Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

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Hazard
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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Hazard » Sun May 30, 2021 1:56 pm

Curve wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 1:50 pm
... I do think that server culture is moving us away from "hardcore rp" towards "action/adventure".
I feel this way too.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Sadrithos » Sun May 30, 2021 2:23 pm

I see some people who are more action/adventure, but I remember that Cordor used to be run by a character literally directly out of a parody of fantasy novels and stuff like that. So I personally suspect the "good old days" were just as memey and silly as these.
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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 30, 2021 7:16 pm

So I went and dredged up the numbers really quick to add some thoughts here. Player numbers have been tracked since 2016, and according to my very cursory glance at the first post and last post - Arelith's numbers (unique players) have nearly tripled over the last five years.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956&start=25

Has the culture itself shifted, or is there just so many more people that our perception simply sees more of what we don't like? I don't know if there's any way to objectively quantify this beyond our own personal experiences.

I think I joined in 2014, and back then people were still min maxing every build just as they do today. Cliques operated through the same general channels (Skype had been in vogue at this time I believe). 'RP before 30' had still been mentioned with the same tongue in cheek it is today, and I definitely remember being occasionally reminded in tells about how I was doing things wrong back then too. To me - not much has really changed - and I'm happy to take the bad because the good is in far greater quantity.

Besides my experience in 2014 on Arelith - nearly all of this was going on to some level back in 2003 as well when I was... cough... still playing NWN.
Drowble Oh Seven wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 1:35 pm
The reward for good roleplay is being involved in good roleplay, not any sort of mechanical plusses, special characters, or unique hats. You cultivate good roleplay by doing good roleplay around interested people.
[Emphasis my own - to touch on in a minute.]

I want to highlight this too because it follows something I was also going to dig up as it seemed incentives was going to me brought up soon. About a year ago someone asked the playerbase: Those who got 30-40 RPR, how did you do it?

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=29835&p=238079&hilit=how#p238079

Among many good answers with great variety came one very consistent answer in almost every post that I'll paraphrase: "I wasn't thinking about it."

So if excellence in RP is our goal I'm not so sure that incentives will be the key to victory, as incentives do not appear to be the major driving factor in what people think of when roleplaying. Sure the cookies are nice and feel good, but that doesn't appear to be why most people keep going into the kitchen (it's definitely the wine).

Circling back to the emphasis I placed on Drowble's (or is it Drowbie? I can't quite tell) comment. When I see topics such as these I wonder: Are these players playing badly on purpose, are they unsalvagable cheaters maliciously ignoring their sheet, or are they simply me from 17 years ago just trying to figure out how to play an incredibly difficult to learn, impossible to master, genre?

I think the vast majority just need to be welcomed in, shown the way, and learn at their own pace. It's messy, it's ugly, mistakes will be made in excessive quantity if they're anything like me, but it all might make for a great player with many fine memories made along the way.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun May 30, 2021 8:15 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:16 pm
Drowble Oh Seven wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 1:35 pm
The reward for good roleplay is being involved in good roleplay, not any sort of mechanical plusses, special characters, or unique hats. You cultivate good roleplay by doing good roleplay around interested people.

On the tangent of RP being its own reward, and not giving out cookies, I'd like to share a little anecdote about this sentiment.

When my character was running the Cordor Guard, he did not want to be paid a monthly stipend, and he wanted guards who felt the same way. In fact, he did his bet to recruit people who wanted to be guards not for gold, but for love of country- the reward was meant to be having a legitimate hand in defending your home and enforcing the laws to make it a better place.

The idea was a complete flop both IC and OOC- despite the fact that we had a gold fund set aside not for monthly pay, but to fund the equipment needs of any recruit who was under-equipped (he was also told in no uncertain terms by his boss that he was getting paid whether he liked it or not.) It worked for a little while, but eventually the sentiment was so overwhelmingly against the practice that I gave up for the sake of the fun of other players (even though my character firmly felt that those who needed a monthly stipend to defend their home didn't deserve any legal authority to do so).

I feel that saying "Rp'ing according to the system is its own rewards" touches on a similar sentiment.

