conversation is more complicated as areas in Arelith are thematic. A good example are the jungles. I think it would be unreasonable to expect a Maztican bloodcultist to choose another place for their evil rites just because they've outgrown the area's level.

Another aspect is that with portals everywhere you can find very few people in the wilds who aren't there to level up. Often I haven't even had a chance to say as much as 'Hello' before people have already zoomed past. Or the answers are hasty and anxious to move on.

What I think I'm trying in my incoherent way to communicate is that there are many beautiful corners in Arelith that are begging to be used as stages for grand stories, but there is also an unwritten rule going on that you shouldn't bother people that are trying to level up. This imo is not healthy culture as it puts the mechanical side of the game before the rp side. It also impresses the phenomenon that rp happens in cities and locked quarters.

Bad rp is bad rp, regardless of the area and level. Generally the main difference between bad rp and good rp is intention.
Idk rp for others not yourself and you create a story for yourself. [Picture a generic motivational background, a river or a sunset or both]

[JoeKickAss]

, but there is also an unwritten rule going on that you shouldn't bother people that are trying to level up.

I dont think that's the point here. Point is more whoever you are pvping, just try to have some fun interacting and make it fun for them. PvP is a tool to do that.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

I definitely agree that going to lowbie areas expressly looking for PvP combat is bad form.

However I think the conversation is more complicated as areas in Arelith are thematic. A good example are the jungles. I think it would be unreasonable to expect a Maztican bloodcultist to choose another place for their evil rites just because they've outgrown the area's level.

Another aspect is that with portals everywhere you can find very few people in the wilds who aren't there to level up. Often I haven't even had a chance to say as much as 'Hello' before people have already zoomed past. Or the answers are hasty and anxious to move on.

What I think I'm trying in my incoherent way to communicate is that there are many beautiful corners in Arelith that are begging to be used as stages for grand stories, but there is also an unwritten rule going on that you shouldn't bother people that are trying to level up. This imo is not healthy culture as it puts the mechanical side of the game before the rp side. It also impresses the phenomenon that rp happens in cities and locked quarters.

Bad rp is bad rp, regardless of the area and level. Generally the main difference between bad rp and good rp is intention.
Idk rp for others not yourself and you create a story for yourself. [Picture a generic motivational background, a river or a sunset or both]

Thank you for saying this Xarge, because it's been on my mind for a while now, and even more so after reading through this thread and a few others.

My favorite type of character to play, and favorite style of rp, has always been the wandering around, bumping into people kind. Where you set out with only vague goals, and the main idea is to save/harass/interact with people you run into.

This was very easy to do 10 years ago, when playing my wild elf stealther.

It was still cool to do with Borin some four years ago, but it was already shifting, with too much ooc noise creeping in.

It was near impossible with my last attempt at a main character, a knight errant type of guy.


And it's been proving the same with my current UD character. The amount of people running past at full tilt, with summons and henchmen, to try and complete writs, just drains the joy of exploration all together most of the time, and crushes all hope of meaningful, spontaneous rp, which used to be a given on Arelith.

Perhaps that's the preference now a days, but I'd rather go play a singler player rpg for that.

And, I know this is a derailement from the original topic, yet it's not a coincidence that the discussion drifted in this direction. These issues are connected at a deep level, and are a reflection of what the expectations towards the server and its playerbase are, and how they may have shifted with time.

Which in and of itself is natural, and I don't want to be the old man yelling at the kids playing outside, but I do think it is still worth pointing out and adressing.

[torugor]

You see, the problem here is that when somebody brings their epic character into a lowbie dungeon with the sole purpose of messing with characters that they know will be much lower level than theirs, then it's THEM who's playing it "safe".
To make things worse, they are using OOC information to ensure one-sided fun for themselves while doing it.
Do you really not see a problem with that?

It takes about one or two days of very conservative grinding to get a fully fledged character for an area like the Mound. Point being, it's fairly easy do all of the above with a level appropriate character if that kind of playstyle is what floats someone's boat. Additionally, it's not so much trouble recycling these characters after a lash back becomes too strong either.

