Surface evil PvP Observations

[Arienette]

After three years on Arelith, I have lately been playing my very first Evil Surface character. Quite different and interesting. However, I have observed something that I thought might be worth discussing. First let me say I'm not calling anyone out or complaining. I have, on characters in the past, done the very thing that I am now irritated with. Not having played a Surface Evil character until now, I didn't truly see the other side of the coin.

Here is the situation. My character is an Infernalist Warlock. As far as LE goes, she is relatively personable. Charismatic, friendly, unfailingly polite. Not particularly bloodthirsty.

I will be adventuring in some well-trafficked area, say Orclands. I bump into some random lone character. They act a bit shifty about my Summoned Devil. I try to be friendly, invite them to join forces. They say something like "oh, no thanks, you go ahead," and they leave. Quite an understandable reaction.

Now at this point, as a PC, I know the other character is likely good-aligned and weirded out by my characters whole vibe. But the last thing I want to do is be like "I am EVIL and I suspect you are GOOD. Die!" and commence PvP. So off they go, probably back to the nearest settlement.

But here is what happens next. 5-10 minutes later that character returns with 4-5 buddies explicitly to kill me or run me off. Or some other group comes saying "We just had a report of fiend-lovers in the area, looks like we have found you!" with the same result. I have also at times revised my disguise, entered the nearest settlement, and seen the character I interacted with talking to the guards about me, and starting to round up a gank squad.

You see the problem. This has happened so many times now that IC my character is pretty much fed up. The only thing preventing me from just PvPing everyone I come across who refuses to join up with me is the fact that I don't want to be a jerk OOC. Also in this regard, I believe doing so might even be perceived against the rules. "Differences in alignment are not grounds for PvP" or something like that if I recall correctly from the Wiki.

Sorry for the ramble; Other players who have experienced this, any advice on how to handle this without ending up looking like am murder-hobo?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

A few suggestions,

a) the summoning of a fiend (particularly the powerful types a warlock can get) is such an extreme moral sin in the eyes of any good-aligned character that in almost no circumstance are you going to be without consequence.

b) gank-squads are inevitability and to be expected. If you approach roleplay knowing this will eventually happen, you can prepare for it, and not be so surprised.

c) because of how Evil (and Good) have played out over the years in Arelith, there is a very strong idea among many, many factions of "uniformity."

That is, attacking 1 fiend warlock is like attacking the other 2 fiend warlocks that you know about. Going after 1 Sharran is like going after 2 different Sharrans + their friends.

I am not sure if it is exactly similar in the realm of Good, largely because Good gets to play with settlements more creatively (there IS a distinction between fighting the Shields of Guldorand vs. the Radiant Heart vs. the Cordorian Guard).

This is really why playing Evil is the most difficult. Everything is guilt by association because Evil cannot actively be forthright in the play-space and has to be secretive to survive, but that secretiveness means that Evil forces all get lumped up together.

Which could mean, you being victim of a gank-squad might be how that group of characters feels they need to combat an Evil faction you may/may not be a part of. They don't know.

It's really difficult. Characters in the Good camp I think (unbeknownst to them) have a really, really huge burden beyond Cooperative Victimhood - how to make the setting fun for the other side of the aisle.

Simultaneously, a lot of Evil (unfortunately) is cosmic Evil. So while I would love to find some kind of "uh hey guys, this guy isn't so bad, let's get along" the presence of LITERAL FIENDS makes the setting really, really cumbersome. Really difficult to navigate.

Because you hop on the forums/Discord/wherever and we get into a shouting match of how BANITES LITERALLY WANT BANE TO RULE THE WORLD and then you jump IC and go,

"how on earth is this ever not going to end violently"

copy paste any of the examples with Shar/drow/duergar/infernalists/etc.

[DM Rex]

I will be monitoring this thread intently. Please avoid any specific names or scenarios as best we're able, as such either is an interaction that should remain in game, or a rulebreak that should be reported. This is a forewarning since it can be a volatile subject.

