What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

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xanrael
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by xanrael » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:37 pm

The ones that get to me are the "selective knowledge" types. See a level 5 use Grease a few too many times, obviously a foul warlock to smite. The even or greater level shooting laser beams from their eyes without pause like they're Cyclops, probably just a friendly sorcerer *pockets holy symbol*.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:57 pm

This has been a problem with anything new for as long as I've been here. I had to change the hexblade vfx from the original version because people were suddenly being accused of being hexblades because they had a negative vfx on their weapon at level 3 - something that already existed forever on blade thirst, loot weapons, spellswords, etc. and no one ever said a word about it until hexblade came out. Your character doesn't know about the class list, or what classes are, or that there are suddenly new classes. They don't know the mechanical difference between someone being a "rogue" or a "scout," one of which is a mechanical option and the other isn't. There are deities and spells and classes that exist in the world but aren't a mechanical option, and whether or not those get added in the future shouldn't EVER affect your rp.

Please stop using ooc mechanics to justify bad rp and unfun interactions. There is no winning arelith. The way to "win" is by telling a memorable story, which, as hard as it may be for your ego, usually involves losing, or letting others have fun, or adding to their story instead of pushing your own. The difference between a game like this and something like skyrim is that you are not the protaganist. Your character isn't special. They're not the chosen one, and they definitely shouldn't be a vessel for you to "win" over others. The most fun that can be had on this server is when you put more emphasis on a good story than on your characters "goals."
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by MRFTW » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:06 pm

I'd be really hyped for some lockhunting-gone-wrong where some innocent sorcs get strung up by mistake.

I'd also be really hyped if sorcs were treated as untrustworthy, too. Unless I've misread (entirely possible), sorcs in lore are generally not trusted due to their mixed heritage, whereas here they get hugboxed into the arcane tower. It's not an avenue I've had a real opportunity to explore IC so there could be some good reasoning for it.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Kuma » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:20 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:57 pm
This has been a problem with anything new for as long as I've been here. I had to change the hexblade vfx from the original version because people were suddenly being accused of being hexblades because they had a negative vfx on their weapon at level 3 - something that already existed forever on blade thirst, loot weapons, spellswords, etc. and no one ever said a word about it until hexblade came out. Your character doesn't know about the class list, or what classes are, or that there are suddenly new classes. They don't know the mechanical difference between someone being a "rogue" or a "scout," one of which is a mechanical option and the other isn't. There are deities and spells and classes that exist in the world but aren't a mechanical option, and whether or not those get added in the future shouldn't EVER affect your rp.

Please stop using ooc mechanics to justify bad rp and unfun interactions. There is no winning arelith. The way to "win" is by telling a memorable story, which, as hard as it may be for your ego, usually involves losing, or letting others have fun, or adding to their story instead of pushing your own. The difference between a game like this and something like skyrim is that you are not the protaganist. Your character isn't special. They're not the chosen one, and they definitely shouldn't be a vessel for you to "win" over others. The most fun that can be had on this server is when you put more emphasis on a good story than on your characters "goals."
i wish signatures could be long enough to have this in there because boy howdy-

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Flower Power » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:11 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:06 pm
I'd be really hyped for some lockhunting-gone-wrong where some innocent sorcs get strung up by mistake.

I'd also be really hyped if sorcs were treated as untrustworthy, too. Unless I've misread (entirely possible), sorcs in lore are generally not trusted due to their mixed heritage, whereas here they get hugboxed into the arcane tower. It's not an avenue I've had a real opportunity to explore IC so there could be some good reasoning for it.
Sorcerers mostly aren't trusted because the majority of magocracies or major arcane institutions despise them, and also because half the time they accidentally burn down the barn when their powers first come out during puberty.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:26 pm

There's a matter of scale too. A level 3 warlock is a dabbler in dark arts, not someone who's going summon an infernal army to burn down Cordor. They're like a teenager spray painting devil signs on the high school walls. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for your do-gooder to give them a stern talking to and maybe even make an effort to save their soul and set them on a path to salvation before going down a dark path? But instead the prevailing attitude is out them and smash them like they're the embodiment of Mephistopheles himself. (That's not just a warlock thing, it's anything shifty really).

