Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

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Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Irongron » Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:43 pm

As many of you know it is not generally my policy to address specific instances and complaints here on the forum, and players are asked not to do the same. The reasons for this, if not already apparent, are not easily discussed without forming a whole new thread on the subject, which I'm not currently intending. However there was a recent event which was, effectively, a repetition of a scenario played out a great many times over the years – the same patterns, the same complaints and accusations and the same resulting demotivation among many of our veteran players. Rather than answer a number of individual PMs, appeals and reports, I want to talk about the issue more broadly, and notify players of a resulting mechanical change coming to Arelith today, one I hope may serve to limit such problems in future.

More broadly then; I spend a lot of my time dealing with the fallout from hostile encounters between players, almost every time there is a raid, a pirate invasion, a confrontation with Banites, settlement conflict, or any large scale PvP, there are people coming away from it aggrieved in some way – sometimes with their fellow players, sometimes with staff, core mechanics or server rules (and of course sometimes this can be entirely correct). I've been known to publicly wonder why it is that certain players build and play spoiling for a fight, but can seem so incapable of actual enjoying it with just getting mad as hell? I admit, this is cynical on my part, but I ask why people are clearly putting themselves in a position that will provoke PVP encounters, while not really being able to handle the consequences – the other side cheated, the DMs were bias, it was metagamed – there so often seems to be a reason why the outcome was unfair.

As a player I see this too, I think many of you have. Getting bombarded with tells by a player raging over someone else's behavior, people privately calling out other factions on Discord for being a collection of trolling ne'er-do-well's that blight the server to satisfy their own to grandstanding power trips. X is metagamer, Y is an elitist troll. There is a reason why some players run a mile at the hint of PvP, or would rather it wasn't a feature of Arelith at all, while others can quit as a result of it.

One thing I constantly repeat when mediating such conflicts is to trying to help one group see another is not all bad. To diffuse the bad blood, and encourage a more objective view. We all get tunnel vision when limited to our group channels or friend grounds, but the truth is, when one group of players believe another has acted badly, the same is often entirely true in the other direction, and always the truth is somewhere in-between. Navigating this, for our DM Team can be an absolute minefield, in one single ruling they might be called out as heavy handed, deaf to complaints, complacent, playing favorites or morally negligent by different parties involved. There is rarely one clear way to apportion blame, and rarely one fix-all solution.

Personally, I like PvP. I always have. I like the feeling of my pulse racing, the excitement as my hand trembles on the quick slots, the heightened emotions and potential consequences, but, possibly because of this, we often operate on a hair trigger – the PvP itself isn't a problem, but rather how quickly it escalates – there is barely room to roleplay at all before someone instigates the firefight.

A band of pirates is seen entering Nexus Falls, there are drow in the forest, or surfacers descending the Minmir Caves. A lynch party is quickly formed, buffs are deployed and players start running towards the enemy. There is only time for a few lines of roleplay before the AoE's are firing, and so very often it just feels like a wasted opportunity, an anti-climatic mess, and people come away from the encounter feeling royally pissed off to have been subjected to it.

Yet, it almost always happens exactly that way - If the definition of madness is truly repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result, then Arelith really is an asylum for the deranged.

I know it is hard, but, well, here are a few bullet points that may help.

- Please try to give space for a narrative, and for roleplay. If you see a group of your enemies, try engaging them in RP, developing a story together. Sometimes the PvP will not be necessary, and very least it may be more sensible. Why not the two leaders challenge themselves to a duel? Or one group swallows their pride and backs down? In the end this may be more rewarding. Even if it's only a few more minutes of actual roleplay before the killing starts, many might enjoy it more.

- Don't go starting a fight if you can't finish it, or rather handle the consequences. If 15 pirates go marching into the Radiant Heart don't be too shocked if it soons descends into chaos.

- Remember NWN is not Warhammer Fantasy Battle – large scale battles just don't work. There will be performance issues, and it is unlikely to be an enjoyable experience.


Finally a word on transitions, and the ability to abuse them. Such fallout from PVP events routinely features reports of transition abuse – players retransitioning over and over, or dying from AoE spells before they've loaded into an area. Of course laying down an AoE over an area transition is a clear rule break, and will be answered by the DM team, but it can also simply happen by accident, or at least be unavoidable if that is where the fighting is taking place, and often does.