[DangerDolphin]

I agree this kind of RP is dull and uninspired. But running about on your own with a summon demon is really dangerous and obvious. You could try adventuring in less busy areas if you just want to solo, or find a group that doesn't mind your fiend via RP. You could also make for a portal when someone comes across you and won't join you, you probably have 10-15 minutes until they rally a mob.

The idea of forcing someone to join you is hilarious and if you find someone willing to be threatened into it that's great. Most people won't do that though.

You could also use a disguise yourself and not summon your fiend. The main issue IC is demon summoning, the eldritch blasts are usually fine from my experience of leveling a Feylock.

As to what you can do when playing good characters: If you're going to run away like a coward and tell on them, at least roleplay that: emote fear and revulsion and make it kinda obvious you're not just strolling away uncaring. Massive kudos if you take a different action entirely.

[Arienette]

Definitely NOT calling anyone out. I don't even think there is anything necessarily "wrong" with with the behavior I am seeing.

The solution -IC- SEEMS to be "If you aren't going to join up with me, and instead you scurry off, likely to round up a mob to take me down, I'm just going to kill you here and now". But on an OOC level that wouldn't leave me with a very warm and feeling.

I get the significance of fiend-summoning. I have previously played good characters who had near-zero tolerance for such things, so I understand where each party is coming from. And I have been soloing in less populated areas as a result of this; and especially in UD areas. But this just makes it feel like I am playing a UD character without Hub Portal access rather than Surface Evil.

Perhaps a DM can give their opinion. Would pre-emptively killing people who you suspect are about to run off and report you for being a Bad Guy be frowned upon? My suspicion as to the answer would be "Do not make a habit of doing this", which I sort of agree with.

I might seriously try to take the tack of "Nope, your coming with me to kill orcs whether you like it or not. I want to keep an eye on you until I am done here". Could be fun.

[Aradin]

Having played a warlock on the surface, I can empathize. The best way I can distill it into one sentence is this.
If someone (who isn't evil) discovers you working pact magic, you can not reasonably expect them to react any differently than seeing you as an evil, dangerous, and hostile force.

You might get sick of it happening over and over again. It might get frustrating. But that's just the lot of playing a warlock in a place - the surface - that doesn't accept your kind. You're a devil-conjurer, an act that in the ethics of Arelith is unquestionably evil. This is kind of a macabre comparison, but I've always viewed pact magic as the D&D equivalent of killing puppies. If someone strolls up to you while you're killing puppies, they're not going to think "Hmmm....I think I'll give this person a chance". They're going to think "This is a psychotic and dangerous maniac who needs to immediately be stopped."

So to answer your question of how to be a warlock on the surface without ending up looking like a murder-hobo? Here are a few tips.

- Your pact is your number one secret. If that secret gets out, you're looking at an uphill battle to not get exiled or killed on sight wherever you go.
- Use your pact magic sparingly. If you go out adventuring with other characters, consider only doing buffs, and only within the reasonable limits of a wizard or sorcerer. Use gonnes, bombs, weapons, and other tricks of the trade to get by and divert attention. One of the things that made me chuckle when I played Revyn was people sending me OOC tells asking what class I was, because I was this thin, frail-looking man in a robe...with 550 hit points. I was never *good* in battle, but I picked my adventuring groups carefully; they were always big enough that I could sidle by in the background and never need to do too much.
- Get great with disguises. If you ARE seen working pact magic/killing puppies, make sure whoever spots you know that it was 'Alice Scary-Eyes' and not who you really are. Have a roster of different disguises. Perhaps Alice Scary-Eyes, a bubbly psycho who speaks Common with a southerner twang, only hunts near Sibayad, and Martha Bloodmantle, a stern and gruff woman who only speaks Dwarven, is seen on the Dark Spires. The fewer clues people have to trace to your true identity, the better.
- Make yourself valuable and integrate yourself into society. The Cordor guard (random example, don't quote me on this) will no doubt exile some random traveler who is revealed to be a warlock. But will they exile the head of a noble house who has deep ties to the government, the leader of a guild that's an integral player in the local economy, or a member of government who is well-loved by the people? If you have sway to your name, then even the wrong people finding out your secret isn't so black and white. At that point you get involved in all kinds of juicy blackmail RP.
- Tell people you trust - the right people. Some characters are softies who want to believe the best of people, and telling them your secret is a big sign of trust. You can manipulate those people into providing you with a place to stay, connections, etc.
- Alternately, roll with it. Lora Gallensen was a known warlock who operated out of Sibayad. If you don't like having secrets, then own it. Just make sure to own it somewhere where the inhabiants won't try to kill you.