Let this stuff simmer a little. Let the warlock who's trying to lay low while they level do their thing if they're clearly trying to hide who they are and if you catch one maybe the response could be in proportion to their level and actual threat. I know, your badass paladin is a righteous zealot and that's great, but as a player you could choose to be a little more flexible so you can let that warlock become an actual interesting threat later instead of another character driven to quit because they can't even finish a writ.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Killer on the drive home » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:07 pm

I wouldn't call someone capable of forming a pact just a dabbler, admittedly.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by -slave » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:47 pm

Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:26 pm
There's a matter of scale too. A level 3 warlock is a dabbler in dark arts, not someone who's going summon an infernal army to burn down Cordor. They're like a teenager spray painting devil signs on the high school walls. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for your do-gooder to give them a stern talking to and maybe even make an effort to save their soul and set them on a path to salvation before going down a dark path? But instead the prevailing attitude is out them and smash them like they're the embodiment of Mephistopheles himself. (That's not just a warlock thing, it's anything shifty really).

Let this stuff simmer a little. Let the warlock who's trying to lay low while they level do their thing if they're clearly trying to hide who they are and if you catch one maybe the response could be in proportion to their level and actual threat. I know, your badass paladin is a righteous zealot and that's great, but as a player you could choose to be a little more flexible so you can let that warlock become an actual interesting threat later instead of another character driven to quit because they can't even finish a writ.
The problem is that you're asking for nuance from a population and a community which largely has never, ever let it exist.

In most places in Forgotten Realms for example, you have dark gods being much more prevalent in terms of lay worshippers and the like all over major cities and people don't usually get executed publicly for it, nor do they for being like "Oh, yeah I'm a Banite." But if you do that here some paladin is going to go and execute you in the middle of the street for 'justice' or whatever even if you literally haven't done anything wrong.

I have never in all the years I've played here expected anything less because of how this happens actually daily. And if anyone ever finds out about any of these things expected to become public enemy number one.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Ork » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:08 pm

-slave wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:47 pm
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:26 pm
There's a matter of scale too. A level 3 warlock is a dabbler in dark arts, not someone who's going summon an infernal army to burn down Cordor. They're like a teenager spray painting devil signs on the high school walls. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for your do-gooder to give them a stern talking to and maybe even make an effort to save their soul and set them on a path to salvation before going down a dark path? But instead the prevailing attitude is out them and smash them like they're the embodiment of Mephistopheles himself. (That's not just a warlock thing, it's anything shifty really).

Let this stuff simmer a little. Let the warlock who's trying to lay low while they level do their thing if they're clearly trying to hide who they are and if you catch one maybe the response could be in proportion to their level and actual threat. I know, your badass paladin is a righteous zealot and that's great, but as a player you could choose to be a little more flexible so you can let that warlock become an actual interesting threat later instead of another character driven to quit because they can't even finish a writ.
The problem is that you're asking for nuance from a population and a community which largely has never, ever let it exist.

In most places in Forgotten Realms for example, you have dark gods being much more prevalent in terms of lay worshippers and the like all over major cities and people don't usually get executed publicly for it, nor do they for being like "Oh, yeah I'm a Banite." But if you do that here some paladin is going to go and execute you in the middle of the street for 'justice' or whatever even if you literally haven't done anything wrong.

I have never in all the years I've played here expected anything less because of how this happens actually daily. And if anyone ever finds out about any of these things expected to become public enemy number one.
While nuance has never been arelith's strongsuit, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it. Being a good roleplayer is a skill that is learned over time, and experiences shared with other good roleplayers. I'd like to think as people mature and engage with other quality roleplayers that they learn to be inclusive, share the spotlight (or really, direct the spotlight on others), and provide unique opportunities to tell new and interesting stories.

There are a lot of players already doing all these things, and there are some players that don't. I understand how new-players might use the wiki or mechanics to insert themselves into the story, and I don't mind that as much. I am more alarmed by experienced and mature players that prove to be narcissistic by stealing and hording the spotlight, being seclusive with who they tell their story with, and do the same old same old every day of their character's lives.