I've therefore asked the development staff, today, to update our scripts so characters will remain invulnerable for 3 seconds after transitioning into a new areas. This will be on a roughly 20 second cooldown, so don't expect to avoid death indefinitely by endless switching areas. We are also looking at the possibly of adding a further 6 second cooldown before one can transition again.

So after you transition to a new area

- You are invulnerable for 3 seconds
- Cannot transition again for a further 6 seconds
- Will not receive transition invulnerability more than once in a 20 second period.

I hope some of the above insight and changes help, and I'd ask that players do not respond to this thread by naming specific instances of PvP, or by calling out other players and factions, but by all means share any thoughts or input on the topic (PLEASE in a friendly manner). There are always two sides to such stories, and I hate to see bad blood form within our community as a result of something which should ideally be fun for all of us.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:45 pm

With ranks formed and weapons drawn, King Arthur’s army and Mordred’s army tensely confronted each other across a large field.

Before the battle, Arthur and Mordred came together for one last meeting.

Neither leader trusted the other, so they ordered their knights to attack immediately if anyone pulled their sword.

Surrounded by a small band of knights, Arthur and Mordred held their discussion. While they spoke, a snake slithered through the grass and bit a knight on the heel.

Acting on reflex, the knight pulled his sword. Both armies saw the flash of the sword.

Suddenly, the ranks of knights gave a shout and advanced into battle. For the next several hours, England’s greatest knights slaughtered each other, until only two were left standing.

Mordred lay dead, killed by Arthur, who now staggered off the field, mortally wounded.
From: - https://zippyfacts.com/how-did-king-art ... excalibur/

The larger the mob, the more likely things are to go wrong. You can have 100 people entirely ready to talk and to roleplay - all be it in a tence situation. But if you just have one or two in that group ready to jump at the merest opportunity, things go sideways fast, especialy wnen PvP tends to favour who fires first.

The take away? The larger the group, the more likely things are to go badly wrong.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Emotionaloverload » Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:06 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:43 pm
- Please try to give space for a narrative, and for roleplay. If you see a group of your enemies, try engaging them in RP, developing a story together. Sometimes the PvP will not be necessary, and very least it may be more sensible. Why not the two leaders challenge themselves to a duel? Or one group swallows their pride and backs down? In the end this may be more rewarding. Even if it's only a few more minutes of actual roleplay before the killing starts, many might enjoy it more.
Thank you for saying this! Its really good to see this sentiment since Pvp seems to be the go to -first- step for a lot of IG slights or issues.



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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Aradin » Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:15 pm

I think it's good of you to address this, IG. While the mechanical changes you've put in may help an aspect of PvP salt, I think the issues surrounding PvP - and the idea of how to have PvP that is fun and meaningful for all involved parties - are more a matter of server culture on Arelith. When I was a newer player there were certainly dos and don'ts of player interaction I flubbed on, not because I intended to do so maliciously, but simply because I didn't have a good feel for the server culture and didn't yet understand how to navigate tense scenarios. If I didn't know the etiquette, dropping an AoE spell on a transition would just seem like an effective use of a spell, you know?
So if nothing else, the (hopefully) productive and respectful conversation that will take place in this thread can help get folks on the same track when it comes to PvP. I echo 100% putting yourself in your opponents' shoes. Recognizing that they're another human being like you playing a game in their free time for fun, asking yourself if how you're acting is at all a fun experience for them, and so on.

One tactic I recommend for any PvP: if you've just been involved in a battle and your side came out on top, consider sending players from the opposite side a /tell and checking in with them to make sure they had fun. If they don't respond, well, you extended a gracious hand and that's something to be respected in and of itself. If they do respond and said they had fun, great! And if they didn't, then that's their chance to let you know why - and you can learn from that. This has been, for me at least, a terrific way to learn how to make conflict more fun for all involved parties.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Dr. B » Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:40 pm

I agree with all the points re: Mass PvP being generally toxic.

Regarding a six second cooldown on area transitions: this just doesn't sound worth the tediousness it's going to cause. Looking for a merchant and went into the wrong building? Gotta wait six seconds. Took a wrong turn in the Weald caves? Gotta wait six seconds. Accidentally transitioned while your friend is being wrecked by spawns? Gotta wait six seconds. I really don't think the general headache will be worth the benefits.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Irongron » Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:44 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:40 pm
I agree with all the points re: Mass PvP being generally toxic.

