Language Lessons

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MRFTW
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Re: Language Lessons

Post by MRFTW » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:00 pm

Loremaster is already an S tier class, I dont think they need more allure.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Cabarcos » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:13 pm

That you can do something doesn't force you, you have a choice, and free will to make it or not.
I assisted to a nice class in which several languages were thaught, and you could see that the master and many people were taking it seriously.
I just learned a bit of dwarven in it, no the other languages. It was what "feel" right for me.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:01 pm

LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:32 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:46 am
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm


This would be great coupled with the chosen language passively going up just by having a language book in your inventory, to represent being able to study it. Something like 1% per server reset, so people actively have to log in to raise it. It would take a long time to master and would still encourage finding other players, but it would be less of a complete brick wall if people can't find other players.
I'm so in support of this! ❤️ What a great idea. This way, those who don't care to actively roleplay learning a language can still have progress that is represented in their character studying their book on their chosen language.
It would also help characters whose backgrounds should definitely include a given language, but due to class spread - it doesn't.

(Like an elf living in Silverymoon probably speaking dwarven due to alliance with mithral hall, or a human in silverymoon speaking elven and stuff like that).

Loremaster kinda helped pick such languages up for me, but it was definitely a challenge figuring out the clash of origin vs actual language abilities.
Just popping my head around the corner to say, to be fair you can spend a minor award and start with an extra language of your cohice! So there is that built in, if you want it.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:57 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:01 pm
LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:32 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:46 am


I'm so in support of this! ❤️ What a great idea. This way, those who don't care to actively roleplay learning a language can still have progress that is represented in their character studying their book on their chosen language.
It would also help characters whose backgrounds should definitely include a given language, but due to class spread - it doesn't.

(Like an elf living in Silverymoon probably speaking dwarven due to alliance with mithral hall, or a human in silverymoon speaking elven and stuff like that).

Loremaster kinda helped pick such languages up for me, but it was definitely a challenge figuring out the clash of origin vs actual language abilities.
Just popping my head around the corner to say, to be fair you can spend a minor award and start with an extra language of your cohice! So there is that built in, if you want it.
That does sound helpful, although not very compatible with other awards (such as noble). None the less, thanks for the heads up!

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by CNS » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:00 pm

The Key Issues
Technical - Large Language Lessons cause (in some cases) unplayable lag across the server its run on
Roleplay - Some people consider a rainbow text spam language lesson (that not all are) or rapid short sentance spam to be gaming the system
Immersion - Language avaliability is very high, if everyone speaks X no one might as well speak X
Gameplay - Learning a language any other way is excrutiatingly slow and boring
Gameplay - Languages don't really follow a natural learning curve in their implimentation (someone 70% fluent can't have a conversation cause close to 1/3rd of everything they hear or say is a garbled mess)

Things to consider
Effort - Some people actually put a lot of creative effort into their language lessons
Desire - People want to speak languages and engage with the language system

Root Cause
The language system itself drives most of this behaviour. Most people don't really find it a fulfilling part of fleshing out their character. Or to put it in my own context, the first time or two you sit down and spend a couple of hours with a tutor of some sort can be great, then you look at your progress and its 6% and that's soul crushing.

People want to learn languages. People want to engage with the system. However its punishingly slow progression and the way it's learned leads to language lessons being the most optimal way to do this outside of spending literal RL months with dull RP or not being understood/understanding others. Which is quite probably even worse than real life, if I immersed myself in a culture speaking a foreign language, or spent alot of time around a native speaker or two who were trying to teach it to me and I studied it how long until I could hold a reasonable conversation in that language? A damn sight quicker than on Arelith I believe (assuming I don't take advantage of language lessons).

Thoughts
Language lessons causing terrible lag is a big deal and shouldn't be allowed to continue in this aspect. As much as someone may love the lessons, or really want to get another few % in dwarven, no matter how much effort and creativity goes into it, the desires of a small group of people shouldn't outweight not only the fun but really the ability to play of the entirity of the rest of a busy server - often during prime time.