Its not using ooc information. Its how anyone in the real world and in character would think.
Do you think robbers go rob in front of a military outpost or do you think they are more likelly to go rob old ladies in front of a unguarded bank?

If my character is a robber and he wants to maximize his gains, he will think IC on where did i use to go when i didnt know how to fight well? Where did i used to go empty coined and leave with purse full of gold when i didnt know how to fight well....hmmm...there is the spot!

Its not meta-game its ingame knowledge your character gained. And muggers want to mug people weaker than them. Of course! Its a risky business to go out to rob people. And it is even worse if they get caught or recognized because they will be targets of law enforcers from then on.

So its not a non-risk scenario for neither. If Pcs think a place is too dangerous they go training another place. Man for every level of arelith there is at least 6 writs active to be taken. And you can go in groups for protection instead of grinding alone.

Problem is you are thinking on a "This guy killed me because he is a bully". But the same right you have to play a lawful good paladin who respects the law and want to be a symbol of justice...and when you see a demonist you feel the right to kill him no matter his level. There is people who wants to play evil robbers capable to rob, kill and are greedy and dont bother killing weak people in a coward way. Its another roleplay as valid as the lawful good paladin.

Every good tale needs a villain. Being the antagonist is much harder than being the hero. If you were a victim...be a victim. Accept your character is not that powerful. Roleplay your victim and make your character go for an arch where he better himself to protect others from that muggers. Join soldiers...dont know. But its not against the rules and neither should be.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

With regard to writ areas and low levels in other situations, such as level 30 pally catches warlock levelling with demon out, consider that you're essentially in the Boris Johnson tackling a 10 year old situation. Unless you're inept, you can very easily PK the warlock, but this doesn't add anything to their story, your story, or the server narrative.

cant believe im finding out about this from this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5NN5S9sPFM

Personally have zero problem with level 30s trying to do antagonist RP in places like Brambles with some caveats-
make it interactive - let the other player have choices in what they can do
give outs - have one of those choices being able to escape PVP
make it unique - don't do it repetitively for the purpose of ganking lowbies
be self-aware - understand that you are still in effect ganking lowbies
and in most cases, make it quick - try not to be a burden on the people that are just mindlessly grinding by getting in, doing your thing, and then getting out without lingering around forever

[Gouge Away]

Personally have zero problem with level 30s trying to do antagonist RP in places like Brambles with some caveats-
make it interactive - let the other player have choices in what they can do
give outs - have one of those choices being able to escape PVP
make it unique - don't do it repetitively for the purpose of ganking lowbies
be self-aware - understand that you are still in effect ganking lowbies
and in most cases, make it quick - try not to be a burden on the people that are just mindlessly grinding by getting in, doing your thing, and then getting out without lingering around forever

Yeah that's all good advice.

I don't think anything should be off the table and if you want to go to a lowbie area to provoke some RP that's fine but that's going to be your show not theirs. You can be cool, do it with some humor or some other way to suggest "we're all having fun here" and it will probably go over well. Could even send a tell to say hey to the other player if that's your style (I understand if it isn't.)

But if you come in threatening and make them feel like your motivation is to be a bully or a troll, you'll get the result you deserve. Nobody likes to feel bullied or harassed and a lot of us get defensive real quick in those situations because of past RL or other online experience. But it's amazing what lightening the mood with a little humorous detail even in the most tense encounter can do to put the other side at ease.

[Aelipse1]

Interesting. I have been playing a surface warlock for almost two years now and I have always considered the hostility towards my character to be normal, even reasonable.

As has been mentioned before, be secretive. Don't flaunt your powers openly. On many occasions have I joined a party under a pretence of being a healer or a commoner just to avoid having to use my eldritch blast or even a summon. Warlocks being as powerful as they are, I think the risk of being spotted by a third party while soloing a difficult area is the most thrill they can get.

As to the "evil RP", I too have an issue with killing characters that I (OOC) deem innocent. The way to go about it in my experience is to provoke them to start a PvP, not start it yourself. If you play by this rule, all kills you make will be literal self defence and the players you fought went into the fight willingly.