Japanese Weapons

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deserk
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Japanese Weapons

Post by deserk » Thu May 13, 2021 12:23 pm

Any chance these weapons could be renamed and repurposed to more broader concepts? I just feel like these weapons are a bit of a waste of resources, since the only characters that could really justify using these weapons are characters from Kozakura and Wa. Speaking for myself, I honestly don't feel such characters need encouragement, since they will always readily be played by a steady stream of anime enthusiasts.

The type of Kara-Turans we ought to be seeing more of, and rarely do, should be Tuigans (i.e. Mongols) and Shou (Chinese), since they actually have a bit of a presence in Faerun (mostly in the Unapproachable East, i.e. Thesk and the Endless Wastes). Whereas Kozakurans and Waans (the Japanese equivalent nations of Kara-Tur) have virtually no presence in Faerun, and therefore ought to be extremely unlikely to see here, since those nations, like their historical counterpart were extremely isolated in the world, as Japan was before the Meiji Restoration. So why should there be so many unique weapons tailored to a culture that is in effect virtually non existent in this setting? It would be so much more interesting to see weapons tailored to elves, dwarves, orcs, or other Faerunian regional cultures like Calishites, Mulhorandi, Chessentans, Durpari, etc.

Suggestions for more broader terms:

Katana -> Sabre
Naginata -> Fauchard
Shuriken -> Throwing stars
Wakizashi -> Knife

Good Character
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Good Character » Thu May 13, 2021 12:48 pm

The easiest solution to what you're asking for is to simply rename the item and give it a new description in the dweomercrafting basin. No one will second guess you if you truly present yourself and your weapon as a certain concept. Frankly the only weapon that appears too much like its actual self is the katana, and ironically it's part of the base game unlike the naginata or wakizashi.

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garrbear758
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by garrbear758 » Thu May 13, 2021 2:02 pm

From FR wiki:
However, the swords had spread as far as Faerûn in the mid–14th century DR, such as in the hands of Shou expatriates and other Kara-Turans traveling the Golden Way through Thesk,[36][37] wielded by the Bushido mercenaries in Chessenta,[38] or by various misadventures (with several katanas known as Master Li's Way coming from a ship that ran aground on the Sword Coast[12][13] and Darkened Glory from a caravan attacked by yuan-ti[39]) or unknown means. Local versions were even produced (such as the katana of the North[12]). Thus mundane and unique katanas could be found up and down the Sword Coast and in the North by the 1360s and 70s DR.[11][12][13][39] The Corthala family of Amn had their own family heirloom katana.[11] Even Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias, a drow cleric of Eilistraee, wielded a katana while on Evermeet.[40]
It’s not unreasonable to believe the same would apply to naginata, wakizashi, etc.
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Thu May 13, 2021 2:04 pm

deserk wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:23 pm
Suggestions for more broader terms:

Katana -> Sabre
Naginata -> Fauchard
Shuriken -> Throwing stars
Wakizashi -> Knife
Renaming katana to sabre is pretty much as wrong as it gets. Same goes for wakazashi and knife. Wakazashi is more akin to a short sword and a katana to a (arming) sword. The knife would be a tanto.
That being said the cultural and historical differences are pretty hard to translate. Not to mention the materials and construction process.

nwn term vs historical equivalent
dagger = dagger
shortsword = short-sword (perhaps just 'sword')
longsword = (arming) sword (again, perhaps just 'sword')
bastardsword = hand-and-a-half / long-sword
rapier = side-sword / spada da lato (alternatively it should be 20-30% longer)

Given the elongated handle (among other things) of the katana and the bastardsword it can reasonably be argued that they do need "exotic" (read: less known) proficiency. I do however not see the reason why monks get proficiency in them for free.

I would however LOVE to see back-swords, basket-hilted swords, katzbalger, different polearm model for halberd, polaxe, sabre (I'm looking at you scimitar)
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Ork » Thu May 13, 2021 2:32 pm

ACKTUALLY. The naming of the items do not matter. OP is wanting to diverge from kozu & wa.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Curve » Thu May 13, 2021 2:34 pm

actually it's kataner

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by deserk » Thu May 13, 2021 3:26 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:02 pm
From FR wiki:
However, the swords had spread as far as Faerûn in the mid–14th century DR, such as in the hands of Shou expatriates and other Kara-Turans traveling the Golden Way through Thesk,[36][37] wielded by the Bushido mercenaries in Chessenta,[38] or by various misadventures (with several katanas known as Master Li's Way coming from a ship that ran aground on the Sword Coast[12][13] and Darkened Glory from a caravan attacked by yuan-ti[39]) or unknown means. Local versions were even produced (such as the katana of the North[12]). Thus mundane and unique katanas could be found up and down the Sword Coast and in the North by the 1360s and 70s DR.[11][12][13][39] The Corthala family of Amn had their own family heirloom katana.[11] Even Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias, a drow cleric of Eilistraee, wielded a katana while on Evermeet.[40]
It’s not unreasonable to believe the same would apply to naginata, wakizashi, etc.
If you check the citations there you will see a good chunk of the sources and assertions from that paragraph are based on the Baldur's Gate I/II games and the NWN games, which is not considered FR canon. What is considered FR canon about those games is what published Forgotten Realms books have stated in regards to them. And I'd say the guy who wrote that paragraph makes a lot assumptions about Faerun based on a video game developer putting in a few katanas here and there in a couple of boxes and chests.