Similarly, the language system is clearly something people either want to engage with, or feel they have to. But the effort to be able to properly engage is far to high for modern day arelith.

Proposal
A reworking of the language system to eliminate the need for language lessons and bring back some of the special-ness of languages.

1) Reduce the amount of additional languages that can be learnt. With the addition of Loremaster its now possible to make a character that knows every language in the server. While we should abolsutely allow people to be polygots, every single language is a little much. Reducing the cap and general number of languages that can be learned not only relieves the demands on teaching languages, but also brings it back into no single character can do everything and drives choices again.

1a) Gut feeling it I'd suggest something like half the avaliable languages for a character absolutely specced out to achieve that. With the bulk of characters being able to pick up 1 or 2 and wizards and other int builds perhaps 3 or 4.

1b) Remove the gift of languages from new PC's

2) Give all characters the opportunity to pick a background language (that counts against their cap) as a minor gift on creation

3) Rework how languages are learned to the following:
a) All players get a new ability called teach language, this ability can be targeted on other players. On first use players can permenantly select a language they know so well they can teach it to others.
b) When teach language is activated, the language the teacher has selected can be learned by the subject. Learning progresses fairly rapidly, (extremely rapidly by comparison with today), to the point that spending a few hours in conversation with the teacher with the activated will top off a language
c) While teach language is activated, the teacher and student can understand each other 100% in the language of choice (So they can actually hold a conversation).
d) Remove the current passive way of learning languages - keep or remove books either works
e) Loremasters (perhaps of a certain level or to replace current tutor gift) gain the ability to teach all the languages they know instead of just a single selected language

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Deryliss » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:18 pm

I would just like to be able to learn languages while also engaging in meaningful RP.

One of my previous characters learned Dwarven organically, by hanging out in Brog all the time and listening to dwarves speak. Problem is, you as the learner can't understand a danged thing, so it's awkward to be an active participant in the conversation. The dwarves would much rather just switch to common - and they will, especially if one or two other onlookers come by.

I think I would be happy if using a language book (As in actually using a 'custom power' in the book) would temporarily put you in a 'learning state' where you're able to learn much faster than normal, so that you can maximize those small windows of conversation. Bonus if that learning state also lets you understand most of what's being spoken by increasing the language translation rate. Have it broadcast that your character is consulting a language book, limit it sensibly in some way (per rest, per 24 hours, costs adventure xp, whatever makes sense).

I would rather gain 8% in dwarven from having a chat with my dorf pals than watching a technicolor unintelligible word reel for several RL hours for the same benefit, and as much as I appreciate the effort the organizers put into these language lessons (respect, to anyone who does things like this), it's really hard to keep focus on those. They very quickly just turn into 'watch netflix on monitor two'.
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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Curve » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:23 pm

I agree that the system is not the most enjoyable process. I just think that there is a common idea put out there on the forums sometimes that if a system is not the most fun to interact with, or is hard, or takes time and effort that it makes sense or is justifiable that the system is gamed and abused because players can't handle hard, time consuming things that require effort. That, to me, is a bad and defeatist attitude that only leads to players being able to hold hostage systems by abusing them and claiming that they are too hard to enjoy.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Deryliss » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:31 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:23 pm
I agree that the system is not the most enjoyable process. I just think that there is a common idea put out there on the forums sometimes that if a system is not the most fun to interact with, or is hard, or takes time and effort that it makes sense or is justifiable that the system is gamed and abused because players can't handle hard, time consuming things that require effort. That, to me, is a bad and defeatist attitude that only leads to players being able to hold hostage systems by abusing them and claiming that they are too hard to enjoy.
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." - As per the Soren Johnson quote :)
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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:50 pm

There's a very common misconception with games that grindy = hard. I see it all the time. Now that Monster Hunter Rise came out and has a lot of quality of life added to the series, people are scoffing and saying how easy it is. I'm re-playing older games to see if I got better at the game or if it actually is harder, and what I'm finding is, Rise is actually more difficult. Healing isn't instant, the monster patterns aren't as easy to game. The difference is, old monhun is GRINDY. And for some reason that makes it hard, because you need to spend more time on it.