Yes, you can enjoy the scene. Yes, you can have a fun, memorable interaction that gives you an internal sense of validation - but humans are biologically social creatures and we crave external validation, even if we learn to operate without it. This is why coaches compliment and cajole, it's why captains issue promotions, and it's why people who plan to live in a city for the rest of their lives while making untold amounts of wealth as an adventurer still want a thousand gold every three days.

The -recommend system is a nice touch, but it could be expanded on so that more people have access to a method to give such external validation - I won't attempt to suggest how, because I don't have that kind of time, but it seems to me that it should be possible to expand it in such a way that people who are lower than 30 RPR can also utilize it without it being rampantly abused. After all, you don't have to be the perfect, model RP'er to know that you enjoyed your interaction with someone. And gating that ability behind a status that requires a coveted and admittedly rare amount of DM attention due to the fact that DM's are busy as hell, seems a shame.
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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Anomandaris » Sun May 30, 2021 9:18 pm

Playing your stat sheet is like playing your alignment. It’s honor system, and yes, important to the setting and rp. I think it is very much like cheating at battleship as some one said. But the self policing thing just ain’t gonna happen.

I loved that on an old server I played on, if you did something totally out of pocket alignment wise you would notice a dm changed your alignment score a little. You never knew when someone was watching..

I played a bg that slaughtered the favored servants of a giant god I worshiped (dungeon npcs) and lost all my magic for a rl week. It was awesome, I had no idea anyone was watching and didn’t even think about it.

It doesn’t need to be perfect or comprehensive oversight but just knowing that there are consequences that the team will implement, sometimes, in subtle ways, could at least keep folks a little more honest. I don’t want someone banned for having no fear of death, I want them to have a mechanical malus that is dm assigned for x days/weeks that makes them less effective in combat because they didn’t respect death. I’d love to see divine casters who blatantly violate their dieties or alignments tenants lose their magic for a time etc etc..

I also think that with WoW, league and other MOBAs that have become very popular, we have a lot of players and cultural influence from modern gaming. Those games are pvp games with fantasy settings, but Arelith is a rp server with pvp elements. I think the dev and player community focus on mechanics and balance sets a cultural tone that balance and mechanics should be the focus of our attention. I enjoy pvp a lot and think balance is “somewhat important” but it feels to me we’ve lost the forest through the trees a bit. You can’t really balance a server based on dnd mechanics with an old, clunky game engine without watering things down too much.

At the end of the day if someone wants to rp their char as good at everything, fearless, immortal, hero/villain Chad, they’re gonna do that and there’s nothing we can do to police it. Same goes for power building for the sole purpose of exerting mechanical power over ppl in a lazy way that adds no real narrative value. I don’t mind that much because ppl will gravitate towards those that tell interesting, meaningful stories which promote inclusive community oriented rp. But if the dm team had more of a mandate to hand out ic wrist slaps for stupid stuff, as opposed to mostly ooc punishments it’d be a great development as far as I’m concerned.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Inordinate » Sun May 30, 2021 10:27 pm

Touching on some of the points Skibbles made, the clutching of pearls about "how things have changed" is something that's persisted just as long as all of those things they mentioned and then some. "The good old days" aren't nearly as holy as some of the posts here make them out to be.
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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Curve » Sun May 30, 2021 11:00 pm

If it helps to move the conversation forward don’t think of it as a return to some nonexistent glory days, rather as a current swing towards action-adventure. I don’t think debating if it was better before or not is all that useful.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Mon May 31, 2021 3:10 am

I'm sauntering off on tangents of my own, admittedly, but I agree there is a bit of a swing towards action-adventure presently. I'm not convinced it's a bad or lasting thing, though. NWN's been suddenly made available to a lot more people, thanks to EE. My expectation is that, as the years tick on, numbers'll drop down again and we'll likely drift back to that older style of play as each interaction becomes that little bit more special.

In the meantime, there's lots of folks about who might be trying RP for the first time. It's a different era with its own advantages and challenges.

A little brain-fogged at the moment, so not really sure what I'm getting at here, short of the old classic of be excellent to each other. Which, y'know. Y'all know already.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Skibbles » Mon May 31, 2021 5:18 am

In regards to the question of there simply not being enough rewards, or more easily obtainable ones:

We're on page 7 and still don't know what Charisma does.

Near a dozen or more people have chimed in stating, explicitly, that they don't perceive Charisma as relating to appearance at all.

