Actually Playing a Rogue

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Waldo52
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Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:14 pm

I've slowly managed to get my rogue/blackguard to level 25. I have no regrets and am in love with the character, but I am a little surprised at how even a decently planned rogue can just feel so underwhelming.

I should preface the following comments by acknowledging that much of the power in higher levels comes from gear. I've recently gotten advice on the matter but at the moment I'm poor and fairly under-equipped with just a mithral helmet, three or four+1 dex items and two handaxes (masterly steel and greensteel+fire). With that out of the way I'll make my points.

It's easy to assume that based off experiences from other RPGs and general pop culture assumptions about the rogue that it's gonna be an extremely potent damage dealing class, but actually playing one has been humbling. Sure, your damage in PVE situations can be pretty consistent if someone is guarding you but against other players it's a different story.

***By the way, does the guarding mechanic work in PVP? That might change things up a bit.***

Because of Arelith's requirement for RP to preceed PVP you really can't rely on the rogue's old trick of stabbing a guy to death before he realizes what's happening. I have to start talking and going toe to toe with the enemy, and the minute I see them using scrolls to ward up I know I'm probably going to lose. I'm very into role playing and understand the need for such a rule, and don't think a guy jumping out from the shadows and randomly sneak attacking randos would make for a compelling character, but it needs to be pointed out that fundamental Arelith rules tend to hamper the class.

*Another question: if you're in stealth and a friend is doing the talking, and RP leads to violence is it acceptable for you to jump out and sneak attack the enemy without any introduction? I would argue that if the the RP before PVP requirement was met by your group and your character is role playing a sneaky bastard you're in the clear, but it is an issue I need clarified.*

There are certain tools rogues have to level the playing field, but so far they've been pretty situational. Traps for example are a whole lot of fun, I think of them as the seventh school of magic. But unless you really know an enemy is going to be coming by they're very difficult, as you need to make preparations in advance. I look forward to flashbang grenades, but your typical deep rogue build won't get access to them until 28ish, and based off all my previous experiences doing rogue stuff I'm anticipating that they'll probably be easy to resist and underwhelming. Knockdown is another fun trick and can be good on some spellcasters, but most characters in my experience are practically immune. Darkness scrolls grant free sneak attacks, but using one in battle leaves you squishy rogue badly exposed and the enemy always has the option of just walking away from the dark spot after bludgeoning you.

This is Arelith, so being "bad at PVP" isn't the end of the world if you're having fun in character, but I do love the thrill of the hunt. I wanted to compare notes with other people who've played rogues into a high level and engaged in combat with other players. Do you think I'm losing because I'm fighting people with real gear, or is it probably a skill thing? Maybe just being level 30 will make a big difference. Or is the class fundamentally situational and underpowered?

I will try to end on a semi-positive note and say that as a rogue you have the time of your life when a plan goes well. Blind a guy with a scroll, sneak attack him half to death and drain his strength to oblivion, watch him try to run away as he realizes he can only waddle with 4 strength, land the killing blow. But situations like this have been very rare, which is why I'm looking to find out if this is the typical experience with rogues or if it's just me.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Dr. B » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:29 pm

You're playing arguably the most powerful melee PvP build in the game. There are many ways to win fights on that build. I could give tips, but I won't. Essentially, while it is written in a cordial tone, the post above boils down to a player who gets in to a lot of PvP asking people how to win more, and on a very strong build no less.

I don't think that's a good use of the forums and I that you should do your own legwork. At the very least, ask in a private channel or the Discord 3.0, or go onto PGCC and experiment there.

This much I can say: (1)generally, if you want to win PvP it helps to be geared and properly prepared; and (2) rogues and especially divine rogues don't need to be buffed. You've got Epic Dodge, divine saves, divine shield on top of dexterity AC, Divine Might on top of sneak attacks, blinding speed, grenades, Taunt and access to a lot of skill points. That's an uber-tier build, and the heavy gearing requirements for its multiple attribute dependence seem more than fair.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Morgy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:37 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:14 pm


***By the way, does the guarding mechanic work in PVP? That might change things up a bit.***


*Another question: if you're in stealth and a friend is doing the talking, and RP leads to violence is it acceptable for you to jump out and sneak attack the enemy without any introduction? I would argue that if the the RP before PVP requirement was met by your group and your character is role playing a sneaky bastard you're in the clear, but it is an issue I need clarified.*

1) No guarding only works against NPCs.