Regarding a six second cooldown on area transitions: this just doesn't sound worth the tediousness it's going to cause. Looking for a merchant and went into the wrong building? Gotta wait six seconds. Took a wrong turn in the Weald caves? Gotta wait six seconds. Accidentally transitioned while your friend is being wrecked by spawns? Gotta wait six seconds. I really don't think the general headache will be worth the benefits.
You may well be right. We'll keep an eye on that part.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:57 pm

I'm glad a transition timer is being added. I can't stand being pushed through transitions by my own summons, or the spawn point for a transition being in such a place that it forces me through the transition again. This is a huge quality of life change, thank you.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Cuchilla » Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:02 pm

I like game mechanics before DM interventions. And what's suggested here seems reasonable. I also like your observations on how mass PvP often turns bad, really bad.

The few times I've participated in mass PvP, I felt tempted to participate in the first part, and then just let my char get killed when mass killing started. Respawn. Life went on!

Looking forward to see how the system will work.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Curve » Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:21 pm

I'm with this,
Cuchilla wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:02 pm
I like game mechanics before DM interventions. And what's suggested here seems reasonable. I also like your observations on how mass PvP often turns bad, really bad.
Aside from that I really enjoy PvP and doing PvP in a fun way. When I get into group PvP I lose autonomy, the ability to control how things end after PvP and with it the ability to try and make cool things happen. Group PvP feels like playing catch up and I always walked away feeling like things did not go the way I wanted them to go. So, I don't participate in group PvP, gank squads and so on. I still PvP, and I still heavily participate in conflict-based RP. I just don't do so with a team, or guild or whatever.

It makes me feel bad, so I don't do it.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Sincra » Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:26 pm

Double transitioning being removed is worth a slight inconvenience imo.

What it enables after that to help stop pvp issues is a double win.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:40 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:44 pm
Dr. B wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:40 pm
I agree with all the points re: Mass PvP being generally toxic.

Regarding a six second cooldown on area transitions: this just doesn't sound worth the tediousness it's going to cause. Looking for a merchant and went into the wrong building? Gotta wait six seconds. Took a wrong turn in the Weald caves? Gotta wait six seconds. Accidentally transitioned while your friend is being wrecked by spawns? Gotta wait six seconds. I really don't think the general headache will be worth the benefits.
You may well be right. We'll keep an eye on that part.
It sounds like a positive side effect would be an end to accidental clicks on transitions bouncing you back and forth in doorways etc which cause 30+ seconds of load screen each time… That’s more annoying to me than occasionally waiting 6 seconds if you go in the wrong building.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:28 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:57 pm
I'm glad a transition timer is being added. I can't stand being pushed through transitions by my own summons, or the spawn point for a transition being in such a place that it forces me through the transition again. This is a huge quality of life change, thank you.
I agree with this.
And 6 seconds isn't a long time in the slightest.


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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Void » Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:59 pm

Well there are reasons why I avoid pvp. One is that I'd get destroyed, and the other because pvp emotions can bleed from character back to the player.

Transition invulnerability is a good thing, because even in PvE it is common to get g anked by enemies that swarmed the door. I'm not sure if transition cooldown. Would make sense to reduce it to 3 seconds, I think.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Skibbles » Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:44 pm

It's certainly not going to solve all the problems but I think Arelith could use a very rudimentary system to simulate systems of ramification like crime/punishment/etc.

The system doesn't need to be complex or even greatly impactful, but I think having some mechanical options might get people to sort of subconsciously think outside the box and recognize that death or total character annihilation isn't the only punishment one can deliver.

Sometimes it feels like that funny snippet from Parks and Rec with how often murder is proscribed as the consequence for everything.

I'm not saying this is a conscious effort by players to make others miserable, but we all get tunnel vision sometimes I think.

I just think it would be cool if tensions could be more meaningfully depressurized via more mundane means, and I think that would have a positive impact on player relations.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Eyeliner » Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:02 am

I'm not against that but I think the culture of disposable characters is part of the problem. When the motivation for long term investment isn't there and so many of us are rolling new ones every month or two you hear "I was going to delete anyway" after a big loss instead of encouraging a character to face IG repercussions or other difficulties.