Just as many have stated they've done the exact thing in the topic, but explained their reasoning for doing so.

Yet through all this - not one post has said that they would have done otherwise if only they'd gotten something out of it.

PS - The RPR system is flawed, it has value, and I won't dispute it. It just won't be solving these niche little issues no matter how thick it's laid on, and I'm trying to stay on topic in that regard.

Action-Adventure is Not New:

I've been playing this game since before WoW came out. None of this is new. I repeat: this is not new. This was literally before WoW even came out while many gamers were still using dial-up modems. I actually remember a quarter of my server disappeared the day WoW released, but many came back eventually because they also enjoyed role-playing.

I'm still happy to get aboard the hate-train for games like WoW and Minecraft for introducing obnoxious gaming systems like 'fishing', but these games didn't suddenly invent a whole new culture - they appealed to a personality that has been present for decades (and in my opinion, since the dawn of time).

'Munchkin' goes back as far as I can remember, even a tongue-in-cheek card game (where you're supposed to kill, loot, screw your friends, and ignore RP) was named after it as early as 2001, and I think it was even used in fully text-based MUDs where these issues were also present.

This is because powergaming isn't a 'culture.' It's a facet of a human personality trait. Any idea of there having been a 'good old day' is owed, if anything, to unappealing server design that did not attract enough people for this trait to be more readily apparent. Is anyone's former server-of-glory when everything was done right even around anymore?
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Fava Beans » Mon May 31, 2021 8:50 am

just chiming in again;

i know this is kind of loaded but, what is attractiveness? a friend of mine thinks shrek is pure, raw, hotness. they have made several arguments about it, meanwhile the rest of my friends would rather stare at scarlet Johannsen, or chris hemsworth. what a person sees as attractive is too personal, skin tones, complexions, physique. i dont spend even a moment thinking the stats shown on the description page show me anything about attractiveness, largely because you can falsify them with -mimic. the theater of the minds eye is what leads me to think certain characters are attractive. when i play a character, that character has opinions about everything, even looks.

So, you might be the most stunningly perfect beautiful flawless person ever to have lived, but my grizzled war veteran will think ' who could think thats attractive? its like a statue its too fake '. if you see a character that has low charisma, and decide to not see them as attractive then that can simply be your characters opinion, that only a charismatic person can be beautiful. there is nothing wrong with that at all. preferences are just that, preferences.

On a side note, i have very enjoyed reading the discussions about how people view this issue, it helps to add perspective to how i roleplay, and how others perceive it.

(and i know im saying it again, but being able to cast certain spells is not a reflection on your physical appearance. )

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Mon May 31, 2021 9:33 am

Fava Beans wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 8:50 am
just chiming in again;

i know this is kind of loaded but, what is attractiveness? a friend of mine thinks shrek is pure, raw, hotness. they have made several arguments about it, meanwhile the rest of my friends would rather stare at scarlet Johannsen, or chris hemsworth. what a person sees as attractive is too personal, skin tones, complexions, physique. i dont spend even a moment thinking the stats shown on the description page show me anything about attractiveness, largely because you can falsify them with -mimic. the theater of the minds eye is what leads me to think certain characters are attractive. when i play a character, that character has opinions about everything, even looks.

So, you might be the most stunningly perfect beautiful flawless person ever to have lived, but my grizzled war veteran will think ' who could think thats attractive? its like a statue its too fake '. if you see a character that has low charisma, and decide to not see them as attractive then that can simply be your characters opinion, that only a charismatic person can be beautiful. there is nothing wrong with that at all. preferences are just that, preferences.

On a side note, i have very enjoyed reading the discussions about how people view this issue, it helps to add perspective to how i roleplay, and how others perceive it.

(and i know im saying it again, but being able to cast certain spells is not a reflection on your physical appearance. )

I did not intend to claim it is. Personally I am in the camp of "Charisma determines how sure and certain in your identity and beliefs you are, and this certainity leads to the more tangible experiences." A paladin of Torm has a high charisma, but tormtar tend to be frustratingly zealous that can make them disliked. However, being disliked is a feature of charisma as it stems from being someone who refuses to bend their beliefs.