Hope this gives you some ideas!

[Security_Blanket]

I only ever play Surface evil, if you don't want to attract groups of swords everywhere you go you definitely have to approach it with a bit of tact. Fiends and Undead are always a risk, neither are socially acceptable. If I recall correctly, even the Arcane Tower does little with the Necromancy School, which I think is a shame.

There should definitely be a stigma associated with such characters but the reaction from players I find usually borders from one extreme to the other. Either they do not care or leave and come back with a kill squad. There is a reason why non-exile Surfacers are spending so much time in the Underdark and the Shadowplane, it's the only place they can be themselves. I don't think evil should be openly accepted but just tolerated on some level, like it or not it's just a part of life.

My advice for playing a Warlock on the Surface is to go all out on your Bluff skill, be super paranoid of all characters. Your character would be openly hunted, killed, and everyone will cheer when they do it. If your character isn't terrified of being caught then they're either crazy brave or just plain crazy. Don't ever summon your fiend in public unless it's do or die. Don't ever talk about your pact, ever. And for the love of God, do not walk around with glowing eyes.

[DM Rex]

Perhaps a DM can give their opinion. Would pre-emptively killing people who you suspect are about to run off and report you for being a Bad Guy be frowned upon? My suspicion as to the answer would be "Do not make a habit of doing this", which I sort of agree with.

To answer the question, we really can't give an opinion on these kinds of decisions.

The important matter is focusing on ensuring that there is interaction, you can allow for an out, or you can also validate your attempts to survive by leaving no witnesses. These are entirely are of the player's disposition, the character's motivation and nature to decide, there is no requirement to subdue, slaughter everything in your way, or whatever might come between. The interaction should be more than just one lining players going "you've seen too much" and snuffing them out. And it should not drift into OOC animosity as the characters are the ones with the biases being expressed in game.

The same can be said of all sides, though. It's not just the 'bad' guy's perspective but also the 'good' or 'good-ish' guy's perspective as well. There are a lot of opportunities in these encounters, it is only limited by imagination.

[Morgy]

Just a thought, but playing an open Paladin/‘goodies’ and roaming around near Andunor/UD posts also can attract a very similar response. Some days it seemed the warning bells in Andunor would be going off all day at the spotting of Surfacers.

I do find it odd from an IC perspective that a gang would RUSH to the Sibayad Orcs just to fight a specific warlock in the area, rather than y’know all the half-fiend orcs already rocking around there. If it’s purely to slay said Warlock, that kind of behaviour isn’t really very inspiring and points to pvp-thirst.

[Royal Blood]

I led raids to the surface with Ravares frequently. I think you just need to accept that they will spread word. I often let people escape because it was better for roleplay than just kill bashing or something. Who cares though? If your objective is narrative and story than you've succeeded in that. It's fair to understand IC once you've been spotted your time is limit d before an army comes at you.

Just don't go to places where the opposite alignment frequent or If you do accept what may occur.

[Itikar]

I do find it odd from an IC perspective that a gang would RUSH to the Sibayad Orcs just to fight a specific warlock in the area, rather than y’know all the half-fiend orcs already rocking around there. If it’s purely to slay said Warlock, that kind of behaviour isn’t really very inspiring and points to pvp-thirst.

Yes, it is a great inconsistency, in my view. Especially if it involves also calling a horde of max-level characters who would not otherwise be bothered to do the same to npc warlocks of the same level who do the same, or even worse, i.e. they attack people.

If the warlock did something notable, like commit murders, threaten, rob, or anything that would stand out from the normal npc ones, then sure, it may make sense. But a gank-squad for just being a warlock and being civil? There are plenty of npc targets for that.