That aside more methods of punishment would be interesting, though I only think they'll work if it's at least half as fun to accept your punishment as it is to be the one doling it out. Whatever the system is punishing the player as well as punishing the character would be a huge mistake.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by fading » Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:03 am

The 6 second transition worries me.. I wouldn't want to accidentally, or foolishly, walk into a cave full of enemies I'm not prepared to fight and not have the option to run the way I came. I think we should be careful with damaging the pve aspects of the server for the sake of pvp.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Drowboy » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:08 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:02 am
I'm not against that but I think the culture of disposable characters is part of the problem. When the motivation for long term investment isn't there and so many of us are rolling new ones every month or two you hear "I was going to delete anyway" after a big loss instead of encouraging a character to face IG repercussions or other difficulties.

That aside more methods of punishment would be interesting, though I only think they'll work if it's at least half as fun to accept your punishment as it is to be the one doling it out. Whatever the system is punishing the player as well as punishing the character would be a huge mistake.
I've felt for a while like the combination of easy, easy leveling, and rather predictable reward chances (some of which are mechanically, if not optimal, then 'slightly better') has done something, not necessarily good, to Arelith's general culture, honestly.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Curve » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:17 am

I agree with the above. Ease of leveling, ease of gearing, a pandemic maybe. I don’t know all the causes but there is an issue with disposable characters and stories.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:44 am

Drowboy wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:08 am
Eyeliner wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:02 am
I'm not against that but I think the culture of disposable characters is part of the problem. When the motivation for long term investment isn't there and so many of us are rolling new ones every month or two you hear "I was going to delete anyway" after a big loss instead of encouraging a character to face IG repercussions or other difficulties.

That aside more methods of punishment would be interesting, though I only think they'll work if it's at least half as fun to accept your punishment as it is to be the one doling it out. Whatever the system is punishing the player as well as punishing the character would be a huge mistake.
I've felt for a while like the combination of easy, easy leveling, and rather predictable reward chances (some of which are mechanically, if not optimal, then 'slightly better') has done something, not necessarily good, to Arelith's general culture, honestly.
I absolutely agree.
I've found myself not even bothering to form deep connections with other PCs, unless they are Major Award races, because I know the culture now has shifted towards speed-running your character to the epics and then roll and move on to the next. There's little point to forming lasting relationships. Except for people you know and regularly play with, there's no guarantee that the player characters you are otherwise interested in telling a story with are going to be there tomorrow.


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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Amateur Hour » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:48 am

I feel like this can go both ways. If you have to invest a lot of effort in a character to get them into a kinda-good spot, it can be a lot harder for you to "take the loss" when something bad happens to your character because it represents more of you-the-player's effort down the drain, and frankly, I don't know whether enough of the player base has the presence of mind or natural empathy to realize that would go for every player on the server. There's going to be good and bad with any approach.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Red_Wharf » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:44 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:57 pm
I'm glad a transition timer is being added. I can't stand being pushed through transitions by my own summons, or the spawn point for a transition being in such a place that it forces me through the transition again. This is a huge quality of life change, thank you.
Yes, this, oh my god, yes. I've once been sent back and forth through the Soulhaven - Guldorand area transition three times against my will, three! This would be such a huge quality of life update.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Morgy » Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:30 am

I'm keen to see how the transition changes will impact gameplay as normal and pvp! Thanks for looking into solutions, as pursuing players diving back and forth between transitions every few seconds was really quite frustrating!

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Watchful Glare » Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:33 am

I'm really pleased to see the 6 second transition wait period. Really looking forward to that. That was so annoying to deal with, and also almost impossible to prove.

As a bonus no one will have to deal with that issue where you bounce between transitions accidentally, or a character getting trapped in a loop.

Thank you for looking into solutions!
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Edens_Fall » Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:19 pm

I well thought out post as is expected of our Irongron. I agree with the changes and am glad the reminders where spelled out.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by UilliamNebel » Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:20 pm

Personally, have had the hostile interactions issue go well beyond PvP. I think the PvP issues are more a recurring symptom, than the actual issue itself. I wish the Arelith community best of luck in finding the new norm with the design focus changing to an experiment in fast leveling, PvP driven narrative, and character turnovers of weeks to try address that as a perceived issue of the server stagnating in some way. For myself, I would say the server has moved away from being as RP a based one, with the foundation built on D&D 3.x Forgotten Realms lore, that when coupled with the years plus OOC hostilities, has demonstrated to myself that a pen and paper like socializing experience of D&D is just not possible on a PW. People think it is a knock when I say things on PWs have degenerated to social media during an election cycle, but it is not, it is a social norm of the now.

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