Be better. And to the new roleplayers that are reading this thread ashamed or concerned that their actions are what is being discussed here, know that there's some great individuals in this community you can learn from. And to the people that are being negatively impacted by players making poor choices, there is still stories to tell when being outed! There are still people on this server you can trust to be collaborative.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Aradin » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:47 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:08 pm
And to the people that are being negatively impacted by players making poor choices, there is still stories to tell when being outed! There are still people on this server you can trust to be collaborative.
I very strongly second this. I can attest to this having played an outed warlock who not only lived on the surface but thrived there, running a faction that collaborated with settlements and other "good" factions. Even goodly-aligned characters worked with & tolerated my warlock (depending on the context; other times I was indeed attacked) and a lot of fun came from the underlying tension.

If you give those around you quality roleplay, I've found you often receive it in return. People are a lot more willing to give the warlock with a story to tell a chance to tell that story than they are the warlock who's here to dungeon run & eldritch blast their way to the top of the food chain. Like Garrbear said you don't really "win" in Arelith, and accepting and rolling with the punch of getting outed (even if it's in a dumb way) can potentially make for a more impactful story in the long run.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:49 pm

The win mentality is real. People straight up do not want warlocks on the surface, period. I hung up a letter pointing studious warlocks to the Arcane Tower. Someone came to speak, arguing that because shadow mages are banned so are warlocks. And then basically went "let me speak to your manager."

I get it that peoples' characters might be against warlocks, but trying to shove absolutely everyone into Andunor makes for an unfun overall narrative. It's extremely win mentality, and people brush it off with "well they were open." While yes, there are obnoxious murderhobo warlocks, that most certainly is not every case. Should we expect every single outed character to go to Andunor or roll? That is really harmful to the server narrative, and it removes the possibility for long lasting narratives with villains rising up and doing interesting things. In order for antagonists to exist on the surface, they need a place to go when they lose. A lair to hide in, a place to go where they can be safe while they come up with their next scheme.

The notion of "Well they can just go to Andunor, that's for evil" ends up killing potential for more intense evil vs evil conflicts, where a warlock or necromancer may actively oppose monsters or things that are Andunor. Andunor is a really over the top evil place, full of every kind of depravity you can imagine. Shoving everyone there removes degrees of amorality.

It's not even about good vs evil, warlocks can be neutral. We're not talking about evil RP here. Characters should actually do evil things before they're treated that way.

I'm not saying that warlocks, necromancers, and whatever else should be welcome with open arms everywhere. This isn't the case- They should be barred entry from places. Having people welcome everywhere is just as bad for the narrative as ensuring entire classes are removed from the surface. There should be pockets where people can go and do various kinds of antagonistic RP.

People end up going "Well they end up RPing with Andunor, so therefore trying to kill them off is ok," but the reality is Andunor has a strong antagonist scene. When I was playing a thief, Andunor was the only place actually hiring and interested in rogue work. It was frustrating because I wanted to get a surface scene going, but absolutely everyone I met doing it is in Andunor.

It becomes a cycle of people try evil/criminal RP, end up not having anyone to interact with but Andunor, and getting removed from the surface because of interactions with Andunor. Until there's a scene for it on the surface, surfacers are going to be interacting with Andunorians. It's going to have to take time for things to change, and that won't happen as long as people are stomping out antagonists for speaking with Andunor. "Andunor is full of monsters" is a reason that can't be argued with. And this is the problem with not having surface spots or a surface scene- There can't be layers of amorality. It's all a ridiculous self-feeding cycle.

Part of me wishes Andunor didn't exist. Not for anything they've done, but because then people couldn't use it as an excuse to gatekeep anymore.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Skane » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:50 pm

Killer on the drive home wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:07 pm
I wouldn't call someone capable of forming a pact just a dabbler, admittedly.
Waltz into the Cordor Archives and form a pact with one of the imps.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:35 am

It's not even about good vs evil, warlocks can be neutral.
Yeah and I think there's room for some tolerance of warlocks who don't pact to well-known and commonly feared and hated evils. Starlocks in particular might have a case to study in the Arcane Tower since what they're pacting with is really obscure and probably fascinating to knowledge seekers. Not that they should be welcome anywhere and everyone on the surface but their strange and indifferent patrons aren't like conventional demons and devils.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:46 am