It reminds me of the lone goblin PC spotted on a windswept peak picking up plants who gets after him the combined armies of Brogdenstein, Guldorand, Bendir and Myon, whereas the 8636434674654 other goblins are ignored.

[chris a gogo]

It's the case of extremes.

Necromancers running about with undead, warlocks running around with devil/demons.

Both things are generally considered utterly disgusting and depraved by the people of the world including most evil people that are not themselves necromancers or warlocks.
It doesn't matter if you think your character is really a nice guy that is good company because the fact remains above everything else is the fact they consort with devils/demons this makes them morally the lowest of the low.

If you want to get by without gank squads and everyone non warlock/necromancer hating on the PC then as was suggested above never summon the devil/demon, this then gives the "normal" people some wiggle room to allow them to RP with your character.

[Arienette]

I have no expectation that Good PCs should just accept my giant fiend buddy and roll with the good times.

It just causes me to raise an eyebrow when I bump into a lone warrior who apparently wants me dead but doesn’t think they can take me; I leave them alone and then they send a gank squad after me. It’s like, OK, next time I will just kill you and rob your corpse and keep on doing my thing.

Again, I am not trying to call anyone out and have done this exact thing when playing good Surface characters (the majority of my time on Arelith) without thinking anything if it. Seeing the other side of it has given me pause.

[Arigard]

It reminds me of the lone goblin PC spotted on a windswept peak picking up plants who gets after him the combined armies of Brogdenstein, Guldorand, Bendir and Myon, whereas the 8636434674654 other goblins are ignored.

You just described a majority of monster interactions I've had on the surface in one sentence. There have been good ones, but they're usually the exception.

With regards to hostile RP versus diametrically opposed lore, the concepts of good/evil in the setting we play is pretty much absolute. As an evil player and especially an extreme evil (monster/warlock/necromancer) you need to really just accept that there's not really much leeway for characters on the opposite side if they fundamentally oppose not just everything you stand for, but your very existence, especially if you're a notable character. So you really need to either do everything you can to make yourself not stand out, or simply accept that it's pretty logical for people that spot you to run to get help.

Personally I'm fine with open hostility from the get go being shown towards my monster/eviler characters (especially the ones witht more reputation), I just wish it would have a little more build up than *in lenses 6 warded characters 10 minutes after you've tried to RP with someone that's ignored you and run away/lensed the instant you type anything* & then "Look a monster, kill it!"

Ultimately encounters end up being marred by bad experiences and this tends to create a race to the bottom. You give other players the benefit of the doubt and the "I must win at all costs" mentality overtakes proceedings and before you get a chance to do anything someone is lensing out, or teleporting (on both sides of the debate), so people get fed up and do the bare minimum. I know I try to work into both my good and evil character RP that they deem only the 'champions' (levels 30's) worth even wasting time on, but not everyone can justify simply ignoring the overwhelming evil in their face and giving it a nice well package escape route if it's intent on being blatant about it.

I do think we all need to encourage giving the benefit of the doubt to other characters and players though more even if it means getting cheesed 8/10 times for doing so. That's the only way these encounters will become more than people just jumping the gun because they have PTSD about the 20 other monsters/surfacers they tried to RP with who either just peaced out to get back up, or escaped the situation the second an olive branch was extended.

Sometimes it can also just be bad circumstances, you might have 4 people in a group that want to role-play and then one jumps the gun and once that happens it's very difficult to rescue a scene.

[Scylon]

Yeah, this sounds a lot like metagaming to me. The fact they were nice to you and then 5-10 minutes later are rounding up the troops stinks of PvP blood thirst. I personally don't play "good" characters, aiming for more middle ground (or grey) choices.

Best bit of advise as has been said to be secretive about it. Also when adventuring ware a disguise. Finally and this is the hardest part I personally found, find friends who are evil or don't care.

[Kalopsia]

Some of my good characters in these situations went "Unsummon the fiend and we can fight this mutual enemy together. I will not fight alongside a [insert fiend type here] however." Then, as the adventure progresses, they'd engage the presumably evil character in a moral debate to learn what drives them. If these motivations are absolutely abhorrent, sure they might decide not to travel with the character again, or mention the encounter later on to warn people. But at least there's been some meaningful RP instead of the situation the OP described.