And having checked the other sources, those books (Unapproachable East, Player's Guide to Faerun) don't explicitly say or suggest what that FR wiki article is claiming. Not to mention that FR wiki, like many other wikis, is not a reliable source, and that site does have many dubious articles. It's merely stated in those specific books if you have a character with the Shou Expatriate origin, you have an option to start with a Masterwork Katana. Truth be told though, it ought to be a Chinese weapon like a Dao or Jian that should be the choice. But those weapons didn't exist in D&D 3.5 rule set as far as I'm aware.

deserk
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by deserk » Thu May 13, 2021 3:58 pm

Ordo.Lupus wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:04 pm
Renaming katana to sabre is pretty much as wrong as it gets. Same goes for wakazashi and knife. Wakazashi is more akin to a short sword and a katana to a (arming) sword. The knife would be a tanto.
That being said the cultural and historical differences are pretty hard to translate. Not to mention the materials and construction process.
I don't disagree with your points entirely. it's not a perfect rebranding, but at least the vagueness of those terms makes it more open to being weapons from other cultures than Japan.

And out of 54 weapon types, 6 of them are Japanese weapons. And I'd say that's pretty odd in what is ostensibly a Western fantasy setting. And also when considered that Kozakura and Wa is extremely remote to Faerun, and especially to this island chain of Arelith, since it is west of Faerun.

And I'm not saying they can't be Katanas, Wakizashis, Naginatas, etc. Let's just not use Japanese terms as the base line to describe these weapons, in a setting that is neither fantasy Japan nor medieval Japan.

Why should there be six weapon types dedicated to one specific culture that is virtually non existent here? There is a massive breadth of weapons from many European, African, Middle Eastern and Indian cultures that would be far more appropriate. Not to mention orcish, elven. dwarven, gnomish, and halfling weapon types from D&D.
Last edited by deserk on Thu May 13, 2021 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeAdept
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by TimeAdept » Thu May 13, 2021 4:00 pm

my rogue called his katanas anarouch tulwars and no one cared everyone was fine w/ it

just call/name it something else

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu May 13, 2021 4:12 pm

deserk wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:26 pm
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:02 pm
From FR wiki:
However, the swords had spread as far as Faerûn in the mid–14th century DR, such as in the hands of Shou expatriates and other Kara-Turans traveling the Golden Way through Thesk,[36][37] wielded by the Bushido mercenaries in Chessenta,[38] or by various misadventures (with several katanas known as Master Li's Way coming from a ship that ran aground on the Sword Coast[12][13] and Darkened Glory from a caravan attacked by yuan-ti[39]) or unknown means. Local versions were even produced (such as the katana of the North[12]). Thus mundane and unique katanas could be found up and down the Sword Coast and in the North by the 1360s and 70s DR.[11][12][13][39] The Corthala family of Amn had their own family heirloom katana.[11] Even Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias, a drow cleric of Eilistraee, wielded a katana while on Evermeet.[40]
It’s not unreasonable to believe the same would apply to naginata, wakizashi, etc.
If you check the citations there you will see a good chunk of the sources and assertions from that paragraph are based on the Baldur's Gate I/II games and the NWN games, which is not considered FR canon. What is considered FR canon about those games is what published Forgotten Realms books have stated in regards to them. And I'd say the guy who wrote that paragraph makes a lot assumptions about Faerun based on a video game developer putting in a few katanas here and there in a couple of boxes and chests.

And having checked the other sources, those books (Unapproachable East, Player's Guide to Faerun) don't explicitly say or suggest what that FR wiki article is claiming. Not to mention that FR wiki, like many other wikis, is not a reliable source, and that site does have many dubious articles. It's merely stated in those specific books if you have a character with the Shou Expatriate origin, you have an option to start with a Masterwork Katana. Truth be told though, it ought to be a Chinese weapon like a Dao or Jian that should be the choice. But those weapons didn't exist in D&D 3.5 rule set as far as I'm aware.
Games are Canon, unless another source already exists (like a novel), then that takes precedence.