2) If your intention is to be a part of pvp, then you need to RP yourself too. Otherwise too many people would just sit around with invis/stealthed gank squads and bait people into pvp. Ask yourself why you'd avoid RP, other than to simply gain a PVP advantage over people you're not even interacting with.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:13 pm

You mention traps and I agree on their usefulness. You really have to be skilled in setting them and anticipate an encounter before they really shine. Otherwise it's a wasted effort. But the reward can be high. Also since you got BG dip then I would look at all the options this class offers (hint: poison).
The thing about rogues is their incredible repertoire of skills and abilities. And gear (umd/lore) for that matter. But head on you probably shouldn't count on winning a whole lot. Make them fight on your terms and strike at their weakness (everybody has one).
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by thimblegiant » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:00 pm

Morgy wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:37 pm
2) If your intention is to be a part of pvp, then you need to RP yourself too. Otherwise too many people would just sit around with invis/stealthed gank squads and bait people into pvp. Ask yourself why you'd avoid RP, other than to simply gain a PVP advantage over people you're not even interacting with.
Is this true? From my experience this seems to be how the typical highwayman in Arelith plies his trade; bully the wanderer and if they don't comply his buddy jumps into the fray when things turn physical. I've only been on the receiving end of this but never saw an issue with the technique. Personally I think it keeps things interesting.

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Waldo52
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:29 pm

thimblegiant wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:00 pm
Morgy wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:37 pm
2) If your intention is to be a part of pvp, then you need to RP yourself too. Otherwise too many people would just sit around with invis/stealthed gank squads and bait people into pvp. Ask yourself why you'd avoid RP, other than to simply gain a PVP advantage over people you're not even interacting with.
Is this true? From my experience this seems to be how the typical highwayman in Arelith plies his trade; bully the wanderer and if they don't comply his buddy jumps into the fray when things turn physical. I've only been on the receiving end of this but never saw an issue with the technique. Personally I think it keeps things interesting.
I agree and would love a ruling or comment from a DM. There's a difference between jumping out of stealth without context, but if the group has already spoken and you're still hiding this seems like reasonable ambush technique.

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Waldo52
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:35 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:29 pm
You're playing arguably the most powerful melee PvP build in the game. There are many ways to win fights on that build. I could give tips, but I won't. Essentially, while it is written in a cordial tone, the post above boils down to a player who gets in to a lot of PvP asking people how to win more, and on a very strong build no less.

I don't think that's a good use of the forums and I that you should do your own legwork. At the very least, ask in a private channel or the Discord 3.0, or go onto PGCC and experiment there.

This much I can say: (1)generally, if you want to win PvP it helps to be geared and properly prepared; and (2) rogues and especially divine rogues don't need to be buffed. You've got Epic Dodge, divine saves, divine shield on top of dexterity AC, Divine Might on top of sneak attacks, blinding speed, grenades, Taunt and access to a lot of skill points. That's an uber-tier build, and the heavy gearing requirements for its multiple attribute dependence seem more than fair.
First of all my post mentioned having no clue if my kind of build was excellent or terrible for PVP, I just didn't know. I lose a lot and wanted to know if that was normal for this type of build. This is a far cry from "help me gank more newbs on my OP build!" I'm a villain, I rob and kill players and engage in PVp. even though I tend to let players live if they surrender and love making people laugh, I make no apologies for being evil or enjoying being a hunter. I also don't see my questions as inappropriate, as I'm a fairly un-knowledgeable player without much high level experience and I'm just asking more knowledgeable people for advice.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Morgy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:53 pm

I can't recall where I saw the post regarding group pvp/not making yourself known prior, but I'm sure it mentioned if your intent is to pvp and you're sat in stealth not actively engaging in RP that is deliberately going avoiding RP interaction and isn't allowed. That is something I can't find on the forums right now, so take it with a pinch.