There is almost always some wiggle room for both sides.
In my opinion, collaborative RP should not be about doing exactly what your character would do, but also about keeping in mind the impact these actions would have on everyone involved.
An example: if an evil character I played found out about a goodly infiltrator in their equally evil faction, sure they could immediately blow the good guy's cover (and thus most likely end this RP arc). However, they could also observe said character to learn who they work for and eventually set a trap (for both!), or threaten them with their knowledge and hope for a lucrative bargain. Or feed them entirely wrong information.
All of these options are perfectly valid for an evil character but engage the other player more than the immediate, "100% IC"(tm) reaction.

The TLDR of the above: Enjoyable RP is often more about bending a character concept to include other people than it is about perfectly representing the personality at all times.

[Archnon]

I have no expectation that Good PCs should just accept my giant fiend buddy and roll with the good times.

It just causes me to raise an eyebrow when I bump into a lone warrior who apparently wants me dead but doesn’t think they can take me; I leave them alone and then they send a gank squad after me. It’s like, OK, next time I will just kill you and rob your corpse and keep on doing my thing.

Again, I am not trying to call anyone out and have done this exact thing when playing good Surface characters (the majority of my time on Arelith) without thinking anything if it. Seeing the other side of it has given me pause.

This seems like a totally natural reaction of someone who hates evil but feats for their life. Round up the possy.

Also, pretending that even same level NPCs are on par with pcs is just wrong. Sure, there are lots of goblins/warlocks/whatever. But that one pc warlock can go slaughter hundreds of other npc warlocks without batting an eye. I wouldn't want that near my settlement of weak villagers.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

I have no idea if this thought would hearten you at all, but, keep in mind not everyone wants to go running after the one to five "bad guys spotted" when word comes in it happened. But if they don't? Often times they are then judged and criticized and called out for letting evil roam.
It is pretty frustrating on all sides I think when word is spread to half the server that two goblins were spotted or a single drow was getting wood in the Forest of Dispair or whatever else may have occured.
Share the warning, hey, don't go that way because X was sighted there but do we really all need to converge and chase them off ?

[McKnighter]

I sympathize with your blight, ultimately the best solutions have already been provided. You're damned if you let that good guy run off to go gather his friends to murder you and you're damned if you murder him because now he'll go tell his friends he got attacked by an infernalist.

The only way to realistically survive as a surface evil is to go incognito about your dark dealings until you've amassed enough allies or joined some sort of (secret)faction that will act as both a deterrent and a safety net for you to thrive in. True openly evil factions upon the surface are effectively nonexistent or are have been completely neutered from what I have seen.

In my opinion, Sibayad is the graveyard of evil characters. it's where you are most likely to be spotted committing amoral acts such as traveling with your fiend companion and it is highly accessible by any characters who need no further encouragement to hunt a warlock down. I've seen countless times where five hunters or more race across Sibayad and even the Aurilite Temple to run down the lone leveling warlock/necromancer and killbash them. It's not very exciting or engaging roleplay, but such is the price to be paid when playing evil characters, everyone else more or less can wage a casus belli to put an end to you and any pre-emptive action done by your part will only add fuel to the fire. It's at this point that most either decide to migrate to Andunor for the remainer of their leveling journey or roll. The few that managed to play the game and hide their true nature get to carry on to... Whatever surface evil heaven may look like, I wouldn't know.

It's going to be ball-busting no matter how you approach it, either handicapping yourself or making peace that you'll have to suffer a few pvp 'encounters'. But nothing is more satisfying than to see your character finally reach the final hurdle, then be able to look to settle all those IC grudges, ideally with some friends of your own for along the way. Long standing rivals and the conflicts that can brew out of them are 10x more better than some five second gank out in the field.

It's up to the evil characters to take such hits and turn the other cheek. To turn such misfortunate into opportunities in the future for better engaging roleplay down the line.