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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Lexx » Thu May 13, 2021 7:52 pm

The rarity of them historically doesn't /have/ to correlate the same to the setting. As others have said the broad designs in the setting whilst aren't super common have been reproduced or co opted in various parts of western Faerun. Which honestly I have little issue in such a setting where magic, planar travel and living godlike entities are a thing. Some weapon designs being more circulated than their real world counterpart seems a minor issue compared to that.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Nitro » Thu May 13, 2021 8:45 pm

deserk wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:58 pm
Why should there be six weapon types dedicated to one specific culture that is virtually non existent here? There is a massive breadth of weapons from many European, African, Middle Eastern and Indian cultures that would be far more appropriate. Not to mention orcish, elven. dwarven, gnomish, and halfling weapon types from D&D.
Because katanas are popular in cultural zeitgeist, Yklwas and chakrams are not.

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garrbear758
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by garrbear758 » Thu May 13, 2021 10:14 pm

Does this mean my request for a macuahuitl when the suggestion box opens will get denied? :cry:
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Thu May 13, 2021 10:43 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:14 pm
Does this mean my request for a macuahuitl when the suggestion box opens will get denied? :cry:
With the influx of maztican's lately, that sounds like an amazing weapon to bring in.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 16, 2021 4:08 am

Presumably by taking the exotic weapon feat, or a class involving them, one has learned how to use exotic weapons and thus has likely sourced one as well.
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Ebonstar » Sun May 16, 2021 12:22 pm

deserk wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:58 pm
Why should there be six weapon types dedicated to one specific culture that is virtually non existent here? There is a massive breadth of weapons from many European, African, Middle Eastern and Indian cultures that would be far more appropriate. Not to mention orcish, elven. dwarven, gnomish, and halfling weapon types from D&D.
and just think, if the team had taken the time to change the names in the blueprints of these six weapons to not be japanese, there would be people going no wait those are katana etc.

your massive breadth of european weapons are included, but i think you are looking to deeply into this.

Amn has shipping all across the land and seas of Faerun, meaning they would even have ships that could trade with eastern ports who have dealings with Wa and Kozakura. The weapons would be traded and find their way into the shops all over the continent. Hence why they are in Arelith.
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by magistrasa » Sun May 16, 2021 12:37 pm

I feel like it's less about the weapons, and more about the fact that Kozakura and Wa sort of end up being an overrepresented minority in roleplay as a result of the encouragement. It's a little weird from an in-universe perspective.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Itikar » Sun May 16, 2021 12:59 pm

I am surprised at people bothered by katana or shuriken, which are not really that common in game, but nobody mentioning the kama. Kama's are very specific of Japan, even if not nearly as famous in mainstream media as the other weapons mentioned, yet I have seen countless monk characters with them, even without any clear links to Wa and Kozakura or Kara-Tur at large.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Ninjimmy » Sun May 16, 2021 2:41 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 12:37 pm
I feel like it's less about the weapons, and more about the fact that Kozakura and Wa sort of end up being an overrepresented minority in roleplay as a result of the encouragement. It's a little weird from an in-universe perspective.
You say that like Arelith otherwise has the standard demographics you'd expect from a middle of nowhere island near the moonshaes.
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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by magistrasa » Sun May 16, 2021 3:34 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:41 pm
You say that like Arelith otherwise has the standard demographics you'd expect from a middle of nowhere island near the moonshaes.
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If I were to be totally honest I personally just don't like seeing the pseudo-Japanese characters because of that awful decade I spent as a shameless weeaboo and now any time I see someone say "konnichiwa" in-character I have a seizure. Its lore is too similar to its real life inspirations to be played any differently, and it just completely takes me out of a scene - but I know that's not really anyone's fault but mine.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by CarrierOriskany » Tue May 18, 2021 10:29 pm

I mean while the other posts have made good points. Other people forget that if Arelith is on the far side of Faerun, and Wa on the far eastern side of Kara-Tur, then in retrospect the two landmasses are actually really close to one another. Because that’s how geography works on a round globe.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Duchess Says » Wed May 19, 2021 2:25 am

I don't think it's all that weird or that you can point to real history and say they didn't have something so we shouldn't. Faerun isn't earth. It's loosely based on various aspects of earth, mishmashing the ideas and technology of many centuries (even up to the 19th) and appropriating many cultures. but it's not earth. Travel and trade are much more common. +Teleportation+ exists! Adventurers are traipsing everywhere. Some countries and cities are many many centuries old and the people have knowledge and connections no one would have in our reality.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed May 19, 2021 4:04 am

Its also simply a matter of what's available on the Vault to use.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by TimeAdept » Thu May 20, 2021 1:52 am

CarrierOriskany wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:29 pm
I mean while the other posts have made good points. Other people forget that if Arelith is on the far side of Faerun, and Wa on the far eastern side of Kara-Tur, then in retrospect the two landmasses are actually really close to one another. Because that’s how geography works on a round globe.
There are technically 4 other continents between faerun and Wa if you cross the ocean. It's 'probably' shorter to go by land over the Golden Road.

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Re: Japanese Weapons

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Sun May 23, 2021 6:36 pm

Listen man if I can't rp as being a master of the Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu then what am I even doing with my life?
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