All warlocks can be that way. My character had an abyssal warlock come to him, wanting to understand how to be better at magic. She took the pact because she wanted to be stronger, to kill off drow that were hunting down her and her friends. This is a very far cry from someone actively being a demonologist and trying to appease dark entities or become more like them. I'd like to see how individual people approach their character concept and pact.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Kuma » Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:33 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:46 am
All warlocks can be that way. My character had an abyssal warlock come to him, wanting to understand how to be better at magic. She took the pact because she wanted to be stronger, to kill off drow that were hunting down her and her friends. This is a very far cry from someone actively being a demonologist and trying to appease dark entities or become more like them. I'd like to see how individual people approach their character concept and pact.
The fact that fiendlocks are no longer locked into "must summon fiends to be able to play the game", this angle has become far more viable and valid, which can only be a good thing.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Killer on the drive home » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:00 am

Skane wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:50 pm
Killer on the drive home wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:07 pm
I wouldn't call someone capable of forming a pact just a dabbler, admittedly.
Waltz into the Cordor Archives and form a pact with one of the imps.
Imps only coerce acts of evil. Good luck with your diplomacy from there running up to hostile fiends and offering a hilarious meal.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Skibbles » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:06 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:49 pm
The notion of "Well they can just go to Andunor, that's for evil" ends up killing potential for more intense evil vs evil conflicts, where a warlock or necromancer may actively oppose monsters or things that are Andunor.
There's a lot of legitimate concerns in this post that stretch far beyond just the subject of Warlocks.

I admit they could be rose-colored glasses from a distant past, but in my opinion there was far more nuance to villiany when we didn't have things like the Outcast tag (worry not - this is a segue). I seem to recall a time when evil characters/factions openly fought against 'Andunor,' yet remained on the fringe of surface society living between the two worlds because it was physically impossible to tell the difference between the two unless one was actively involved in the story.

Making villains less identifiable at a mere glance might alleviate a lot of these troubles. No amount of pro-tip posts we can make on the forums will help. Real change will have to come by mechanical tweaks, but ironically that might be how we got here in the first place to fix the very real inverse problem.

I feel like Arelith needs a little more Uncertainty. The less mechanical 'tells' there are of a villain, the more that villain's villainy will have to be judged in RP.

The disguise change to "Quotations" seemed universally celebrated for these very reasons: it added subtle uncertainty with a great middle ground. No longer were they (Disguised), but instead merely had another name. It's not bulletproof, it wasn't completely erased, but it helped. We need more things like this I think.

Do warlocks really need fire-eyes? Must Hexblades/Rangers absolutely have evil red sword? Does a fresh-off-the-boat outcast need to be more infamous than peak Vance Gravelle? Do Monks need alignment-eyes? What if all casters had infinicast low-scaling cantrips that muddy up the waters between 'bad magic' vs 'just magic' for use in group settings just to make it impossible to really know for sure?

Sometimes I wonder what would happen to RP if every single magic/weapon/eye effect was a single neutral blue and spellcraft checks reported only the spell school.

Conflict is central to any decent story ever told, and tea-time is also a threat to the setting, but sometimes I feel like conflict has been mechanically railroaded so much that we're missing the forest for the trees on what makes conflict exciting in the first place.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:15 am

It makes zero sense that someone would simply assume that "casting many spells" = warlock. From a lore standpoint, that is.

Firstly, we have the Arelith Weavemasters, an old, grandfathered sorcerer path, and they can cast unlimited spells.

And secondly, there are prestige classes in the 3.5 Forgotten Realms source material world who are capable of focused unlimited casting. Classes such as the Spellfire Channeler, who by the way has glowy eyes as well. Warlocks actually don't have glowy eyes without certain few invocations in lore.

To assume that a character is a warlock and not a Spellfire Channeler, to use the above example, is purely metagaming. It's knowing that on Arelith you will never run into a Spellfire Channeler, but you will definitely run into a warlock.

It's blatant metagaming. Unless you succeeded on that Spellcraft check, there is no way your character can know it's a warlock. Yes, even with glowy eyes.