However, this is a quote from the wiki (referenced to the IG arelith Journal):

"Combat actions and political actions (using our Citizenship System) against other PC's (PvP) MUST BE INTERACTIVELY ROLE PLAYED. That means you interact, they interact, etc: BEFORE any action occurs. No exceptions..."

Sometimes PvP happens very quickly and you would probably be forgiven if you jumped in from stealth immediately after your companions entered combat. However, I doubt it would be looked on favourably if you didn't participate during the course of several minutes of RP, but within seconds joined the fight. Also remember, if you're planning to attack you should be using the dislike function, at which point the player may ooc become aware of you to some extent, which could cause confusion.. Better off just emoting sneaking up behind them to reveal yourself in an intimidating manner or whatever :)
Last edited by Morgy on Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Watchful Glare » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:57 pm

Morgy wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:53 pm
I can't recall where I saw the post regarding group pvp/not making yourself known prior, but I'm sure it mentioned if your intent is to pvp and you're sat in stealth not actively engaging in RP that is deliberately going avoiding RP interaction and isn't allowed. That is something I can't find on the forums right now, so take it with a pinch.

However, this is a quote from the wiki (referenced to the IG arelith Journal):

"Combat actions and political actions (using our Citizenship System) against other PC's (PvP) MUST BE INTERACTIVELY ROLE PLAYED. That means you interact, they interact, etc: BEFORE any action occurs. No exceptions..."
It is most frequent in groups where you have a party of say, 5 of group A, versus 4 of group B.

2 members of group A are stealthed while the hostilities are RP'd between group A and group B, and they do not break stealth to reveal their presence until combat between the two groups start.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Morgy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:03 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:57 pm
Morgy wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:53 pm
I can't recall where I saw the post regarding group pvp/not making yourself known prior, but I'm sure it mentioned if your intent is to pvp and you're sat in stealth not actively engaging in RP that is deliberately going avoiding RP interaction and isn't allowed. That is something I can't find on the forums right now, so take it with a pinch.

However, this is a quote from the wiki (referenced to the IG arelith Journal):

"Combat actions and political actions (using our Citizenship System) against other PC's (PvP) MUST BE INTERACTIVELY ROLE PLAYED. That means you interact, they interact, etc: BEFORE any action occurs. No exceptions..."
It is most frequent in groups where you have a party of say, 5 of group A, versus 4 of group B.

2 members of group A are stealthed while the hostilities are RP'd between group A and group B, and they do not break stealth to reveal their presence until combat between the two groups start.

These situations are often messy, just as we would all expect. I think it boils down to just trying to make fun for everyone and not grabbing every dubious (ooc dubious, not IC obviously) advantage to win a scuffle. If someone is regularly using the tactic of not engaging in the group RP, just to maintain a pvp advantage, they would probably get a DM visit if it was noted.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Curve » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:17 am

There is a difference between 'the cool way' to do PvP and 'what is allowed'. I don't disagree with your points about what would be the best way to engage in PvP, but what is being asked about is not against the rules.

Also, I don't know what the above poster is on about, op. But, this is a fine place to ask about this sort of thing. I see no reason why a private chat would be more appropriate other than you won't get people sword fighting their words over what is right or wrong. I will say that it can be very fun to seek out a trainer in game to learn a lot of PvP tactics and counter tactics. But, yeah- nothing wrong with asking here.

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Waldo52
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:36 am

Curve wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:17 am
There is a difference between 'the cool way' to do PvP and 'what is allowed'. I don't disagree with your points about what would be the best way to engage in PvP, but what is being asked about is not against the rules.

Also, I don't know what the above poster is on about, op. But, this is a fine place to ask about this sort of thing. I see no reason why a private chat would be more appropriate other than you won't get people sword fighting their words over what is right or wrong. I will say that it can be very fun to seek out a trainer in game to learn a lot of PvP tactics and counter tactics. But, yeah- nothing wrong with asking here.
I like Dr. B. I'm starting to think of him as my forum nemesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ztdtvXmrFc

I'd like to remind him again though that I'm not some guy who has been killing every player I've come across, and without RP, for the sake of griefing. He carries himself as someone who knows a lot about Arelith builds and I do know very little, which is why I'm puzzled by his annoyance when I ask for help. When I ask "Why do I lose so much?" he replies that I'm a profoundly overpowered juggernaut who ought not post questions around here, because "reasons?"