The reason I cited spellcasting was to remind people of what should count as "low." While on this server have inflated ability scores thanks to the various Gifts and even non-standard races, we have to remmeber the statistics of the realm and recognize that if you can on average only find someone capable of 2nd circle spells in large towns... Then the ability to cast 2nd circle shouldnt be consideted "low."

While it isn't a 1:1 correspondence with one's sense of self/certainity in identity/beliefs (after all, levels also come into play for determining it)... It is still indicative considering it is a tangible effect.
Last edited by LovelyLightningWitch on Mon May 31, 2021 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Dr. B » Mon May 31, 2021 4:34 pm

Posts about "the good old days" have existed since 2004. I suspect that most of the posters are in fact just referring to a time when they or their clique hit a highpoint in their personal enjoyment of the server, and from there generalized that the server as a whole was a better place than it is now. Therein lies the fallacy.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Rico_scorpion » Mon May 31, 2021 7:51 pm

To "what is charisma?", my own answer is very broad and simple: Presence.

Presence cannot be pigeonholed into a straight answer like "attractiveness" nor "outgoingness" nor "magnetism" nor "charm", it's a blurry sum of different aspects that end up giving you as a person more or less presence. So if I play a low charisma character, the average of all these parts has to be "negative", so if the character needs to be "attractive", then i will also play it dull, quiet/passive, and with low magnetism as to end up with a net negative. Which means that yes you can be attractive with low charisma, but then you should have the presence of a beautiful jellyfish.

And the above paragraph is for real life. In Dnd you also have to add the relation to your biological nature/blood/race/innate things.

My two cents.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Marsi » Mon May 31, 2021 11:29 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:34 pm
Posts about "the good old days" have existed since 2004. I suspect that most of the posters are in fact just referring to a time when they or their clique hit a highpoint in their personal enjoyment of the server, and from there generalized that the server as a whole was a better place than it is now. Therein lies the fallacy.
Not only that, but a very conspicuous pro-mechanics culture has been ascendant for much of the last decade -- if anything I think ye olde RP purism is making a comeback.
Drowble Oh Seven wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 3:10 am
I'm sauntering off on tangents of my own, admittedly, but I agree there is a bit of a swing towards action-adventure presently. I'm not convinced it's a bad or lasting thing, though. NWN's been suddenly made available to a lot more people, thanks to EE. My expectation is that, as the years tick on, numbers'll drop down again and we'll likely drift back to that older style of play as each interaction becomes that little bit more special.

In the meantime, there's lots of folks about who might be trying RP for the first time. It's a different era with its own advantages and challenges.
On the contrary I find retrograde PnP protestantism quite common among EE players.

The "Arelithian mode" has always been a mad jumble of action/adventure and smart, but outcome-driven RP. There is little setting enforcement, it's always been about rolling up your own concept and finding your tribe. Those who feel "hardcore RP" must look like slavish observance of RPG mechanics over plain and simple storytelling not only miss the forest for the trees, but don't understand the server they're playing on.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by PaaranDisen » Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:06 am

For what it's worth, I have only ever played Arelith on enhanced edition (Circa 2019) so my critiques by definition cannot have been given with rose-tinted glasses. Re: my proposal to expand the RPR system, this is disconnected from the critique, that is, the critique may still be sound even as the proposed solution is invalid. I don't think it's enough to dismiss one or two ideas out of hand and declare it's unfixable and judging by some of the other posts in this thread, others have noted similar issues. I also don't have a vested interest in the server re: being a player as I am not presently a player and don't see myself returning at least for some time to come.

Anyway, my vision of the expanded 'recommend' or 'tier' or 'reward' system was much more extensive than RPR as it currently stands. The rewards could be much greater than periodical XP ticks. People often like prestige, something visible for their upstanding behavior. The rewards also having a much deeper set of tiers would encourage player aspiration to RP in accordance with some (loose) interpretation of their character sheet.