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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:52 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:15 am
It makes zero sense that someone would simply assume that "casting many spells" = warlock. From a lore standpoint, that is.

Firstly, we have the Arelith Weavemasters, an old, grandfathered sorcerer path, and they can cast unlimited spells.

And secondly, there are prestige classes in the 3.5 Forgotten Realms source material world who are capable of focused unlimited casting. Classes such as the Spellfire Channeler, who by the way has glowy eyes as well. Warlocks actually don't have glowy eyes without certain few invocations in lore.

To assume that a character is a warlock and not a Spellfire Channeler, to use the above example, is purely metagaming. It's knowing that on Arelith you will never run into a Spellfire Channeler, but you will definitely run into a warlock.

It's blatant metagaming. Unless you succeeded on that Spellcraft check, there is no way your character can know it's a warlock. Yes, even with glowy eyes.
...On the other hand, I'm fairly certain if we looked at the player numbers, the amount of warlocks on Arelith alone (much less the rest of FR) probably exceeds the entire totality of known Spellfire Channelers in FR by a multiple upwards of a hundred. I'd argue that without an incredibly high lore (Knowledge: Arcana) skill, that Spellfire Channelers are so rare it's metagaming to point out they could be a spellfire channeler and not a warlock, since while stories of people pacting with foul entities are commonplace, there aren't a great many people outside the prestige level of Elminster who even know Channelers exist or what they are, much less the source of their near-unique access to raw Magic itself.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet if I spent four hours walking around Cordor, I'd meet more warlocks than documented Channelers in the entire history of FR. Just saying.

People tend to jump really far into the realm of unreasonable to force other characters to be ignorant of something they should be doing a better job of concealing if they don't want it known, IMO, and I'm sorry, but this entire line of argument (except for the spellcraft check) falls into that field.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Red_Wharf » Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:00 am

Skibbles wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:06 am
Does a fresh-off-the-boat outcast need to be more infamous than peak Vance Gravelle?
I hate outcasts to begin with. I would prefer if the mechanics and the tag just didn't exist at all. What would happen to the humans and half-orcs who start in Andunor? I don't know, nothing? Let them become "outcasts" by their own merit instead through roleplay and nothing else?

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Killer on the drive home » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 am

Skibbles wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:06 am
Do Monks need alignment-eyes?
It's actually a mechanical limitation-

Sorry. This post was actually really good and dialed in on a lot of my long running irks with Arelith right now. Honestly, I think pirate/Radiant Heart/Outcast are all pretty atrocious. When I made a paladin for the first time, I felt like I was putting a bit of a target on myself. When I proceeded to join the Radiant Heart, I felt like I was asking for it now.

The tag issue actually stems two ways, and further validates that issue of expected identity. Ive quite literally seen random Underdark players just make sport of killbashing Radiant Heart members and sometimes it's historically involved a diviner. So yeah, I was legitimately concerned to join the Radiant Heart. I felt it would hurt my ability to perform roleplay, as people would now be more inclined due to my tag to fight me. I'd really prefer to explain that in character if it's relevant to a conversation instead and make it apart of the roleplay when I want to make it apart of it.

It felt like a turn on not being able to rp with evils tag.
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Nitro » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:23 am

I've always been staunchly opposed to tags. It's a shortcut that just removes the RP steps to find out if someone is actually a pirate/outcast/radiant heart and puts a clear team label on those characters.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:40 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:06 am
Making villains less identifiable at a mere glance might alleviate a lot of these troubles. No amount of pro-tip posts we can make on the forums will help. Real change will have to come by mechanical tweaks, but ironically that might be how we got here in the first place to fix the very real inverse problem.
I don't think that will even fix it. The people doing a wider variety of antagonistic/villain/evil RP all went to Andunor. The Erudite Arcanum is absolutely amazing to RP with any time I've been able to interact with its members. Why would anyone ever consider making a necromancer or warlock for the Arcane Tower, if the Erudite Arcanum exists? I can't speak for current thieves guilds, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were meeting with Lavok or others like him. This is what I mean when I say the scene for a lot of stuff is in Andunor. As long as you can find that RP in Andunor and it's an uphill battle to try and get it going on the surface, it's not going to return to the surface. The earth was salted and it's going to take a lot of effort from players to try and nourish getting some sort of surface culture going. The only thing I can recommend is if there was a concentrated effort to stop surfacers hunting surfacers over being in Andunor. I've done this in the past, I'm part of the problem. And I am trying to change what I do.