I'm not being ironic though, I do love arguing with him. Because unlike my PVP encounters, I tend to come off pretty well in these situations.

Now Dr. B stop being mean and give me your damned advice if ya got it...

Also, it would be really nice to get a DM ruling on this whole stealth/allies RPing thing.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Hazard » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:36 am

Not being able to ambush people from stealth after a fight has started sounds strange to me. This is the most common tactic used by stealth characters.

If this is against the rules then there's a few hundred reports I've failed to make over the years.

I think it is fine to engage from stealth as long as someone in the group was initiating RP. Hope to find out for sure.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Cuchilla » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:19 am

My 10 cent would be to think of a rogue as someone who are too intelligent to engage too much in melee. A rogue who prefers just passing by the enemies (fast speed when stealthed).
When forced to engage, then try either to avoid being hit (epic dodge), or to assist others (sneak attack), or when this is impossible, do someone roguish like activate sneak attack (IKD). And crippling strike.
Either way, be intelligent enough to know your enemies, never attack the stronger ones, and only attack those you know you can cope with..
When everything fails: RUUUUN and disappear!

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by CNS » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:46 am

Think about PvP like this.

When you get epic dodge and have a really high AC and edodge, anyone focusing on you is just going to keep whiffing their attacks again and again and again, you're only doing small amounts of damage but you are doing damage and they are not.

But if that person decides 'this is rubbish I'm going to attack someome else' then you get your sneaks and start to do real damage.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Flower Power » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:34 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:14 pm
I have to start talking and going toe to toe with the enemy, and the minute I see them using scrolls to ward up I know I'm probably going to lose
The instant you see the first ward start to be cast, or the first wand/scroll/potion used, you're also free to immediately "!" and start stabbing them - and I also highly recommend it. If they're going to be a cheeseball and abuse the fact you're willing to have a neat back and forth dialogue with them before the swinging starts in order to finagle a mechanical bonus out over you, you shouldn't feel bad about doing so at ALL.

Starting to buff up, running away/walking away w/o responding to overtly hostile situations (to try to 'game' the "interactive RP rule" as long as it's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS PvP is about to happen), etc., have all been ruled as forms of acceptable interaction with your assailant in the past.
what would fred rogers do?

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Curve » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:45 pm

I am with what Flower Power says above. If someone is being a cheeseball you really have no choice but to respond in kind. If I am even in potentially hostile situations and people start buffing I will either attack or leave. I’ve no interest in playing that type of game or with players who do that kind of mess.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Nitro » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:03 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:29 pm
I don't think that's a good use of the forums and I that you should do your own legwork. At the very least, ask in a private channel or the Discord 3.0, or go onto PGCC and experiment there.
Are you really gatekeeping builds and mechanics questions from the forums?

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Waldo52
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:31 am

Nitro wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:03 pm
Dr. B wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:29 pm
I don't think that's a good use of the forums and I that you should do your own legwork. At the very least, ask in a private channel or the Discord 3.0, or go onto PGCC and experiment there.
Are you really gatekeeping builds and mechanics questions from the forums?
Yeah, I was confused too.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by DM Zinzerena » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:21 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:14 pm

*Another question: if you're in stealth and a friend is doing the talking, and RP leads to violence is it acceptable for you to jump out and sneak attack the enemy without any introduction? I would argue that if the the RP before PVP requirement was met by your group and your character is role playing a sneaky bastard you're in the clear, but it is an issue I need clarified.*
Characters are allowed to engage in active, ongoing PvP without prior interaction. While it's preferred that you offer some form of interaction or contribution to the scene leading up to combat, it is in no way required as other posters have suggested.
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by CNS » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:03 pm

One way that I have seen it handled well is the 'open and social' character drops not so subtle hints there are people hiding. Things like *Looks off to his left a brief moment and nods* or similar. It gives away that someone is there without the stealthed person having to reveal themselves from stealth and remove a bunch of mechanical advantages.