[torugor]

This tended to happen a lot with me because of my associations with evil groups. Best thing you do is not use openly your devilish powers. I keep telling undead users as well this. Man you have so many powers at disposal why call a devil or a undead to fight if you can get caught.

Were i using it and being seen using it...i would either use a disguise or go for aggressive towards pvp. Its not a matter of being the mustache evil guy who kills because he is evil...its about survival. Good guys want to kill bad guys when they know about them. Heck they tend to hate more devils and undeads than the orcs in the sands. So if i were using this kind of power and were discovered either i would run or go for the kill. No middle ground because for sure the guy who escaped you will call friends to kill you.

Suppose in the real world...you are an EVIL guy who likes to ...i dont know... put fire on places. You are caught on act with the gasoline and a gun by some people who obviously decide to not engage on a fight because you are psycho with a gun. You should either run or kill the witnesses. Not wait in the same place watching the fire burn. That would be stupid of you. No matter how charismatic you are...you are putting fire on buildings people will call law enforces to get you on prison.

Thats the best analogy i can make to you being spotted with a devil.

[Drowboy]

This is kind of why I wish warlocks were more like pen and paper ones in both mechanics and perception. Suspicious, weird, mistrusted, sure, but being one isn't a virtual death sentence. They're playable, and to a lot of people indistinguishable from most mages.

Granted, this would also require them not being able to conjure up the generals of infernal and abyssal armies, literal holes in morality where goodness and light go to die, but- well, why the hell is that a PC ability to begin with?

[torugor]

This is kind of why I wish warlocks were more like pen and paper ones in both mechanics and perception. Suspicious, weird, mistrusted, sure, but being one isn't a virtual death sentence. They're playable, and to a lot of people indistinguishable from most mages.

Granted, this would also require them not being able to conjure up the generals of infernal and abyssal armies, literal holes in morality where goodness and light go to die, but- well, why the hell is that a PC ability to begin with?

I also think its lame for anyone to conjure a devil lord or even a dragon to fight orcs. Think this kinds of conjurations works more like a gap in the immersion than anything else. Should at least cost XP or gold to conjure them so that it would be less likelly to be used on mudane things...but seems like people prefer to have balance on pvp than immersion.

[Scylon]

I also think its lame for anyone to conjure a devil lord or even a dragon to fight orcs. Think this kinds of conjurations works more like a gap in the immersion than anything else. Should at least cost XP or gold to conjure them so that it would be less likelly to be used on mudane things...but seems like people prefer to have balance on pvp than immersion.

I think there needs to be a line drawn between what the hardcore rules of pen and paper are vs fun. Lets be real, for warlocks/wizards it's fun summoning mythical creatures for fight for us. As a counter to that there is a lot of crap we can't do as casters due to limitations on the engine.

[Skarain]

Well, you could dismiss the fiend the instant you see someone and go 100% for the bluff. "Oh, thank gods! These orcs are dabbling into yet more dangerous magic, summoning a fiend that immediately turned against them. Come! We must put an end to them before they cause more harm".

You could also go Jedi Mind Trick : "You saw no fiend here", and dismiss. You're an infinicaster. You can just resummon it a bit later.

Or if they join you, use a scroll for elemental summon to have something that tanks for you.

But yes. Fiends in general are the ultimate epitome of evil. The world is full of heroes who want to strike them down. Warlocks can not really show their full toolkit and expect people to be fine with it.

If Enchantment wasn't as broken, I would suggest playing one for an easier surface evil time. It still works but is cumbersome to use.

I've got a Yuan Ti Healer Cleric on the surface, mostly inactive of present. They ranger dip just so I can have a giant snake as my conjured elemental. Such gives me more leeway with being surface evil, rather than obvious evil with undead summons. I let the evilness simply infuence dualogue and actions. It gives more room for moral debate rather than outright rejection due to evil outsiders.

[Exordius]

I never just attack people or gather lynch mobs to go after them when i first meet them, even if they are evil and have undead or fiends out. As long as their characters are not on mine's hit-list then i don't care. Besides... if i'm in sibayad their fiends and undead make grinding the desert orcs so much easier.