For those saying people powergaming their attributes isn't a problem at all, or is so little of a problem it need not be addressed, then I'm not sure what else to say but that there is at least one instance of a player (me) being turned away by this, among other things. I do like Arelith, and I'm glad it's thriving, and I'm glad players find it fun generally but it turned out not to be for me for the reasons I've given.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:30 pm

PaaranDisen wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:06 am
For what it's worth, I have only ever played Arelith on enhanced edition (Circa 2019) so my critiques by definition cannot have been given with rose-tinted glasses. Re: my proposal to expand the RPR system, this is disconnected from the critique, that is, the critique may still be sound even as the proposed solution is invalid. I don't think it's enough to dismiss one or two ideas out of hand and declare it's unfixable and judging by some of the other posts in this thread, others have noted similar issues. I also don't have a vested interest in the server re: being a player as I am not presently a player and don't see myself returning at least for some time to come.

Anyway, my vision of the expanded 'recommend' or 'tier' or 'reward' system was much more extensive than RPR as it currently stands. The rewards could be much greater than periodical XP ticks. People often like prestige, something visible for their upstanding behavior. The rewards also having a much deeper set of tiers would encourage player aspiration to RP in accordance with some (loose) interpretation of their character sheet.

For those saying people powergaming their attributes isn't a problem at all, or is so little of a problem it need not be addressed, then I'm not sure what else to say but that there is at least one instance of a player (me) being turned away by this, among other things. I do like Arelith, and I'm glad it's thriving, and I'm glad players find it fun generally but it turned out not to be for me for the reasons I've given.
So I see where you're coming from this... and it's a very aluring idea, and not even a bad idea if I'm honest. I wouldn't personally be against a few more benefits for higher rprs and such. But such things do have to be done carefully.

Because ultimatly when it comes to these sorts of benefits there's two ways of doing things.

1) DM Driven
2) Automated

I'm writing this at about 2pm GMT... it's a pretty quiet time and we currently have 120 players on. Presuming all our DM team were on tat the same time - we'd have about 25ish DMs and those with Dm powers... and this is after welcoming a whole bunch new DMs. This is a large imbalence I think you can agree. And this is at quiet times....
I am a big proponent of the RPR system - but even I have to recognise that its not perfect and not everyone gets through. Our DM team is held to a very high standared when it comes to joining - and also when it comes to conduct. Pard of the reason why we loose DMs so frequently (and note only part - plenty take breaks and/or just find its not for them) is the high standard we keep them to. I trust them to make good decisions when it comes to RpR, and not just to 'up their friends.'
Giving players the power to judge and mechanical award each others rp - beyond what happens already as part of narrative is - imo, rather dangerous.
To give you a sad example, we now semi regularly have to check elections in the major settlments, to make sure that everyone voting has actually done so propertly - that they're current characters who are being roleplayed, who made the decision AS characters and not 'oh well, Bob said on Discord there's an election on and he's my ooc friend, so I rolled up a level 3, zoomed him up to 7 and voted then deleted.'
This sadly happens. Not too often I'm glad to say but this happens. I'm sure that we'd see the same sort of abuse if we opened up this up further mechanically.

I realize this sounds terribly cynical, and truthfully I don't even think that the /majority/ of players would do this. But I think enough of a minority would that it'd make such a system unwieldy.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Kuma » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:37 am

Image

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:27 am

Kuma wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:37 am
Image
I see this as a positive thing. This topic is something that clearly is on a lot of people's minds. That screenshot is a win, in my humble opinion 🙂


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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:52 am

Definitely in keeping with the finest traditions of PnP bickering. This is our peasant railgun.

Also: Marsi was right, I'm a misremembering muppet. It is me who got more action-adventurey. 'course I'm going to see more of it.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Dr. B » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:42 pm

Kuma wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:37 am
Image
It's also a post that gets made every year or so, like most discussions on Arelith.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:11 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:34 pm
Posts about "the good old days" have existed since 2004. I suspect that most of the posters are in fact just referring to a time when they or their clique hit a highpoint in their personal enjoyment of the server, and from there generalized that the server as a whole was a better place than it is now. Therein lies the fallacy.
8-) Cool kids wear shades during the endless night 8-)

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Kuma » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:58 am

Dr. B wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:42 pm
Kuma wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:37 am
Image
It's also a post that gets made every year or so, like most discussions on Arelith.
I have a bingo sheet if you want me to post it.

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:08 am

please

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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by Kuma » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:16 am

Image

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Irongron wrote:

4. No full screen images of the NWN gnome model (might frighten the children)


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Re: Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:40 am

Kuma wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:16 am
. . .
BINGO!

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