Time investment isn't difficulty. If it's a grind for grind's sake, you can dress it up however you want and try to make the best of it, but it's always going to be an obstacle for what you actually want to be doing.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by LasharaDyran » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:39 pm

Emotionaloverload wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:43 pm
I appreciate a lot of the concerns mentioned here but I feel that everyone needs to remember that we are playing a game. When things are unfun, people try to find a way to make them easy so that the unfun part can be out of the way faster.
---
...You can stand around the Hub for hours or in a designated lecture until you learn the language OR you can struggle through IG interactions where characters often have to repeat themselves in common (and you cannot reliably use words in that language back without getting gibberish on even simple words even at high numbers like 70%). This is not viewed as great or fun which is why players choose to make it easier.
It IS telling that as a player , I learned to read the untranslated Celestial in intense 1:1 language lessons with a fluent character who for IC reasons does not speak Common.

Meanwhile my character, who technically has a language primer that should help her learn faster than me, is sitting at 22% proficiency. This does not make sense to me, and I agree with Emotional that the process is not enjoyable and painful, and that is probably why players are finding ways to bypass it as fast as they can.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:39 pm

I don't ever blame players for taking advantage of whatever mechanics exist. I wouldn't expect any thread to stop players from having these language sessions but the question is whether mechanics should support them.

The question in my mind is really what purpose languages serve right now since for them to be actually useful and not just RP flavor it has to be the +exception+ not the norm for characters to speak and understand unlikely languages that their race/class normally wouldn't.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:07 pm

I would just like to see a change that makes it mechanically more efficient to study one language at a time. I dont think it would damage most people's RP narratives (at least I dont see how it would) and it would solve the mass language lessons of too many people speaking too many languages, essentially rigging the system and going home with +30% on several languages only to do it again a few days later and eventually reach the cap of their fluent languages with minimal time investment and close to 0 RP for most of them. Like... there are some exceptions and I dont accuse any specific player but it's totally common and I really hate it.
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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Frailman » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:50 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:39 pm
I don't ever blame players for taking advantage of whatever mechanics exist.
I certainly do. The beauty of this server is, in my opinion of course, how the player base generally focuses on what makes good role play rather than how to optimize mechanically.

Have you ever seen a Spanish/French/English/Russian/Chinese/Australian class where they teach all of them at once in one hardcore session, and if you're there to learn Russian you just wait till the Russian round comes around and tune out for the rest?
I've not seen these lessons IG myself, so I might have the wrong idea. But if this is what's happening I'd say it's definitely fair to call into question both the organizers and the attendees RPR.

It seems no better than having an OOC high level friend feed your new wizard a bunch of streams without RP, just trade over and done, just cause you wanted your character to have them.

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-XXX-
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Re: Language Lessons

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:34 am

Don't blame the player, blame the game. Unironically.

Testing the limits of various mechanics and exploring the possibilities IS a part of the fun!

If a mechanic motivates a player to do odd things in order to achieve optimal results, then the problem is with the mechanic - not the player.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Frailman » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:32 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:34 am
Don't blame the player, blame the game. Unironically.

Testing the limits of various mechanics and exploring the possibilities IS a part of the fun!

If a mechanic motivates a player to do odd things in order to achieve optimal results, then the problem is with the mechanic - not the player.
Somwhat disagree, somewhat agree, it's often just an easy excuse for people refusing to control themselves.
Putting someone in a doorway to block it then guarding them from behind to make the monsters just stand and die? Mechanically alright
LG char so I can dip pally for saves on my acting-CN sorc? Mechanically alright

I'd say your argument holds true in video games in general, but I've personally held arelith players to a much higher standard since it's more about stories and and an evolving world (and they have mostly upheld that standard too!)
There's a higher demand of "Should I?" rather than only "Can I?" in this environment, imo

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:36 pm

I want a "language writ-system" where,

- Each character can only have one active "language writ" given to them the local Cordorian Etymology and Linguistics Guild. You can only contribute to learning one language at a time.