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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:14 pm

Although it feels kind of cheesy, everyone can still see shouting when you're stealthed. Nothing wrong with shouting some taunts out while hidden behind the trees.

Also, gatekeeping of mechanics on any platform and in any form is really not cool. The whole game is more fun when everyone is on a more level playing field. We are here to RP. If you want to have an advantage in PvP go play Fortnite with the other kids. There is no "winning" arelith.
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Re: Actually Playing a Rogue

Post by Anomandaris » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:41 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:14 pm
I've slowly managed to get my rogue/blackguard to level 25. I have no regrets and am in love with the character, but I am a little surprised at how even a decently planned rogue can just feel so underwhelming.

I should preface the following comments by acknowledging that much of the power in higher levels comes from gear. I've recently gotten advice on the matter but at the moment I'm poor and fairly under-equipped with just a mithral helmet, three or four+1 dex items and two handaxes (masterly steel and greensteel+fire). With that out of the way I'll make my points.

It's easy to assume that based off experiences from other RPGs and general pop culture assumptions about the rogue that it's gonna be an extremely potent damage dealing class, but actually playing one has been humbling. Sure, your damage in PVE situations can be pretty consistent if someone is guarding you but against other players it's a different story.

***By the way, does the guarding mechanic work in PVP? That might change things up a bit.***

Because of Arelith's requirement for RP to preceed PVP you really can't rely on the rogue's old trick of stabbing a guy to death before he realizes what's happening. I have to start talking and going toe to toe with the enemy, and the minute I see them using scrolls to ward up I know I'm probably going to lose. I'm very into role playing and understand the need for such a rule, and don't think a guy jumping out from the shadows and randomly sneak attacking randos would make for a compelling character, but it needs to be pointed out that fundamental Arelith rules tend to hamper the class.

*Another question: if you're in stealth and a friend is doing the talking, and RP leads to violence is it acceptable for you to jump out and sneak attack the enemy without any introduction? I would argue that if the the RP before PVP requirement was met by your group and your character is role playing a sneaky bastard you're in the clear, but it is an issue I need clarified.*

There are certain tools rogues have to level the playing field, but so far they've been pretty situational. Traps for example are a whole lot of fun, I think of them as the seventh school of magic. But unless you really know an enemy is going to be coming by they're very difficult, as you need to make preparations in advance. I look forward to flashbang grenades, but your typical deep rogue build won't get access to them until 28ish, and based off all my previous experiences doing rogue stuff I'm anticipating that they'll probably be easy to resist and underwhelming. Knockdown is another fun trick and can be good on some spellcasters, but most characters in my experience are practically immune. Darkness scrolls grant free sneak attacks, but using one in battle leaves you squishy rogue badly exposed and the enemy always has the option of just walking away from the dark spot after bludgeoning you.

This is Arelith, so being "bad at PVP" isn't the end of the world if you're having fun in character, but I do love the thrill of the hunt. I wanted to compare notes with other people who've played rogues into a high level and engaged in combat with other players. Do you think I'm losing because I'm fighting people with real gear, or is it probably a skill thing? Maybe just being level 30 will make a big difference. Or is the class fundamentally situational and underpowered?

I will try to end on a semi-positive note and say that as a rogue you have the time of your life when a plan goes well. Blind a guy with a scroll, sneak attack him half to death and drain his strength to oblivion, watch him try to run away as he realizes he can only waddle with 4 strength, land the killing blow. But situations like this have been very rare, which is why I'm looking to find out if this is the typical experience with rogues or if it's just me.
You're gonna struggle until you get epic dodge and blinding speed. It's also really important to make sure you're very familiar with and have a well thought out hotkey setup. You hvae a lot of tools for different situations and you need to be able to access them quickly depending on the situation. I'd grab a friend, hop into PGCC or an Arena on live server and play about, have some "fun matches" and change the scenarios/opponents. I'm also happy to help teach ya some rogue tricks if you'd like, feel free to pm me :D

Don't be discouraged you can learn to use it well in PvP if you want and it has a ton of potential!

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