The problem is so bad I don't even have a good catch-all term for the character types impacted by it. I hate saying "evil RP" when not all characters are evil. Villain RP isn't right either. Nor is antagonistic, because not all will be antagonists. Not all evil characters are meant to be hidden either, such as Banites, who also may not be evil.

"Surface evil" certainly exists, as on a character sheet. But it's a very limited thing, held back by people who argue "just keep it hidden."

magistrasa
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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by magistrasa » Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:44 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:40 pm
Why would anyone ever consider making a necromancer or warlock for the Arcane Tower, if the Erudite Arcanum exists? I can't speak for current thieves guilds, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were meeting with Lavok or others like him. This is what I mean when I say the scene for a lot of stuff is in Andunor. As long as you can find that RP in Andunor and it's an uphill battle to try and get it going on the surface, it's not going to return to the surface.
I think this overlooks the fact that villainous roleplay can't actually be villainous without a protagonist to antagonize. The way you phrase this makes it seem like the two worlds are safely quarantined from one another, but it's really more of a one way street: Everything that happens in the Underdark revolves around the Surface in some way or another. Everyone's trying to get up there, everyone's trying to make an impact, everyone's trying to hold some influence over the above-ground goings-on - and, well, there's really not a lot of avenues for the Underdark to interact with the Surface, outside of the occasional settlement raid and (usually pre-coordinated) slavery subplot. There's a lot of reasons for this, but I'd agree that the abundance of obvious tells to figure out who's what class or alignment plays a big part in it.

To answer the rhetorical questions I quoted, though: The reason why an evil surface wizard joins the Arcane Tower, or the reason why an evil rogue starts a gang in hyper-authoritarian Cordor, is the same reason why they play an evil character to begin with. You want to experience conflict. The conflict is the entire point. Someone playing a warlock makes their character anticipating being found out, and probably even looks forward to it. Drow disguise themselves and sneak up to the surface hoping to get spotted. Nothing is more exciting! And that's an experience you can only get through interaction with the Surface.

The Underdark needs the Surface. But the Surface doesn't need the Underdark. The sense of segregation is very much real, and it's led to an Underdark atmosphere that at various points feels crushingly stagnant. The fact that evil is only really able to meaningfully interact with evil isn't a good thing. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who enjoys the state of affairs. Some of that is definitely due to player attitude, but the player attitude is at various points reinforced by mechanics. If a member of civilized society is able to read a description, or look at VFX, and see plainly that a person is Evil with a capital E as if they have a glowing neon sign over their head, the only sensible thing for that member of civilized society to do is ostracize the evil individual and meet them with hostility and revulsion. The utter lack of ambiguity is ruinous to nuanced storytelling.

Anyways, this got a bit tangential. Uh, to bring it back to the main point... Yeah, I'd love for there to be a bit more mysticism on the server. Too many people know everything about everything, and are entirely unwilling to subject themselves to the vulnerability of ignorance. That's sort of human nature though, I think. No one wants to be seen as wrong, or stupid, so in general we like to act as if we are authorities on whatever subject matter we happen to be talking about. I mean, hell, I have three paragraphs in this post alone demonstrating just that. "Well, actually, this is the way things are, and you're wrong, so, 8-) " I think the ability to accept the fact that you don't know things, and the willingness to portray a lack of knowledge, is a mark of maturity. And, contrary to the age that is considered adulthood, I think most people are kinda immature in that regard. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about that, either from a DM side or dev side or player side or good side or evil side. Except, like, deleting the entire wiki and embracing the furthest extremes of our FOIG policy.

...Dude, we should totally do that for April Fool's one year.

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Re: What is with all the meta on warlocks right now?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:56 pm

My experiences vary significantly from yours. I find it absolutely impossible to drum up any interest in things with surfacers, it's always underdarkers who end up interested. And I don't like OOC coordinating with people to make characters to form a group, which seems to be how other people do it.

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