- Given writ provides a free language book, that only contributes towards X% of a language, depending on rarity, i.e. an elven starter language book provides 50% of the known language, whereas Jotun might be 10%

- Language books are still around and whatever, but instead contain 1/day "clues" about other existing language artifacts that can increase knowledge. For obvious languages, this could be like "going to Myon", for stuff like Infernal, it could be like, "Reading the runes on the Baatorian gate"

- When you learn a language, this does not mean you can immediately teach it (except for loremasters). Instead, you must either a) remain an active speaker for X amount of time, or b) seek out a higher-tier of language artifacts that cements your understanding.

- Overall, individuals learn languages faster from those who are "native speakers", aka, those who start with said languages at character creation.

- Speaking "forbidden" or "planar" languages has a chance to trigger a planar intervention, when not spoken by those of the aligned class (i.e. "It is the Black Speech, and I dare not utter it here.")

tl;dr I have no problem with game-y language design, I just think language lessons are not a fun game-y language design. We should tie language learning with adventuring, not with tea parties. This might not be immersive or real, but it's a d&d fantasy so who cares.

I'd rather learn languages by uncovering some sacred relic of a bygone time than listening to Paladin McLightface wax and wane in Celestial over lunch.
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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Curve » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:55 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:34 am
Don't blame the player, blame the game. Unironically.
This is a good way for there to be no accountability or personal responsibility and has historically been used by people doing suspect things purely for personal benefit.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:26 pm

Curve wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:55 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:34 am
Don't blame the player, blame the game. Unironically.
This is a good way for there to be no accountability or personal responsibility and has historically been used by people doing suspect things purely for personal benefit.
Accountability or personal responsibility for what exactly? Quality of RP? Supervision over the mechanical side of things? None of that is what players are supposed to be doing...

I mean... what's the proposed solution here?
Are we supposed to try and shame people into restraining themselves over here, while there are still dozens of others barfing rainbow walls of text at each other IG on regular basis regardless?

Ultimately this is a binary issue - it is either allowed by the rules and made possible by the engine or not.
Shadow rules self-imposed by the player community only ever lead to massive advantages for those who simply disregard them (up until the team gets actually involved in some way)

I think that it's naive to think this is the sort of issue that can get resolved by players.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Frailman » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:49 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:26 pm
Curve wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:55 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:34 am
Don't blame the player, blame the game. Unironically.
This is a good way for there to be no accountability or personal responsibility and has historically been used by people doing suspect things purely for personal benefit.
Accountability or personal responsibility for what exactly? Quality of RP? Supervision over the mechanical side of things? None of that is what players are supposed to be doing...

I mean... what's the proposed solution here?
Are we supposed to try and shame people into restraining themselves over here, while there are still dozens of others barfing rainbow walls of text at each other IG on regular basis regardless?

Ultimately this is a binary issue - it is either allowed by the rules and made possible by the engine or not.
Shadow rules self-imposed by the community only ever lead to massive advantages for those who simply disregard them (up until the team gets actually involved in some way)

I think that it's naive to think this is the sort of issue that can get resolved by players.
An abhorrent stance to propose we should all go to the lowest common denominator, as if the people who simply disregard sensible RP getting power is some huge issue that you simply cannot stand for, so you will attain the same power as them regardless of whether it's shit RP or not.

Opinions can be voiced to help form a common culture without hard restrictions or enforced solutions being proposed. That's at the teams discretion. It's not necessarily a binary issue, and the idea that "Shadow rules" (I.e cultural norms) are worthless is unsourceable and wrong.

What a post.

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Re: Language Lessons

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:52 pm

Locking this thread; the dev team is working on a solution.
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